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  1. #276
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    Vibes. Hopefully you heal up quick and find clarity and solutions to the problems youíve been dealing with the past few years.

  2. #277
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    BumpÖso much good info in this thread! Moral of the story is aging sucks, no matter how fit you are! I thought Grinch was just an e-bike evangelist, turns out he is a fountain of information on all things spine related! Great info! Thanks to everyone who posts in this thread! Very helpful for those of us just starting our inevitable decline and wanting to learn to modify, moderate or diversify to keep moving! And vibes to all of us gimps that are in the physiological battle that is nerve pain from back injury!!


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  3. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by hick View Post
    BumpÖso much good info in this thread! Moral of the story is aging sucks, no matter how fit you are! I thought Grinch was just an e-bike evangelist, turns out he is a fountain of information on all things spine related! Great info! Thanks to everyone who posts in this thread! Very helpful for those of us just starting our inevitable decline and wanting to learn to modify, moderate or diversify to keep moving! And vibes to all of us gimps that are in the physiological battle that is nerve pain from back injury!!


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    I am glad any of that helped. I guess i have plenty enough time in to have a decent idea what works. At this point i can really empathize with anyones struggle. I flailed for a while not knowing what i was looking at and if/how i could continue biking/skiing. I'm usually kicking around if anyone has a question. For some reason i looked in here today. Its been a while

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  4. #279
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    Thatís good itís been a while! It probably means your back is good right now!!


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  5. #280
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    Haa nope but it hasnt taken a drastic turn. Building slow is key for me. 4500' touring day wrecked me but i bounced back more fit. Currently dialing it back a touch in hopes of building past that mark. Focusing on fun. A comfy/fun 5k back to back days for spring is where i want to be. If i cant , i cant. Keepin it fun and not overdoing it but i think i should have plenty of time

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  6. #281
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    I'm six months in a rubbing st. john's wort oil every fucking day on my C6 that collapsed enough to pinch the nerve and drive me crazy with pain down my right arm. No problems now. This is the second time I've done this. It took care of collapsed discs in my back and I feel like its gonna do it again. I posted this before but it's been quite obvious nobody else tried it. This is for you, grinch.

  7. #282
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    Oh thanks. Ill look into that. Always looking for a miracle. Im thinking the damage is done and its mostly maintenance at this point but thats worth a try.
    Good to see you back

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  8. #283
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    How in the fuck do you sleep with severe nerve pain!! This is my greatest struggle. Got an injection for my s1-l5 bulged disc 2 days ago. Pre injection and heavily drugged I could get 5 hrs or even more of sleep. Now 3 hours max, but, that may be due to ditching my cocktail of 2 gabapentin, 1 oxy, 5mg melatonin pre bedtime. I just hate putting all this shit in my body, but how in the hell does one heal when you canít sleep. This is completely unsustainable! Probably doesnít help that I believe the steroid injection is also giving me insomnia on top of the pain. What a fuckn shit sandwich.


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  9. #284
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    Have you tried 800mg ibuprofen with food before bed? Yeah pain sucks. I was on a cycle of the drug flexerile (sp?) that had me sleeping a couple hours and awake for four, repeat.

  10. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by cat in january View Post
    Have you tried 800mg ibuprofen with food before bed? Yeah pain sucks. I was on a cycle of the drug flexerile (sp?) that had me sleeping a couple hours and awake for four, repeat.
    Yeah, did that for a while then the nerve pain beat that back and it does what feels to be nothing. I think I just have to come to terms with it. Hard when youíre a person who loves their sleep!!


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  11. #286
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    Iíve found Aleve to be much better at the nerve pain in my back than Advil. Two Aleve twice a day helps me a lot when my back gets bad.

  12. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by hick View Post
    How in the fuck do you sleep with severe nerve pain!! This is my greatest struggle. Got an injection for my s1-l5 bulged disc 2 days ago. Pre injection and heavily drugged I could get 5 hrs or even more of sleep. Now 3 hours max, but, that may be due to ditching my cocktail of 2 gabapentin, 1 oxy, 5mg melatonin pre bedtime. I just hate putting all this shit in my body, but how in the hell does one heal when you canít sleep. This is completely unsustainable! Probably doesnít help that I believe the steroid injection is also giving me insomnia on top of the pain. What a fuckn shit sandwich.


