So I just saw Fahrenheit 9/11

[Mcwop]

Originally posted by divegirl
Does anyone besides me see the blatant connection here? You have just stated an opinion, and may be the epitome of, the typical (stupid) American. Not saying you are, but the connection here is this: You call him an idiot, yet you won't see any of his movies, and self-admittedly say you missed a bunch of stuff he said. But you still call him an idiot. If you haven't seen the evidence (maybe you've read about the facts he presents??), then how can you call him an idiot???

Just had to point this out.

That is like someone saying that you can't call Rush Limbaugh an idiot if you don't listen to his show every day.

[mr_gyptian]

Originally posted by glademaster
I don't want to start a mud-slinging contest here, but East Germany was the communist nation that adjusted well, not West Germany. One of the reasons that Eastern Europe has managed to embrace democracy with few exceptions is the fact that the people there wanted democracy and were not being occupied by a foreign nation who is trying to force upon them our ideals. I am not saying that there aren't Iraqi's who want democracy, there certainly are, but there are plenty of Iraqi's in high places who would much rather see Iraq remain some kind of dictatorship. Is this right? hell no, is it what may be best for right now, possibly yes. With the exception of Israel and Pakistan, there are no democratic states in the Middle East. Why this is the case I don't know, but it seems as though democracy and its ideals have never taken hold in the region and people don't particularly want them to.

I'm enjoying this thread so far because it has not become a negatively toned pissing contest, lets keep it from turning into one.

-Ben

I didn't think you were saying that. But I was referencing West Germany back in the late 40s and early 50s. To say they adjusted well is an understatement. It took a while. I believe about seven years. Today the reunited Germany is one of the world's best examples of a democracy. If you look back the intelligensia was saying that democracy wouldn't take hold in Eastern Europe. 15 years later, who is right?

[DaveTV]

Mr. Gyptian: Mind telling us your age and military service history? THX

[mr_gyptian]

27 and I only made it to Webelo.

[glademaster]

Well said Mr. Gyptian, keep in mind that I'm only 15 and am going into 10th grade next year. My knowledge of history is not quite as great as yours and other maggots. I love this country and make no bones about that; however, I disagree vehemently with this war and the choices made by our leaders over the past few years. Depite my love of this nation, I feel no desire to serve it in any capacity, especially not militarily. To those who feel the desire to serve, I salute you and pray for your safety, but I want it known that I would not support a conflict that I would not be willing to fight, kill and die for myself, and therein lies the reason why I diagree with this war.

-Ben

[DaveTV]

So: You choose to stay and play(safe) in Summit County than to join the Army and put your money where your mouth is?? OK if OTHERS are getting blown up - it's not you, aye? No more skiing when the IUD blows both legs off..

[glademaster]

Originally posted by DaveTV
So: You choose to stay and play(safe) in Summit County than to join the Army and put your money where your mouth is?? OK if OTHERS are getting blown up - it's not you, aye? No more skiing when the IUD blows both legs off..

I'm assuming this is directed at Mr. Gyptian, but if any of it is meant for me, please refer to the last sentence of my previous post, my beliefs are laid out in a very straightforward manner right there. Peace.

-Ben

[Woodsy]

so hows the skiing sequence?!?

sick right?
'thats why y'all are having this debate here & not in the Movie forum or on CNN.com.......

[Dexter Rutecki]

Originally posted by DaveTV
No more skiing when the IUD blows both legs off..

I don't know about his uterus, but do you mean IED?

[mr_gyptian]

Originally posted by DaveTV
So: You choose to stay and play(safe) in Summit County than to join the Army and put your money where your mouth is?? OK if OTHERS are getting blown up - it's not you, aye? No more skiing when the IUD blows both legs off..

I paid for some Puerto Rican to go in my stead. joking aside, I fail to see the relevance. You cannot support a war unless you go?

[Rusty Nails]

Originally posted by mr_gyptian
I paid for some Puerto Rican to go in my stead. joking aside, I fail to see the relevance. You cannot support a war unless you go?

You can, you just shouldn't be so fackin passionate about it. If you think it's the most important thing going on in the world today, why not make an actual contribution to your civilization and create your legacy? Oh yeah, I know, that might mean actually growing up and doing something... And Glademaster, don't let Mr. G's limited account of history and vague references to the "intelligensia" fool you, he's really rather naive and appears to have less of a clue than you.

