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Thread: GUNS!!!!!!!!

  1. #9601
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    CS2-6...we're all good dude.

  2. #9602
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kinnikinnick View Post
    Tell me about barrel length.

    So like you guys say, I’d be hesitant to take long shots.

    What min barrel length would you need at 200yds?
    The biggest issue with a shorter barrel for most 'high power' caliber rifle cartridges is that your going to lose some velocity the shorter you go under a certain length. Less velocity equals more time in the air/more drop and drift, especially at longer distance. Here's a great article with some real world testing to demonstrate.
    https://rifleshooter.com/2016/02/6-5...p-a-creedmoor/
    When life gives you haters, make haterade.

  3. #9603
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    Quote Originally Posted by CS2-6 View Post

    I understand what being an expert shooter means. I just don't think it's necessary, or desirable, for hunting applications. Hunting requires more than marksmanship, and there isn't time enough to maximize everything.
    If this is your thesis, I strongly disagree. I believe you, as a hunter, have an obligation to be an expert at killing. While you're very, very correct in that the killing is only a small part of hunting and that the myriad other skills are equally important to what we call success, the only unforgivable mistake is a wounded or otherwise compromised animal--a mistake made when we botch the act of killing.

    To me, the killing part is also the easiest to master. You don't need elk around to shoot your bow--you can often hone your archery skills in your backyard. You don't need the right wind to practice your trigger pull--you can do that with a nickel and some snap caps in your living room. And, you can actually learn via the internet. I'm not ashamed to say I learned the real fundamentals and mechanics of proper rifle shooting from Snipers Hide--after years of shooting incorrectly--by watching hours of video and asking dumb questions. I chose to augment those skills through classes and lots of practice, but I did the homework to learn the basics first.

    There is simply no excuse to NOT be an expert marksman but becoming an expert stalker, caller or the like takes several seasons with ample opportunity. The killing should be the most practiced part, the part you're automatic at--the easiest part.

  4. #9604
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    Quote Originally Posted by CS2-6 View Post
    I understand what being an expert shooter means. I just don't think it's necessary, or desirable, for hunting applications. Hunting requires more than marksmanship, and there isn't time enough to maximize everything.
    No, I don't think you do. I'm a bit rusty, but back when ammo was cheap and I was well practiced, shooting 1-2k rounds a week, slowly and patiently through my 22 rifle. I developed the ability to accurately predict wind holdovers up to 15mph gusts, and holdovers for different ranges out to 180 yards, purely by feel. Accurately. It isn't guessing, but military shooters develop the ability to do that with larger caliber rifles as well. Really anyone can if you put the time and money in. I'm not saying everyone should have to do that, but the lazy condescension for the importance of the art of marksmanship is rife among hunters.

    When i used to go to the range hunting season would annoy me. Bunch of guys that want to walk out and check their targets every three shots, spend most of the day standing around shooting the shit or doing anything but actually shooting. Talking about developing skills instead of developing them. Like ski instructors. Just coasting through life instead of fucking it into submission then making love to it.


    That's not an expert either. It's the skiing equivalent to kind of being able to mostly keep up with some pros without getting left in the dust but not ski at their level.
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________________
    "We don't need predator control, we need whiner control. Anyone who complains that "the gummint oughta do sumpin" about the wolves and coyotes should be darted, caged, and released in a more suitable habitat for them, like the middle of Manhattan." - Spats

    "I'm constantly doing things I can't do. Thats how I get to do them." - Pablo Picasso

  5. #9605
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    Quote Originally Posted by mangle View Post
    I'll add that .5 MOA isn't hard for a single group of three. There aren't many combinations of person/rifle/ammo/conditions that can do it for 30.
    Oh, but that is entirely mental. Ton's of people can shoot 10 3 shot groups without a flier with the right gun. 6 5 shot groups.


    True, some guns just spit out fliers. My sig 556 is sub moa, just barely, with most decent ammo, except for the one or two shots out of ten that widen the groups out to 1.5-2 moa. Probably one in every 20 is more like 3moa. Some guns do not though.
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________________
    "We don't need predator control, we need whiner control. Anyone who complains that "the gummint oughta do sumpin" about the wolves and coyotes should be darted, caged, and released in a more suitable habitat for them, like the middle of Manhattan." - Spats

    "I'm constantly doing things I can't do. Thats how I get to do them." - Pablo Picasso

  6. #9606
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kinnikinnick View Post
    Tell me about barrel length.

    So like you guys say, I’d be hesitant to take long shots.

    What min barrel length would you need at 200yds?


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
    For what game, in what caliber?

    Target shooting? 16" 556 will do you fine.


    I shoot my cz22 at 180, but it has a 24" barrel, which strangely enough is a few inches longer than what would be optimal for velocity. Meaning the bullet would be faster if it was shorter. Yet that's what the guys at cz chose, and it is a laser beam, so who knows.

    To be fair I am not much of a hunter, so take me with a grain of salt.