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    Man! Not going to pretend i have any answers for your current situation but ill fire out some things i saw and did.
    Back when i had declined after an incident i was sent to the "pain clinic", only because i lived in the town that had it. That was my last "work" incident , almost 20 yrs ago, before i made the injury my primary focus. Ive been able to build and have tools to maintain such that i havent missed any work since then, between rest days, stretching, walking, stability exercises, and POSTURE. Posture is often the cause of these injuries. Twisting, lifting improperly, imobility, sitting slumped,poor mattress etc
    When i went to the pain clinic most where there in the "chronic" program. I was there for a typical "return to work" program. I was a chron but i guess their definitions differ from mine .
    It was interesting. The "chronics" were made to show up once a year fror a 6 week evaluation. Their injuries were generally insurance based. It could be work or car accident. They were all hooked on those oxy's. They handed all their prescriptions in and were given methadone while they did their physio evaluation. We all start with a full body stretch each morning, followed by stationary bike or walking machine, followed by exercises focused on the injury. Back injuries did the stabilizer exercises. Electricution injuries or cut nerves worked on sensory/feeling exercises(maybe try and feel out the nuts or small bolts amongst a jar of marbles etc), one guy missing a leg had phantom leg pain. Pain in a leg that wasnt there. He exercised his one leg watching it in a mirror trying to trick his brain into believing he was moving his missing leg. It can be successful apparently.


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  13. #288
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    At the end of the 6 weeks if they were deemed still "chronic" they were given their oxy's and sent home for another year. I watched them improve while they were there and im sure they still had pain. The ones that continued with a program were the motivated ones. You could tell early who wanted to get moving and who would be successful. Its generally a long game. I met some inspiring people and i also saw how strong those oxy's are both in mind and body. I cant say no one should take them but i would try a lot of other avenues before i considered them. I saw some wierd shit from otherwise normal next neighbor people.
    For me in the early days or when im building and get to my current big exercise day i set every thing up to be able to do my stretches, exercises and a short walk. That could mean looong hot shower, tub, hottub first. Extra strength ibuprofin(muscle relaxant) and very very rarely a t3(almost never). If i have a back muscle pull it will just be the hot soak and a walk. I dont want to lay down too long. Things go sideways then. Repeat the soak and small walk. Some type of safe movement. Small muscle tears can take 2-3 days to heal so i can resume stretching and stabilizer exercises. Mostly 3 days so plan for 3 days of hot shower/hot tub soaks followed by short walks(2-300 ft) maybe 2-4 times daily. If you feel you can do a light stretch and simple stability exercises after 2 days do a bit and see. Stretches shouldnt focus on how much your getting out of each strtch but rather that your not stretching too far. A lot of people can reinjure trying to stretch too deep or improperly. If you just do it lightly you can build over time as you get a bettrr feeling on how far you can go and be consistent in doing it properly and keep your spine stable while doing it. Little stretches make a big difference. The fact that your just doing little ones will help. Over time you'll do more but dont rush that. So your hot tub/shower and ibupro set you up for the light stretches and they all set you up for your stability exercises. All those are done with the goal of keeping your spine straight and your stabilizer muscles flexed in order to keep your spine staight. Theyre not lifting exercises per se, all though you may incorporate small lifts. Theyre more about repitition. You are repeatedly consciously thinking "flex my stabilizers with my back aligned and hold" then "do the rep" and repeat. Very simple low weight bearing exercises. The gosl is to consciously fire your stabilizer muscles to keep your back stable and aligned. Its all about mileage. How many reps you can do by consciiusly firing those stabilizers. You are training your brain to eventually fire your stabilizer muscles intuitively so every time you do something in your daly life whether it be sitting, standing , lifting, skiing etc your stabilizers intuitively lock the spine from injury. Eventually the injury will align and be protected. Over time it will be more protected if you keep at it and dont do too much. 2 yrs without going into spasm is a goal that pays huge dividends. It takes 2 yrs for tendons to shrink back to normal and that gives a big added level of support at that point. Thats why skiers thumb hurts for almost 2 yrs. Tendons just take that long to de stretch. Walking is great for alignment. Thats what our body is designed to do. For that reason i stuck to touring for a few years. I did 20+ light days the first year then 35ish the next, making sure to take "atleast" a day off in between. Too many dynamic recoveries with the higher speeds of a ski hill combined with the higher speeds and sudden not soft bump. I can ski at the hill much more now but the skin track was/is a great stability exercise. Youre constantly firing your stabilizers every step while youre looking for traction. I try and think prep. "What can i do to get to the next level safely". Sometimes its a bunch of tiny things that i can do safely and it just leads to the next tiny thing. Its all a goal to get to something fun. If you get to something fun. Thats the best drug. All those tiny things are your tools to get you to the fun. Skiing/biking. And here it is, the ebikes is an amazing tool. Blood flow is a great healer.
    My stability exercises are soo simple but theyre ez to do and thats the point. Ez to get a bunch of reps. 1) laying on my back on my mat i flex my stabilizers and roll one way 45⁰ 10x, then roll 45⁰ 10x the other way. The goal is that the hip and shoulder roll to 45⁰ at the same time. One doesnt get to 45⁰ before the other. Flexing your stabilizers and keeping your spine stable accomplishes that. 2. Lay on my back on the mat i put both heels on my exercise ball do a plank and then lift one foot for 25 seconds while flexing my stabilizers and keeping my back stable 10x each side(you can let are out of the ball to make it easier and you may want to wait a few weeks to add this one) 3. Lay on my foam roller with the foam roller under your spine from hip to head, put hands outstretched above your head suspended off the ground with your heels shoulder width straight legged touching the floor then flex your stabilizers now lift one foot a couple inches off the floor and the opposite arm crossed on your chest and balance for 25 seconds. Go back and forth alternating sides for 25 seconds each. This is great for relief too. Its easier if you put the foam roller on the mat to start. Eventually youll just have to foam roller on the floor. Youll get it. Those 3 exerercises for the most part work on your "trans abdominal muscles". Again, repitition and a straight stable spine is key.
    4. Is a magic exercise that only one physio showed me and its the only one that focused on the tiny stabilizer muscles that connect each vertabrae. Each vertabrae has a tiny muscle on each side of the spinal cord connecting/stabilizing the vertabrae. Each muscle is about the size of one of the segments of your finger. For this exercise i lay on my stomach on the mat with arms stretched shoulder width above my head and legs spread shoulder width. No swinging i lift one hand and opposite leg/foot 1 inch off the mat and hold for 25 seconds and switch and repeat 10x. In the early days or if i have a set back i do 3 or 4 sets of those. 2 sets of stretches in the morning followed by 2 sets of those exercises and then 2 sets of each after supper.
    Stretches are a cautious approach. I like to isolate any strain from my back so i dont pull with my arms if im stretching my legs for instance. I like using my bike seat a lot. With my seat low(you want something lower to start, possibly much lower, and never start hamstring stretch witb your foot above the hip) i rest my foot/back of my ankle/achilles area on my saddle from one side and just let the weight of my body bending at the hip stretch my hamstring and not pulling with my arm, same for quads ill face away from the bike and bend my foot up onto the saddle and let my body weight stretch my quad, glute stretch i take extra caution and do it lightly. I ll be laying on my mat and pull one knee up across my stretch and try and get a little stretch on one glute side then the other. Because im pulling with my arm on my bent leg to do it i really focus on keeoing my spine straight and doing it slow and ez and build as i feel safe. Then the final stretch is cats and dogs stretches for the stomach and back. Sometimes i may take a shower before i do the glute and cats and dogs. Shower to be safe on the glutecstretch and the shower limbers me up enough to get a good cats and dogs stretch. I hold those for 25 seconds 10x as well. Thats my daily. Back at the time i would just do little exercises all day. Flex the stabilizer than the rep for whatever exercise i was doing. Eg. Tiny barebell sitting on the ball, flex the stabilizers back straight and do overhead press or ball in your back against the wall flex the stabilizers back straight arm curls. The focus is never on weight bearing. Its on repitition and flexing the stabilizer and posture. Thousands and thosands of times . Youre training your brain to fird tge stabilizers automatically. When its automatic your brain will just be training those musvles for you in everything you do. You just have to do things with the right posture and even that can be trainedcinto the brain.
    I think thats all i got and its probably a repeat but maybe a reread can help. Any questions fire me a pm. I can empathize with anyone going thru with this. Just know it will get better. I guarantee it

