Vaccinations and autism?

**old goat** · 05-31-2019, 11:25 PM

Originally Posted by mcski

Originally Posted by mcski

Animal House came out in 78. Surely one of the retired dentists here was in a frat prior to that (looking at you Goat). Were they called Chi ton parties?

I was in a coop, not a frat. They banned frats at my college. But we did make our own beer, foul as it was.

My wife's father and my sons were both in the same fraternity--Pi Kappa Phi. Her father's photograph, from U of Chicago, showed a bunch of guys in suits and ties singing around a piano. My sons frat--at Berkeley--was on probation (it could have been double secret probation but then double secret probation is secret so I wouldn't know, would I?)

**bodywhomper** · 06-01-2019, 12:24 AM

I ate some great drugs visiting friends at UCB Castro house.

**Adolf Allerbush** · 06-01-2019, 07:58 AM

Originally Posted by mcski

Animal House...

Go Ducks!

**wyeaster** · 06-01-2019, 08:28 AM

Originally Posted by Mofro261

I started responding once and it got lost.

Aaby is Absolutely PRO-vaccine, in fact if anything he is pro-LIVE vaccine vs. subunit formulations. He is a big proponent of BCG vaccination, OPV, and live Measles vaccines, etc
but he is pointing out well known issues with the DTP vaccine as it was formulated with whole cell extract Bordatella Pertussis.

So this variation of the DTP containing vaccine has isolated toxoid proteins from dipertheria and tetanus, and a whole cell extract of Pertussis, was widely in use from 1949-1990's in the states as well, and it was known to cause adverse effects such that the first DTaP was made in the 1970's and first used in the early 80's, but didn't get FDA approval until the mid nineties, after which the further purified acellular extract (cell wall removed) replaced the whole cell extract version. The DTaP is used in the majority of the world, but it is easier/ cheaper to not remove the cell wall so there are vaccine makers in India and Brazil that supply cheaper versions to nations in Africa, SE asia, and S america. But severe reactions in some people and some vaccine preps, and even deaths following administration, were known at the outset.

But the big thing to note here (and someone correct me if I'm wrong*) Bordatella pertussis is the only vaccine given for what are known as gram Negative bacteria. This is significant because all Gram (-) bacteria contain LPS/ LOS molecules, many of which are also known as endotoxins, that comprise a major portion of the outer cell wall.

Endotoxins cause rampant non-specific immune activation and can cause sepsis and organ failure. While of LPS of Pertussis is not as potent as say E coli, it will still cause a whole mess of non-specific immune activation.

HiB is gram negative too- but that vaccine doesn't use a bacterial extract, but putified HiB polysacchride conjugate.

dang

**Mazderati** · 06-01-2019, 10:10 AM

Originally Posted by Summit

Nobody has taken that position. That would be so dumb that only someone with shit reading comprehension would wonder if others had taken such a position.

The data are clear: US life expectancy continue to improve with the widespread introduction of antibiotics, just not as rapidly as it rose in the years preceding where it was greatly driven by widespread water treatment, vaccination, improved public health measures and improvements in food/drug handling/purity and despite nutritional deficits of the depression and the outlier effects of spanish influenza and war.

The above position I have stated in a previous post, but you once again failed to read... or at least comprehend.

The only thing you were shown wrong on (by many, not just me) was your poor reading comprehension.

OG said life expectancy graphs show increases in life expectancy slowed about the time of widespread antibiotics introduction. I said it seems weird to associate widespread introduction of antibiotics with a decreasing rate (of change) of life expectancy and could not see him doing that since the debut of the Slinky is as relevant.

Enter you, with your pants tent, screaming REAAADDINNNGGG COOOOMPREHENSIOOOOONNNN!!! You have no position that is at odds with anything I said and have not disputed anything I've shown or linked.

**Danno** · 06-01-2019, 10:21 AM

As I understood OG's point, it wasn't that he was associating the intro of antibiotics with the decline in rate of life expectancy increase. Rather, he was saying that IF the intro of antibiotics fit within this statement

90% or more of the improvement in life expectancy in the west over the last few centuries is due to vaccination, sanitary sewer systems, and obstetricians washing their hands.

as you asserted, then the decline in rate -- that occurred starting around the time of the intro of antibiotics -- is inconsistent with your assertion (i.e. shows that antibiotics don't fit that statement). In other words, he's not saying they caused the decline in rate, but we'd certainly not expect a decline in rate if antibiotics were a major player in "90% or more of the improvement in life expectancy in the west over the last few centuries".

**Mazderati** · 06-01-2019, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by Danno

As I understood OG's point, it wasn't that he was associating the intro of antibiotics with the decline in rate of life expectancy increase. Rather, he was saying that IF the intro of antibiotics fit within this statement

My very first comment on antibiotics was to say they have been a major contributor to decreased morbidity and mortality. Not necessarily that it fit within the '90% improvement' figure. I said this above.