[Woodsy]

Originally posted by Woodsy
so hows the skiing sequence?!?

sick right?
'thats why y'all are having this debate here & not in the Movie forum or on CNN.com.......

seriously,
whil I do value the interesting take our little snowsliding community has on this & other all over the place topics, people who consistantly post political threads here & naught else are scared to enter the real political forums where the well informed & highly passionate dwell.

kind of like talking about what a rippin skier you are on a polical forum, comapred to your peers there you would be; here you 'ld be a gaper like moi.

[glademaster]

Rusty Nails, thanks for the compliments, I would agree that the issues surrounding the war and occupation are very important to the world and could have major impacts, either negative or positive on the lives of all of us. I would argue that it is more likely for the impacts upon America to be negative, and anything that causes the American people to suffer while those in charge get rich is outrageous and sickening to me. I don't want to force my views upon others, but this is what is going on, whether you like it or not, and its time to realize that and vote Dubya the hell out of office, I can't. Will Kerry be any better/different, I don't know, but at least the man can pronounce the word "nuclear" properly.

-Ben

[schuss]

its just another point of view out there. None of these movies are gospel or anything, but they do put issues at the forefront that should be there. If you're talking about it and thinking about it critically, the movie has done its job. Regardless of your opinion on the matter, at least its better than talking about crappy rehash sitcoms.

[hot_sauce]

Originally posted by mr_gyptian
out of curiosity, Ben, why can't there be a democracy in Iraq?

there can't be a democracy in Iraq that is meekly aquiescent to the desires of the White House, Pentegon, and State Department, and freely gives all the oil profits to corporations like Haliburton in exchange for support in maintaining power (and not being marked for "regime change") from the world's superpower because that is not the definition of democracy...
Maybe I'm ignorant, but I always thought that in a democracy you look for support in maintaining power from the people of your own country

but then I guess it depends who you ask...

After the recent Bush administration and CIA aided and orchestrated coup in Venezuala (which just so happens to be the worlds 4th leading oil producer) where the democratically elected (and very popular) president was kidnapped by military leaders lead by the chief of the confederation of business and industry, who promply declared himself "president" with the enthusiastic support of the president of the Bankers' Associatioin... the crowd of elite supporters at his "inaguration" had the gall to chant "Democracia! Democracia!..."

After this little charade failed in part due to incredibly massive demonstrations by the people who had actually voted for the president, The Bush administration slightly embarrased at their not-so-succesful early attemt at regime change, yet with no less contempt for the democratically elected and independent minded Latin American leader were quick to let him know that (and I really couldn't make this up, Bush may not be fit to be commander in chief, but I might vote for him on "Last Comic Standing") "Legitimacy is something that is conferred not just by a majority of the voters"

[iceman]

Originally posted by Woodsy
seriously,
whil I do value the interesting take our little snowsliding community has on this & other all over the place topics, people who consistantly post political threads here & naught else are scared to enter the real political forums where the well informed & highly passionate dwell.

kind of like talking about what a rippin skier you are on a polical forum, comapred to your peers there you would be; here you 'ld be a gaper like moi.

Right on, Woodsy

"Oh, I used to be disgusted,
Now I try to be amused."

[hot_sauce]

Originally posted by mr_gyptian
I trust you're not saying that Iraqi's are not genetically disposed to forming a democracy.

if you could only trust the same about your pal Bill

Originally posted by mr_gyptian
Though I do not understand your assertion regarding a people's need for totalitarian governance.

and I sooo thought he'd touched on something you'd finally understand

[The AD]

Originally posted by Rusty Nails
You can, you just shouldn't be so fackin passionate about it. If you think it's the most important thing going on in the world today, why not make an actual contribution to your civilization and create your legacy? Oh yeah, I know, that might mean actually growing up and doing something...

BOTY (Burn of the Year)

[snowsprite]

I saw this last night...definitely worth seeing IMO!

He really had me until about 3/4 through, then I felt it got embarrassingly bleeding-heart.

He should have just stayed with the focus on the Bush-Saudi connection and the Bush response to 9-11. He started mixing in
too much other liberal agenda stuff in there, and I feel that weakened the film's impact.