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  14. #289
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    It will get better, Hick. Hang in there. Iím also open to PMs and Iím here to empathize about the painó that shit can get dark.

    Iím coming out of a difficult couple years, my worst in almost a decade, and Iíll write more about my experiences some time soon.

    I agree with quite a few of the takeaways from this book:

    https://www.amazon.com/Crooked-Outwi...5874600&sr=8-1

  15. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by splat View Post
    I'm six months in a rubbing st. john's wort oil every fucking day on my C6 that collapsed enough to pinch the nerve and drive me crazy with pain down my right arm. No problems now. This is the second time I've done this. It took care of collapsed discs in my back and I feel like its gonna do it again. I posted this before but it's been quite obvious nobody else tried it. This is for you, grinch.
    Where do you get yours from? I see a lot of varying prices. $62 on amazon(i think thats 2 bottles) all the way down to $12. I dont mind paying the higher end of that if its more effective i guess

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  16. #291
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    You guy fucking rock!! Iím a part time physical therapist assistant so I am familiar with everything youíre saying Grinch, but itís extremely helpful to get laymanís terminology and refreshed from someone whoís living it not just a young DPT who doesnít get the pain. Ya, the pain killers scare the shit out of me, donít like them but my compassion for those that are hooked is stronger now. I totally see how it happens. Thrashing around with 7,8, or even 9 out of 10 nerve pain night after night has one thinking, fuck it, Iíd do anything to get relief!! I see my PT again tomorrow morning early. Iím eager to get more guidance. Iíve totally over researched all of this and am just spinning with everything I could, should or donít want to do. Overwhelming amount of information out there. Definitely need guidance. Iíve had a lot of patients with similar issues the last 5 years, but you guys have the useful feedback because youíre fellow outdoors people who live a similar life and can relate. Tough when your patients are usually late aged TV watching folks who have just given up and donít have any passions theyíre missing. Iíll give the Aleve a try, get some St Johnís Wort to try the Splat method and keep working those transverse abdominals, and those tiny spinalis muscles (I think these are the little guys youíre referring to GrinchÖ).


