Vaccinations and autism?

[hutash]

That sounds good in theory. But how do you suppose a simple dentist look into things further, read and understand all the scientific evidence, and come to a reasoned and well-supported conclusion that is somehow different that the widespread consensus among the medical professionals who actually study this stuff as their life's work?

This

This is a tough subject to sort through. Aside from the whole autism thing, simply trying to find NON-BIASED sources can be difficult. Just do a quick Google search. So many results seem to be both extreme positions with lots of people citing whatever they can to support their positions.

It is actually not difficult to do, stay off the internet where the majority of the information is opinion, and go read the professional journals. Better yet go ask a qualified MD who has been reading and studying this shit for years. We don't come up with recommendations by pulling them out of our ass, or ready about them on the internet. There is a reason professionals are professionals. Do you do a Google search before you get on an airliner to decide if the navigation systems or jet engine plans are adequate?

[old goat]

This



It is actually not difficult to do, stay off the internet where the majority of the information is opinion, and go read the professional journals. Better yet go ask a qualified MD who has been reading and studying this shit for years. We don't come up with recommendations by pulling them out of our ass, or ready about them on the internet. There is a reason professionals are professionals. Do you do a Google search before you get on an airliner to decide if the navigation systems or jet engine plans are adequate?

The web site of the National Library of Medicine --Pubmed--is free to the general public, references basically every refereed medical journal in the world, and is easily searchable. Most articles will have only abstracts available--full text articles are occasionally free but usually require paying the publisher. Or let Wikipedia do the work--medical articles on Wikipedia are usually very thorough, very up-to-date, and generally more free of bias than original journal articles. And if you are reading original articles the first thing to look at is the fine print at the bottom of the first page, where you will find out who paid for the study.

As an example here's a link to an article about the effectiveness of measles vaccine in infants. The sponsorship in this one is at the end--surprise--it wasn't funded by Big Pharma, but by the Dutch Ministry of Health.
https://academic.oup.com/jid/article.../infdis/jiw586

Now that's if someone actually wants to learn about the subject. If someone's mind is already made up they will see lies, consipracy, and self interest in any information that doesn't agree with their opinion.

[bodywhomper]

^ I'm guessing you also live in an area that has fewer, shall we say, international visitors. No disrespect meant; Disneyland was one location where measles reared it's ugly head.

i believe the correlation has to do with exposure of people who are not immune to the virus thru vax (or otherwise) rather than whether they are "international visitors".

The specific 2016 incident in my community involved an unvaxed child coming to school with symptoms, later getting checked as their symptoms continued to get worst, testing positive for a measles type, the county shutting down the school for a few days, the county requiring home quarantine for the ~100 students who were at school with that student and unvaxed, nobody else in the community contracting measles, and the incident now being used by some to support some their rationale to not vax their kids. at the time, many of us were going, "oh shit, here we go," with the follow-up after none of the other kids caught measles of, "well, that was weird." during those several weeks of the quarantine, there were many parents of quarantined children scrambling to figure out child care or take extended leave from work. i'd hazard that there was a small dip in our local economy. here's an FAQ from the county during the episode.

now that there's a law in CA requiring vaccination of most children, i have heard some idle thought about how providing vaxes to children to get "fully vaccinated" is requiring providers to invent individualized vax schedules, outside of the CDC-recommended schedule, that have not been studied in terms of safety or efficacy. those with a scientific frame-of-mind see this an interesting in-vivo experiment with the theory that it'll probably turn out fine for all of those kids, while others are raising concern and digging in their heels about not wanting to fully vax their currently unvaxed 5th or 6th graders.... it'll be interesting to see what happens. the current state law does not allow for alternative schedules without a "medical exemption" if you want your child in a licensed day care, preschool, elementary school, etc., private or public.

[Danno]

So, the argument is "I didn't vax my kiddo according to the normal schedule (based on no scientific or medical justification) but now you can't vax my kid under an alternative vaccination schedule because there's no scientific data showing it's safe"?

[frorider]

^ yeesh. Sounds like an approach a lawyer would use, amirite?

[bodywhomper]

Yep....

Seriously, the new state vax law combined with the new pot growing regs and the county's poor means of handling the new pot regs has resulted in some to move to Oregon. One of the larger grower coops has liquidated and bailed (the craigslist ad was pretty amazing). The enrollment and wait list at the hybrid homeschool charter schools, who are exempt from compliance with the school vax law, is now very large. Our little economy is a bit unstable in this adjustment.

[Danno]

^ yeesh. Sounds like an approach a lawyer would use, amirite?

sadly, yes, lol.

[summit]

The specific 2016 incident in my community involved an unvaxed child coming to school with symptoms, later getting checked as their symptoms continued to get worst, testing positive for a measles type, the county shutting down the school for a few days, the county requiring home quarantine for the ~100 students who were at school with that student and unvaxed, nobody else in the community contracting measles, and the incident now being used by some to support some their rationale to not vax their kids. at the time, many of us were going, "oh shit, here we go," with the follow-up after none of the other kids caught measles of, "well, that was weird."