Originally Posted by Danno

as you asserted, then the decline in rate -- that occurred starting around the time of the intro of antibiotics -- is inconsistent with your assertion (i.e. shows that antibiotics don't fit that statement). In other words, he's not saying they caused the decline in rate, but we'd certainly not expect a decline in rate if antibiotics were a major player in "90% or more of the improvement in life expectancy in the west over the last few centuries".

I didn't assert the 90% figure but your comment above is an attempt to quantify the impact of antibiotics on life expectancy without considering anything else that impacted life expectancy. Doesn't work like that. What if the impact of processed foods on life expectancy was greater than the impact of antibiotics? What about carcinogens? If antibiotics were never discovered, would increasing life expectancy have reversed course mid-20th even after sewers and hygiene were introduced? What about a thousand other things that could have combined to decrease life expectancy around the same time antibiotics were introduced.

**mcski** · 06-01-2019, 11:28 AM

Dude, how about you create a chart that plots your lack of comprehension on one axis against your inability to admit your misunderstanding on the other? Take your time. Pls.

**Mazderati** · 06-01-2019, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by mcski

Dude, how about you create a chart that plots your lack of comprehension on one axis against your inability to admit your misunderstanding on the other? Take your time. Pls.

You can fuck off. You've added nothing.

**mcski** · 06-01-2019, 11:44 AM

Apparently, neither have you. Lmao

**old goat** · 06-01-2019, 12:17 PM

Gentlemen, I believe the rest of us have moved past the antibiotics conversation.

**mcski** · 06-01-2019, 12:28 PM

Do Togas cause autism?

**jono** · 06-01-2019, 12:35 PM

Depends

**SumJongGuy** · 06-01-2019, 12:36 PM

Wondering what the correlation between anti vax and pro public carry might be. Always afraid some stranger's gonna attack unprovoked but never worried about measles, small pox, polio, etc..

**bodywhomper** · 06-01-2019, 02:00 PM

My understanding is that pro public carry and anti vaccine are strong in correlation because they are both strong libertarian ideals. Add in some anti-gov conspiracy theories in the mix....

My well service guy, the flat earther, was just telling me about the theories about some large mid-west phone outage, the nuclear bomb threat in HI and a recent nuclear bomb threat in Kansas. Also, abundant theories about mass weapons (satellite-based) in Paradise during the Camp Fire and the “true” reasons why power will be cut off during red flag events in parts of California.

**SumJongGuy** · 06-01-2019, 03:02 PM

You forgot chemtrails engineered to make us all gay...

**PNWbrit** · 06-01-2019, 04:41 PM

Originally Posted by SumJongGuy

Wondering what the correlation between anti vax and pro public carry might be. Always afraid some stranger's gonna attack unprovoked but never worried about measles, small pox, polio, etc..

Austrian school economics too.

**frorider** · 10-31-2019, 07:37 AM

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...ars-propaganda

Vaxxed II !!! Now With Moar Stupid!! Coming soon (secretly) to a theater near you.

**SumJongGuy** · 10-31-2019, 07:42 AM

Surprised WronG johnson hasn't found this thread..

**old goat** · 10-31-2019, 06:32 PM

Nah, seems like most of the antivaccers are highly educated left leaning folks who are driven more by social conformity than by anything else. RJ doesn't quite fit that profile.

**SumJongGuy** · 10-31-2019, 07:27 PM

Originally Posted by old goat

Nah, seems like most of the antivaccers are highly educated left leaning folks who are driven more by social conformity than by anything else. RJ doesn't quite fit that profile.

Most of the ones I know are very religious, evangelical types who home school their kids.. because they're afraid public school will make their kids gay or learn that there's actually nothing wrong with being gay... and partly because some public schools still don't grant many vax exemptions.

I'd stop shot of calling them "highly educated". Some college or maybe a degree from Liberty or some other religious institution.

**Danno** · 10-31-2019, 09:52 PM

Originally Posted by SumJongGuy

Most of the ones I know are very religious, evangelical types who home school their kids.. because they're afraid public school will make their kids gay or learn that there's actually nothing wrong with being gay... and partly because some public schools still don't grant many vax exemptions.

I'd stop shot of calling them "highly educated". Some college or maybe a degree from Liberty or some other religious institution.

Don't you live in the South? Because that sure doesn't describe the anti vaxxers around here. And we have quite a few.

**Lone Star** · 10-31-2019, 10:28 PM

^^^^ in the DFW (Texas) area the ones I know are more of the persuasion SumJong describes. Trumpy types, even. Turns out the kooks come from both poles as far as religion and politics goes.

**old goat** · 10-31-2019, 10:42 PM

I guess it's a regional thing. In CA it's frequently as I described. Private Waldorf schools have by far the highest non vacc rates in the state, even after the state banned all but medical exemptions. There are certainly plenty of families that meet SJG's description as well.

**mcski** · 10-31-2019, 10:47 PM

It seems some people are prone to a conspiracy theory gene. Doesn’t seem particularly related to education or political bent, I’ve met all types of antivaxxers but conspiraphilia is the only common theme I’ve noticed