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  17. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by Self Jupiter View Post
    It will get better, Hick. Hang in there. I’m also open to PMs and I’m here to empathize about the pain— that shit can get dark.

    I’m coming out of a difficult couple years, my worst in almost a decade, and I’ll write more about my experiences some time soon.

    I agree with quite a few of the takeaways from this book:

    https://www.amazon.com/Crooked-Outwi...5874600&sr=8-1
    i'm gonna grab that book

    while i'm not particularly into the industry takedown aspect, i am interested in the "what does work" elements

    [currently sitting in town while my kid went to the hill to get a powder day cuz my back is eff'ed yet again...]

  18. #293
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    Bulged/Herniated Disc advice?

    Quote Originally Posted by ::: ::: View Post
    i'm gonna grab that book

    while i'm not particularly into the industry takedown aspect, i am interested in the "what does work" elements

    [currently sitting in town while my kid went to the hill to get a powder day cuz my back is eff'ed yet again...]
    The author encourages the back-pain- experienced reader skip that part in the intro iirc. I went back and and read lot of it, mostly out of a personal curiosity to follow her care timeline that begins a couple years before mine started in the early 2010s. Some interesting stuff in thereó I almost forgot how many opioids I was prescribed when I first started having issues, thankfully they were never effective and I hated the way they made me feel.

    Iíve been back on snow for a couple weeks and it feels really good to connect the work in the gym to a dynamic, fun outdoor activity like skiing. Probably wonít get into Alpental-level shape this season!
    Last edited by Self Jupiter; Yesterday at 03:53 PM.

  19. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by hick View Post
    You guy fucking rock!! Iím a part time physical therapist assistant so I am familiar with everything youíre saying Grinch, but itís extremely helpful to get laymanís terminology and refreshed from someone whoís living it not just a young DPT who doesnít get the pain. Ya, the pain killers scare the shit out of me, donít like them but my compassion for those that are hooked is stronger now. I totally see how it happens. Thrashing around with 7,8, or even 9 out of 10 nerve pain night after night has one thinking, fuck it, Iíd do anything to get relief!! I see my PT again tomorrow morning early. Iím eager to get more guidance. Iíve totally over researched all of this and am just spinning with everything I could, should or donít want to do. Overwhelming amount of information out there. Definitely need guidance. Iíve had a lot of patients with similar issues the last 5 years, but you guys have the useful feedback because youíre fellow outdoors people who live a similar life and can relate. Tough when your patients are usually late aged TV watching folks who have just given up and donít have any passions theyíre missing. Iíll give the Aleve a try, get some St Johnís Wort to try the Splat method and keep working those transverse abdominals, and those tiny spinalis muscles (I think these are the little guys youíre referring to GrinchÖ).


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    A yes, spinalis looks to be them. The physio was an ex nationap team xc skier from Canmore. Really good physio. Easily tge best out of many ive seen. She's the only physio that gave me an exercise for those muscles. Like you say, she realized i wanted to be active. Most docs and pt's appreciate that. Obviously pain meds are necessary sometimes or for some people but theyre most definitely over prescribed and really do nothing to address the actual injury but then 8,9, or 10 level pain is pretty extreme. The aleve suggestion remind me that they were a relief for me a few times as well. Hopefjlly you can get the heniations aligned so theyre not pinching the nerve so bad and you can start building.I have my routine now and i generally avoid to much strain on my injury so ive managed to avoid pain meds for quite a while now. I just go back to my 3 days rest and showers and then ease into my methods if i overdue it and have an incident.
    As you know it'll take some focus and some struggles and doubt but , especially with your knowledge, i have no doubt you'll get back to skiing well.


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  20. #295
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    Those excercises that youíre doing are the same ones that really got me back on track a few years ago.

    For about ten years I was doing the PT exercises I got right after my injury, but finally found another PT (who was a skier, funnily enough) that got my little stabilizers firing again. I still get tweaks and flair ups but they are days long instead of months and I have occasional pain free stretches.

    Worlds better than the decade before

  21. #296
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    Awesome! Sounds like we're in a similar place. Nice to have those tools in your back pocket

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  22. #297
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    Quote Originally Posted by Supermoon View Post
    but finally found another PT (who was a skier, funnily enough) that got my little stabilizers firing again.
    Was that in SLC or in PDX?

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