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Thread: Martial Arts
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06-17-2008, 04:55 PM #76
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06-17-2008, 05:14 PM #77
That's not what he said - that was in response to the supposed "No Rules" of MMA.
I have used my training in the real world on multiple occasions. And the most important thing is the ability to remove yourself from the situation.Eye Gouging, Biting, Fishhooks, ect. are certainly not off limits but you generally can't train it and you're better off learning modern ways to defend yourself.
Now to Rubicon: If it's superior to BJJ or Muay Thai why don't more people use it in MMA style competition... or do they and I just have no idea? (I don't really watch it - my "knowledge" comes from you guys posting about it.)
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06-17-2008, 05:20 PM #78
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06-17-2008, 07:06 PM #79
Rubicon is a dude.
Last edited by gonehuckin; 06-17-2008 at 07:08 PM.
Goals for the season: -Try and pick up a sponsor.--Phill
But whatever scares you most... --Rip'nStick
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06-17-2008, 07:18 PM #80
No he definitely refered to those as ways in which he his training to defend himself and win a fight. He said he's training "no rules" and he refered to those as some examples of "no rules".
The answer to why MMA fighters use BJJ/Grappling and Muay Thai is because they are as offensive and aggressive as they are defensive. Self defense arts train you to remove yourself from a situation. MMA awards offense and defeating the other person over defending yourself. Both have there place. That being said, its not completely black and white. Many of the martial arts are spawned from each other depending on context.Goals for the season: -Try and pick up a sponsor.--Phill
But whatever scares you most... --Rip'nStick
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06-17-2008, 10:26 PM #81"Active management in bear markets tends to outperform. Unfortunately, investors are not as elated with relative returns when they are negative. But it does support the argument that active management adds value." -- independent fund analyst Peter Loach
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06-18-2008, 10:26 AM #82
Saying that one art is superior to another is kind of like saying that one ski is superior to another. The abilities of the fighter(skier) are far more of a determining factor in determining fighting ability than is the style he has chosen. So the question that should be asked is which art best fits you and your abilities.
That was the comment I was making in response to Cliff's question about the outcome if I meet my duplicate who had trained in Bjj, etc. I wasn't commenting about the objective value of the arts in comparison to each other. I was commenting on how well the art I had chosen fit my particular strengths and weaknesses.
why don't more people use it in MMA style competition... or do they and I just have no idea?
Kung fu training is easy to mess up. I don't know how familiar you are with classic Chinese thought but there are many things in Chinese culture that appear simple, even simplistic, on the surface yet have layers of sophistication that are easily missed. The languages are one of those things. Europeans used to refer to them as "baby talk" because the grammatical structure seems almost child like. But there is a nuance to them that takes time to understand and appreciate.
The game "Go" is another example. Seemingly simple, but a skilled player develops very sophisticated strategies to play it well.
Kung Fu is no exception. When taught properly, it takes time to understand and do well. Kung=work Fu=time. The idea is of a skill that is acquired over time and developed to a high level through practice. It takes a teacher who has already developed this skill to pass it on. He has to understand where the art is going and keep the student focused on what he needs to be to continue developing his skills. Rather than getting to a certain point and then relying on strength to make up for a lack of skill. It takes a lot of trust in the teacher because much of the training is counter intuitive until later.
When you see a skier who looks like liquid sliding down the mountain you are recognizing kung fu. It's not kung fu kuen(fist). It's not a fighting kung fu, but it is skiing kung fu. You are recognizing a high level of skill that has been developed over decades of skiing. No matter how talented someone is they could not move like that after just a few years of skiing. It takes time to develop kung fu.
The techniques in kung fu kuen are intended to develop this high level of fighting skill in the practitioner. They are a path way to a high skill level. But they don't work very well for someone who has just learned them. You cannot walk into a kung fu school, train for a couple of weeks or months, and be able to fight effectively with what you have learned.
MMA guys want this kind of mix and match ability. So they stick to the arts and techniques that can be learned and used quickly. Doing this with kung fu kuen would be like taking a left wing from an f-16 and the right wing from a c-130 and sticking them together because you want to combine the best qualities of each.
The techniques in each styles of kung fu kuen are designed to work together within the style in a very sophisticated way in the same way that all the parts on an airplane are designed to work together. You cannot mix and match pieces of different airplanes and get anything useful, and you cannot mix and match different styles of kung fu(or kung fu with anything else) and have anything useful.
So that's why mixed martial arts guys don't use kung fu, they cant mix it into their skill set.Last edited by Rubicon; 06-18-2008 at 11:39 AM.
it's all young and fun and skiing and then one day you login and it's relationship advice, gomer glacier tours and geezers.
-Hugh Conway
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06-18-2008, 10:37 AM #83Charlie, here comes the deuce. And when you speak of me, speak well.
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06-18-2008, 10:42 AM #84it's all young and fun and skiing and then one day you login and it's relationship advice, gomer glacier tours and geezers.
-Hugh Conway
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06-18-2008, 12:03 PM #85
I dont have to do anything but highlight your own words.