It is NOT weird at all. It was just LUCKY.

Here is the deal with measels. It is one of the most contagious diseases known to mankind as 90% of those who aren't not immune but exposed to a contagious person will become infected. The R(0) for measles is ~18 in unprotected populations (1 case creates 18 additional infections). It is airborne and can persist up to 2 hours. Someone can be contagious up to 4 days before developing the tell-tale measles rash.

HOWEVER

Someone can be NOT contagious up to 4 days after developing the rash! Sounds like that was the case here. LUCKY.

Public Health and the SD's reaction was absolutely reasonable! Sadly, draconian quarantine, public area/school shutdowns, and source tracing are the only way to manage outbreaks in communities without herd immunity. With something as contagious as measles, you need near universal vaccination to achieve herd immunity.

Those who have an agenda they need to validate will interpret a situation like this through their lens of ignorance to confirm their biases. I'm guessing Public Health and District didn't exactly want to shout "but maybe that kid wasn't even contagious" as they were closing schools and enforcing quarantine. Maybe they should...

[bodywhomper]

It is NOT weird at all. It was just LUCKY.

Here is the deal with measels. It is one of the most contagious diseases known to mankind as 90% of those who aren't not immune but exposed to a contagious person will become infected. The R(0) for measles is ~18 in unprotected populations (1 case creates 18 additional infections). It is airborne and can persist up to 2 hours. Someone can be contagious up to 4 days before developing the tell-tale measles rash.

HOWEVER

Someone can NOT be contagious up to 4 days after developing the rash! Sounds like that was the case here. LUCKY.

Public Health and the SD's reaction was absolutely reasonable! Sadly, draconian quarantine, public area/school shutdowns, and source tracing are the only way to manage outbreaks in communities without herd immunity. With something as contagious as measles, you need near universal vaccination to achieve herd immunity.

Those who have an agenda they need to validate will interpret a situation like this through their lens of ignorance to confirm their biases. I'm guessing Public Health and District didn't exactly want to shout "but maybe that kid wasn't even contagious" as they were closing schools and enforcing quarantine. Maybe they should...

agree lots of luck. my memory is that the kid had the cold-like symptoms while at school, then started spring break and developed the rash over that first weekend which is when his family went to the doctor. i believe the kid's classroom was like 50+% children unvaxed for measles.

[skaredshtles]

agree lots of luck. my memory is that the kid had the cold-like symptoms while at school, then started spring break and developed the rash over that first weekend which is when his family went to the doctor. i believe the kid's classroom was like 50+% children unvaxed for measles.

Wow. You live around a LOT of morons.

[akdoc13]

If vaccines are so safe, why do the manufacturers have complete immunity when it comes to the law? You cannot sue a vaccine manufacturer for adverse reactions that cause permanent disability in children. You have to file with the government to their adverse reaction vaccine injury fund to get any money for what the pharma company manufactured. Have you ever read a vaccine insert? Take a step back and look at the money trail, from big pharma, CDC, government lobbyists, politicians, MD's etc... Watch VAXXED and if you have a slightly open mind you might think twice about sticking that shit in your kids.

[DBdude]

no not really, the vaccines don't make money for them like some other pharmaceuticals do

[bodywhomper]

Wow. You live around a LOT of morons.

It's a pretty nice area, IRL.

[summit]

If vaccines are so safe, why do the manufacturers have complete immunity when it comes to the law? You cannot sue a vaccine manufacturer for adverse reactions that cause permanent disability in children. You have to file with the government to their adverse reaction vaccine injury fund to get any money

Vaccines only get made because it is in the public interest so much so that public health medicine and scientists insist that the government subsidize the vaccines, so only then does pharma make them and they are low profit and less than 2% of their revenue. That is the actual money trail.

You cannot sue the measles for death, brain damage, lung damage, or for immune damage that can make them get all the other diseases they were previously immune to all over again. You cannot sue vaccine preventable diseases... WHY IS THAT?

Vaccines are safer than not getting them. And as a bonus, if you are actually one of the extremely rare cases of adverse effects, you can get compensated, unlike if you take the bigger health risk of going unvaccinated (which also risks other innocent people.)

But that is way less interesting than a conspiracy theory about an industry segment that is far smaller than Organic Food, right?

Watch VAXXED and if you have a slightly open mind

VAXXED is directed by the DISGRACED QUACK Andrew Wakefield who wrote the ORIGINAL FRAUD study that created the ANTIVAXXER movement. It was disovered he FAKED DATA because he had a FINANCIAL INTEREST IN A COMPETING TREATMENT. For this he was STRIPPED OF HIS MEDICAL LICENSE.

If I was open minded, why the fuck would I watch something created by a known liar?

[ate'em]

In your head do we pay off ad boards and FDA officials to approve otherwise unsafe medicines?

Yes, according to Harvard Professor Donald W. Light-

"Few know that systematic reviews of hospital charts found that even properly prescribed drugs (aside from misprescribing, overdosing, or self-prescribing) cause about 1.9 million hospitalizations a year. Another 840,000 hospitalized patients are given drugs that cause serious adverse reactions for a total of 2.74 million serious adverse drug reactions. About 128,000 people die from drugs prescribed to them" (2014).