I think the last scene in the movie kicked ass. I couldn't stop laughing! Awesome tune too. I heart Neil Young!

Sprite

[Plakespear]

Originally posted by glademaster
I don't want to start a mud-slinging contest here, but East Germany was the communist nation that adjusted well, not West Germany.

I actually thought he meant they adjusted well to life after the Nazis. But for the record, Hitler was democratically elected.

One of the reasons that Eastern Europe has managed to embrace democracy with few exceptions is the fact that the people there wanted democracy and were not being occupied by a foreign nation who is trying to force upon them our ideals.

Actually, E. Europe was occupied by a foreign nation who was trying to force upon them their ideals. That country was called the USSR. Ask your history teacher about the uprisings in Hungary and Czechoslovakia in the 50's and 60's.

[summit]

Originally posted by Walter Sobchak
You don't think Ann Coulter (leftists should be tried for treason), Rush Limbaugh (too much to mention), or Jerry Falwell (blamed feminists, among others, for 9/11) at least warrant a tie? Or to swing back to the other side of the pendulum, how about Ted Rall? Are you even capable of seeing that Moore has many counterparts on the right, and that you (and I too) simply prefer, to put it bluntly, the stink of our own shit?

Breathless hyperbole doesn't suit you. You're better off sticking to one sentence followed by a cut-and-paste.

You could lock Al Franken and Moore in a room with Coulter, Limbaugh, and Falwell, wait a week, and you'd find an even fatter and more slovenly Moore and a rather large pile of bones... on the other hand he might have died eating Ann "Flabby Arm Skank" Coulter... dogs usually choke on chicken bones. On the other hand he might die of an painkiller vicarous overdose after eating Rush, fall over, and smoosh Ann. Anyway, there'd be less annoying people in the world and that would make me, an exceedingly annoying person, laugh.

[DaveTV]

Summit, I trust you are posting from here, huh?
Last winter: dropping five foot cliffs
This winter: dropping five foot Iraqis

[summit]

Originally posted by DaveTV
Summit, I trust you are posting from here, huh?
Last winter: dropping five foot cliffs
This winter: dropping five foot Iraqis

I'm totally gonna schralp the sand dunes! I'll do a switch back off a demolished Iraqi parking structure, shooting insurgents the whole time I'm spinning!

... funny cartoon btw (or was that in the other post?)
the moon is floating away from the earth (orbit growing)... thought he would have Lockeed Martin develop NMR (national moon retention - giant space lasso!) for many billions of dollars

edit: oh it was in the other post... here

Originally posted by DaveTV
http://www.salon.com/comics/tomo/200...tomo/story.jpg

[SLCFreshies]

You conservatives have Fox News, Rush, and Ann. We liberals have Michael Moore, The New York Times, and RANDOM amusing e-mails!

This may have been posted before, I dunno. And no, I did not fact-check it all.

Enjoy (either reading it, or Googling every point to find stuff to disprove).

--------------------------------------------------

GEORGE W. BUSH

1600 Pennsylvania Avenue
Washington, DC 20520

EDUCATION AND EXPERIENCE:

Law Enforcement:
I was arrested in Kennebunkport, Maine, in 1976 for driving under the influence of alcohol. I pled guilty, paid a fine, and had my driver's license suspended for 30 days.

My Texas driving record has been "lost" and is not available.

Military:
I joined the Texas Air National Guard and went AWOL. I refused to take a drug test or answer any questions about my drug use. By joining the Texas Air National Guard, I was able to avoid combat duty in Vietnam.

College:
I graduated from Yale University with a low C average.

I was a cheerleader.


PAST WORK EXPERIENCE:

I ran for U.S. Congress and lost.

I began my career in the oil business in Midland, Texas in 1975. I bought an oil company, but couldn't find any oil in Texas. The company went bankrupt shortly after I sold all my stock.

I bought the Texas Rangers baseball team in a sweetheart deal that took land using taxpayer money.

With the help of my father and our friends in the oil industry (including Enron CEO Ken Lay), I was elected governor of Texas.


ACCOMPLISHMENTS AS GOVERNOR OF TEXAS:

I changed Texas pollution laws to favor power and oil companies, making Texas the most polluted state in the Union. During my tenure, Houston replaced Los Angeles as the most smog-ridden city in America.

I cut taxes and bankrupted the Texas treasury to the tune of billions in borrowed money.