Also, Kung Fu isn't used on a regular basis because its simply not any where near the state of the art in either self defense or MMA style fighting. It has nothing to do with the speed in which it can be learned. It has nothing to do with its complexity. Some of the best athletes in the world compete in MMA The best of them have decades of competitive fighting training. And it has nothing to do with rules, the best in Kung Fu aren't stepping up and winning within the rules after perfecting their art, so why would you think they would win in any other situation? As you said, you don't train to eye gouge, bite, fish hook ect, so why would you think you can actually use them? So what do people who actually find themselves in "no rules" fights use? Its not Kung Fu.
To use your ski analogy, its like trying to ski steeps with today's pros while using century old edgeless skis with leather boots.Goals for the season: -Try and pick up a sponsor.--Phill
But whatever scares you most... --Rip'nStick
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06-18-2008, 12:08 PM #86
Just to add, I encourage you to continue to train any martial art you want. Its good for you and yes it can teach skills that could one day protect you. But don't come off as holier than thou. I wouldn't have even joined this discussion if you hadn't been clearly and incorrectly talking down about other fighting styles.
Goals for the season: -Try and pick up a sponsor.--Phill
But whatever scares you most... --Rip'nStick
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06-18-2008, 12:25 PM #87
Pretty much all of the 'state of the art' fighting styles trace their roots back to kung fu.
That and if I'm not mistaken, MMA does not allow eye, throat or groin strikes anymore, thus eliminating the soft targets which are crucial in kung fu to take opponents down. Also, Kung Fu incorporates many weapon styles which are also not allowed. Kung Fu is not meant for MMA competition, but is still a highly effective fighting system in more real world situations.I've concluded that DJSapp was never DJSapp, and Not DJSapp is also not DJSapp, so that means he's telling the truth now and he was lying before.
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06-18-2008, 12:39 PM #88
Gonehucking,
my understanding is that a master in many of these styles would in no way get close to any sort of competition, let alone UFC.
I feel like that makes UFC not necessarily proving the best fighters or styles, just the best that want to show off. Which in the styles I have practiced is very strongly discouraged...
My personal thought is that life long masters of any style would probably put many of the fighters we see to shame, even as 80 year old men. This could be my overly romantic and philosophical(I was a philosophy major many years ago in college and that is what prompted my interest in studying) way of looking at things, and I don't believe many of these people still exist, but have close experience with a few individuals that lead me to believe this is a possibility. Though, frankly, there is no way to prove or disprove this.
Rubicon,
I disagree that styles can't be meshed. My understanding is that Bruce Lee is truelly a good example of that(if I'm wrong in believing he was respected as a true fighter or martial artist, let me know).
due to my limited knowledge you guys are completely allowed to tell me I have no idea what I'm talking about so STFU...
Tele
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06-18-2008, 12:45 PM #89
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06-18-2008, 12:49 PM #90
Bruce Lee was a fantastic athlete and showman. He'd last about 30 seconds fighting anyone decent in his weight class. His one-inch punch, for example, is just a sleight-of-hand parlour trick, not an awesome display of his fighting ability. Running up walls and such is good if you need something to do before a guy with Muay Thai, boxing, and BJJ skills flattens you. But it looks cool...in movies.
An 80-year-old kung-fu master would beat George St. Pierre? He would get his ass handed to him by any decent female fighter. You've left romance and gone straight to fantasy.
The UFC doesn't show off fighting styles. It doesn't care about fighting styles. It cares about money. The fighters want to win and they'll study anything that helps them. They don't ignore kung-fu just because of the soft target/weapon element. I believe it is ignored because there are vastly superior styles and combinations of styles.
EDIT: Bruce Lee was 135lbs, 10 pounds lighter than the UFC Lightweight division.Last edited by Cliff Huckable; 06-18-2008 at 12:54 PM.
"Active management in bear markets tends to outperform. Unfortunately, investors are not as elated with relative returns when they are negative. But it does support the argument that active management adds value." -- independent fund analyst Peter Loach
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06-18-2008, 01:01 PM #91
Feeling defensive much lately?
If you are confident in and happy with your training then there is no reason to get so bent out of shape over someone having an opinion that differs from yours. If your view of your training is dependent on your experiences rather than the hype surrounding it then what does it matter what I think?
Since you have spent a great deal of your time studying non-Chinese arts, I'm not sure you are qualified to make a statement like this.
so why would you think they would win in any other situation?
So what do people who actually find themselves in "no rules" fights use? Its not Kung Fu.
To use your ski analogy, its like trying to ski steeps with today's pros while using century old edgeless skis with leather boots.
There is obviously a gaping hole in your martial arts knowledge. But I don't expect to change your opinion about this. Your cup is full and you are convinced that you have a comprehensive knowledge of all martial arts that exist today. So I'll not try to dissuade you of that notion.
Just to clarify, check the time stamp on the edit. I clarified this part of my post before you posted the quote. Kung fu is not easy to mess up. Kung fu training is.