Do the math motherfucker. That's a lot of unsafe medicine.

[skaredshtles]

<snip>

If I was open minded, why the fuck would I watch something created by a known liar?

Because it fits your narrative?

Oh, wait. Not yours. You seem to be fairly rational...

[DBdude]

how many would die if the drugs weren't available?

[skaredshtles]

how many would die if the drugs weren't available?

None of them. Didn't you read? It's the drugs that are killing them.

[hikesalot]

http://www.fox9.com/health/259032570-story

Minnesota measles outbreak up to 75 cases

Posted: Jun 05 2017 02:00PM CDT
Updated: Jun 05 2017 02:00PM CDT

(KMSP) - The number of measles cases in Minnesota has now risen to 75, but the disease has not spread to any new counties, according to the Minnesota Department of Health.


All but six cases involve patients who were unvaccinated, with 63 cases affecting Somali Minnesotans. Seventy-two of patients are children.


The majority of the cases are in Hennepin County, but cases have been reported in Ramsey, Crow Wing and Le Sueur counties.

Measles causes a high fever, cough, runny nose, watery eyes and a large rash. It is highly contagious and can spread when an infected person coughs or sneezes or by direct contact. Health department officials say the best protection against the virus is getting vaccinated.

[DBdude]

None of them. Didn't you read? It's the drugs that are killing them.

oh, right - my bad

[summit]

I notice a trend that antivaxxers like to hit and run threads... they get refuted and either bail or totally change their arguments. They never acknowledge their misconception or accept new information to correct their ignorance. At most they just cast doubt on anything because all they were really looking for was validation and some conspiracy theory backslapping: "Yeh bruh! There's an international conspiracy to sap or impurify our precious bodily fluids! Purity of Essence!"

[iceman]

The truth is, they don't even read stuff that refutes them as they are so set in their own minds it's not debatable. So, they can't argue back after someone points out that they are cretins. You've been trying and thanks, but you're preaching to the choir here.

[Danno]

I still want to know why I can't suggest better ways to build dams because I know more than the structural engineers that design and build them.

[old goat]

If vaccines are so safe, why do the manufacturers have complete immunity when it comes to the law? You cannot sue a vaccine manufacturer for adverse reactions that cause permanent disability in children. You have to file with the government to their adverse reaction vaccine injury fund to get any money for what the pharma company manufactured. Have you ever read a vaccine insert? Take a step back and look at the money trail, from big pharma, CDC, government lobbyists, politicians, MD's etc... Watch VAXXED and if you have a slightly open mind you might think twice about sticking that shit in your kids.

The reasons for the vaccine liability immunity law are 1)--there are rare serious complications from vaccines and if manufacturers were liable they would not be able to afford to make vaccines at a cost the public could afford and 2) there are plenty of people who will sue vaccine manufacturerer for any problem the kid develops after a vaccine--if the kid gets hit by a car it will be the vaccine's fault--and there are plenty of idiots on juries who will award damages for completely bogus claims when a sympathetic plaintiff is suing a large corporation. The great majority of payouts for vaccine associated injuries are for problems related to vaccine only temporally, and not for provable vaccine CAUSED injuries.
As far as vaccine inserts--have you ever read the insert for ANY medication (or for ladders, power tools, etc, etc.)? Obviously not.
You have a lot of nerve telling people to be open minded--"you might think twice about sticking that shit in your kids"--that's open minded?

[old goat]

Yes, according to Harvard Professor Donald W. Light-

"Few know that systematic reviews of hospital charts found that even properly prescribed drugs (aside from misprescribing, overdosing, or self-prescribing) cause about 1.9 million hospitalizations a year. Another 840,000 hospitalized patients are given drugs that cause serious adverse reactions for a total of 2.74 million serious adverse drug reactions. About 128,000 people die from drugs prescribed to them" (2014).

Do the math motherfucker. That's a lot of unsafe medicine.

I did the math. There are over 4 billion outpatient prescriptions written in the US yearly. Those 2 million hospitalizations, assuming they all were truly the result of the drug, represent a serious complication rate of 1 in 2000--clearly a significant number but one that has to be weighed against the benefit. The important thing is to weigh the benefit and risk of every prescription carefully. The fact that a drug has caused a serious complication does not mean it is an unsafe drug--that is only the case if the risk outweighs the potential benefit. Example--the most dangerous commonly prescribed drug I know of is warfarin, prescribed to prevent blood clots. The therapeutic threshold--the difference between an effective dose and a dangerous dose--is the narrowest for any drug I am aware of. Warfarin has killed many people from bleeding but it has saved many, many more who would have died from blood clots in their lungs, brain, and intestines and saved the limbs of many many more who would have had blood clots in their leg arteries. In general the riskiest drugs are those that treat the most dangerous conditions--in addition to blood clots think cancer and heart rhythm problems among others.
Speaking of inappropriate prescribing--I wonder how many antivax parents demand antibiotics every time they or their kid get a sniffle.