I set the record for the most executions by any governor in American history.

With the help of my brother, the governor of Florida, and my father's appointments to the Supreme Court, I became President after losing by over 500,000 votes.


ACCOMPLISHMENTS AS PRESIDENT:

I am the first President in U.S. history to enter office with a criminal record.

I invaded and occupied two countries at a continuing cost of over one billion dollars per week.

I spent the U.S. surplus and effectively bankrupted the U.S. Treasury.

I shattered the record for the largest annual deficit in U.S. history.

I set an economic record for most private bankruptcies filed in any 12-month period.

I set the all-time record for most foreclosures in a 12-month period.

I set the all-time record for the biggest drop in the history of the U.S. stock market.

In my first year in office, over 2 million Americans lost their jobs and that trend continues every month.

I'm proud that the members of my cabinet are the richest of any administration in U.S. history. My "poorest millionaire," Condoleeza Rice, has a Chevron oil tanker named after her.

I set the record for most campaign fund-raising trips by a U.S. President.

I am the all-time U.S. and world record-holder for receiving the most corporate campaign donations.

One of my best friends, Kenneth Lay, presided over the largest corporate bankruptcy fraud in U.S. History, Enron.

My political party used Enron private jets and corporate attorneys to assure my success with the U.S. Supreme Court during my election decision.

I have protected my friends at Enron and Halliburton against investigation or prosecution. More time and money was spent investigating the Monica Lewinsky affair than has been spent investigating one of the biggest corporate rip-offs in history.

I presided over the biggest energy crisis in U.S. history and refused to intervene when corruption involving the oil industry was revealed.

I presided over the highest gasoline prices in U.S. history.

I changed the U.S. policy to allow convicted criminals to be awarded government contracts.



I appointed more convicted criminals to administration than any President in U.S. history.

I created the Ministry of Homeland Security, the largest bureaucracy in the history of the United States government.

I've broken more international treaties than any President in U.S. history.

I am the first President in U.S. history to have the United Nations remove the U.S. from the Human Rights Commission.

I withdrew the U.S. from the World Court of Law.

I refused to allow inspector's access to U.S. "prisoners of war" detainees and thereby have refused to abide by the Geneva Convention.

I am the first President in history to refuse United Nations election inspectors (during the 2002 U.S. election).

I set the record for fewest numbers of press conferences of any President since the advent of television.

I set the all-time record for most days on vacation in any one-year period. After taking off the entire month of August, I presided over the worst security failure in U.S. history.

I garnered the most sympathy for the U.S. after the World Trade Center attacks and less than a year later made the U.S. the most hated country in the world, the largest failure of diplomacy in world history.

I have set the all-time record for most people worldwide to simultaneously protest me in public venues (15 million people), shattering the record for protests against any person in the history of mankind.

I am the first President in U.S. history to order an unprovoked, pre-emptive attack and the military occupation of a sovereign nation. I did so against the will of the United Nations, the majority of U.S. citizens, and the world community.

I have cut health care benefits for war veterans and support a cut in duty benefits for active duty troops and their families -- in wartime.

In my State of the Union Address, I lied about our reasons for attacking Iraq and then blamed the lies on our British friends.

I am the first President in history to have a majority of Europeans (71%) view my presidency as the biggest threat to world peace and security.

I am supporting development of a nuclear "Tactical Bunker Buster," a WMD.

I have so far failed to fulfill my pledge to bring Osama Bin Laden to justice.

During the Iraq War and Occupation thousands of American troops were injured and killed. I did not have the time to attend any of the funerals for our fallen soldiers but I did have the time to attend more than 43 fund-raising events of the Republican party.


RECORDS AND REFERENCES:

All records of my tenure as governor of Texas are now in my father's library, sealed and unavailable for public view.

All records of SEC investigations into my insider trading and my bankrupt companies are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view.

All records or minutes from meetings that I, or my Vice-President, attended regarding public energy policy are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public review.

PLEASE CONSIDER MY EXPERIENCE WHEN VOTING IN 2004.

[snowsprite]

Originally posted by SLCFreshies
I was a cheerleader...

PLEASE CONSIDER MY EXPERIENCE WHEN VOTING IN 2004.

Well, first I'd have to know for sure: lifter or lift-ee?

Sprite