If we ever meet in person and you are at all curious, ask me about this and I will be happy to compare notes with you. Then I'll buy you a beer afterwards. No hard feelings, there are just a few things you have never been exposed to.it's all young and fun and skiing and then one day you login and it's relationship advice, gomer glacier tours and geezers.
-Hugh Conway
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06-18-2008, 01:09 PM #92
And since you dismiss any style but the one that you train in, you miss out on the advancements in fighting 'technology" for a lack of a better term.
I certainly like beer and I'm sure there are lot of kinds that I haven't been exposed to. So yes, having drinks would be great.Goals for the season: -Try and pick up a sponsor.--Phill
But whatever scares you most... --Rip'nStick
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06-18-2008, 01:17 PM #93
http://ezinearticles.com/?Bruce-Lee-...UFC&id=1195396
an interesting take on bruce lee and the UFC(by chuck norris! ha, that's funny)
Yah, I believe there are people that exist that would humble even the best UFC fighter in seconds, some of them may be 80... But I tend to believe experience will often win out over youth and strength. The fact is the fight would never happen, so it's a useless speculation.
Shit, I need to get back to work...
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06-18-2008, 01:26 PM #94
You know, despite the fact that I have some decent training and experience in what I consider to be the best martial art, I have a competely different fighting style for bar fights and the like. To wit;
When confronted by an attacker, I begin screaming "I'm a hemophiliac!!!" and crying like a little girl. When he turns away in disgust, its time to kick some back!
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06-18-2008, 01:32 PM #95
Lee was an accomplished Mixed Martial Artist.
and this speaks volumes because of who says it:
"...one minute he (Lee) could look like any kicking system and at middle range, he could explode like a savage street-fighter or a western boxer. And when he got in tight, it looked like Wing Chun. And then when he'd go to the ground, it looked like jujutsu. He was a good grappler also. Despite his lightweight, he was very quick. I think he probably received training from various (...) people and (...) from Gene LeBell (...) and he probably learned a lot of jujutsu from maybe Wally Jay."
- Dan InosantoGoals for the season: -Try and pick up a sponsor.--Phill
But whatever scares you most... --Rip'nStick
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06-18-2008, 01:46 PM #96
Are you being sarcastic cause Inosanto was bruce's student or do you actually respect inosanto?
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06-18-2008, 01:50 PM #97
I respect him. Highly. In fact, he is doing a special seminar at the studio I go to next week. He does a seminar for us a couple times a year. Hopefully I can make it again. One of my instructors is a student of his.
Goals for the season: -Try and pick up a sponsor.--Phill
But whatever scares you most... --Rip'nStick
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06-18-2008, 01:55 PM #98
Bruch Lee was good for his time...in America. But he was impatient egotistical and belligerent. He had extra ordinary physical ability and grew impatient with the training in Hong Kong. His teacher was Yip Man who taught Lueng Ting who taught Steve Cottrell who taught me.
BL had only the beginning of the system. His understanding of it was incomplete and he didn't stick with it long enough to begin to understand it or develop kung fu with it. Which is why he felt there were deficiencies with it and begin adopting techniques from other arts to make up for the "weaknesses" of what he had been taught.
No, it wasn't. It was an example of small circle chan si ging. He used it as a parlor trick because that is all he know it to be. Chan si ging is how kung fu develops energy(force). Kung fu uses a spiraling movement starting in the legs, moving through the hips into the torso and out through the shoulders into the arms and finally through the hands into the opponent(there are all different sizes to these spirals. Each one has a specific characteristic to it and specific applications.) The movement is started with the larger, stronger muscles in the legs and and then accelerated in the hips and core. Each muscle group taking the energy and adding to it in a polymetric fashion and sending it on down the line to the next muscle group in the chain, gaining speed as it goes, until it is delivered to the target. When done correctly this whole movement is very fast and looks more like a shudder than anything else.
Different styles of kung fu are distinguished from each other by the type of chan si ging they generate and the techniques of each system are designed to move the body in a way that allows the development, and delivery, of the specific type of chan si ging unique to that particular style.
This is a skill that takes a while to develop and it takes the right collection of techniques to allow the pathways of motion to develop in order to move correctly to develop this kind of energy. This is why techniques in kung fu can't be mixed and matched.
Without chan si ging behind them, kung fu techniques aren't very effective. With chan si ging behind them kung fu techniques become something else entirely.
BL only had the most rudimentary understanding of this and how to do it. As I mentioned earlier, kung fu takes time, patience, and trust in your teacher to develop properly. BL had none of these.it's all young and fun and skiing and then one day you login and it's relationship advice, gomer glacier tours and geezers.
-Hugh Conway
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06-18-2008, 01:56 PM #99
GH,
Cool, well then, with him it looks like your getting direct Bruce Lee lineage...
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06-18-2008, 02:03 PM #100
HA! I didn't "dismiss" them. I was answering the question of why I choose the one I did.
I don't have any problem with cross training but I take the approach of learning and "mastering" one system at a time. Which means 7-8 years on one system before moving on to the next one.it's all young and fun and skiing and then one day you login and it's relationship advice, gomer glacier tours and geezers.
-Hugh Conway
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