    I'd say don't get a barrel any longer than 200 yards, if that is how far away you plan on shooting.
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________________
    "We don't need predator control, we need whiner control. Anyone who complains that "the gummint oughta do sumpin" about the wolves and coyotes should be darted, caged, and released in a more suitable habitat for them, like the middle of Manhattan." - Spats

    "I'm constantly doing things I can't do. Thats how I get to do them." - Pablo Picasso

  7. #9607
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    Quote Originally Posted by CS2-6 View Post
    Use a big bullet to make a big hole in the boiler room. It's not sexy, but it ts dependable.



    I understand what being an expert shooter means.
    JFC
    “I have a responsibility to not be intimidated and bullied by low life losers who abuse what little power is granted to them as ski patrollers.”

  8. #9608
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    Quote Originally Posted by leroy jenkins View Post

    When i used to go to the range hunting season would annoy me. Bunch of guys that want to walk out and check their targets every three shots, spend most of the day standing around shooting the shit or doing anything but actually shooting.
    Ever heard of letting barrels cool between shots and why that's important? They aren't shooting 22's.

  9. #9609
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    Quote Originally Posted by leroy jenkins View Post
    My sig 556 is sub moa, Probably one in every 20 is more like 3moa.
    Your Sig 556 is a 3 moa gun then, sorry for the news.

  10. #9610
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    Quote Originally Posted by zion zig zag View Post
    Ever heard of letting barrels cool between shots and why that's important? They aren't shooting 22's.
    Oh ya sure, but come on you know that is not what I am talking about. I hear people measure the rate at which they can shoot without overheating their barrel at the rate of shots per hour, not like 5 shots per day. Some of them seem to need practice more than a cold bore.


    You and I both have seen those people though, you know it isn't about letting the barrel cool, there is a lazy sort of arrogance among many hunters that proficiency with a rifle is not important and being sighted in is good enough. Same people who ride around on ATVs scaring the game away asking if you've seen any game. I mean they are nice enough usually, but expert anything they are not.

    Quote Originally Posted by zion zig zag View Post
    Your Sig 556 is a 3 moa gun then, sorry for the news.
    Thank you for your condolences, I am indeed heartbroken to learn my 16" semi auto 5.56 is not a sniper rifle, despite what I have seen in video games. It's probably more like a 2moa gun, as admittedly those 3" fliers are with a hot barrel. Funny as your two points overlap, but one of the sigs real strong points is even with a pretty high rate of fire and hot barrel the groups don't widen that much, just that one in 20 3" flier. Whatever you rate or consider it as, it works just fine for target shooting. 12" gong at 700 is just like ringing a bell, at a bit less than a round a second.
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________________
    "We don't need predator control, we need whiner control. Anyone who complains that "the gummint oughta do sumpin" about the wolves and coyotes should be darted, caged, and released in a more suitable habitat for them, like the middle of Manhattan." - Spats

    "I'm constantly doing things I can't do. Thats how I get to do them." - Pablo Picasso

  11. #9611
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    JFC

  12. #9612
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    Quote Originally Posted by zion zig zag View Post
    Ever heard of letting barrels cool between shots and why that's important? They aren't shooting 22's.
    shhhhhh, let the kid think he knows what he's talking about.
    Hunting kicks ass.
    Chicks dig Labs.
    I'll keep my job, my money and my guns and you can keep the change.
    From my cold dead hands.

  13. #9613
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebirdhunter View Post
    shhhhhh, let the kid think he knows what he's talking about.
    Hey all the guys on ar15.com are totally impressed with all my tacticool bullshit.


    Nah, I'm pretty sure zion knows more than me, but that doesn't mean I am wrong either. Wanting to burst my bubble because I sound a bit too much like an internet baddass does not mean what I say about hunters isn't true.

    Its the same thing as 'hunter's' who spend their hunting season mostly sitting around camp drinking happy to be taking a vacation from the wife and kids. You guys really going to tell me that isn't a thing? Heck, half of them just admit as much and offer you a beer if you stop and talk to them. I mean whatever, god bless em, but hearing less range time being described as a good thing is pretty odd, and honestly slightly scary.

    If you blow a deer's jaw off you should feel like a douche, but inaccurate hunters shooting at uncertain targets at close range in brush is what leads to people getting mistaken for game and shot. Tell me I am wrong. It isn't the inaccuracy that makes them shoot people obviously, at that point their inaccuracy would increase your survival, but its shitty marksmen that find themselves making the choice to pull the trigger in that situation.

    I totally get the ethical responsibility to the animal, but hunters that disdain marksmanship scare me honesty. It isn't quite the level of negligence as a CCW holder who has no idea what they are doing but still carries, but it is similar.


    Anyone know what percentage of firearms accidents are hunting related?
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________________
    "We don't need predator control, we need whiner control. Anyone who complains that "the gummint oughta do sumpin" about the wolves and coyotes should be darted, caged, and released in a more suitable habitat for them, like the middle of Manhattan." - Spats

    "I'm constantly doing things I can't do. Thats how I get to do them." - Pablo Picasso

  14. #9614
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  15. #9615
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    Come on, no one wants to explain to this guy the difference between hot and cold barrels and hunting situations with your hunting rifle vs. defending your toilet paper stash from an unruly mob of looters and arsonist with your AR?
    Hunting kicks ass.
    Chicks dig Labs.
    I'll keep my job, my money and my guns and you can keep the change.
    From my cold dead hands.

  16. #9616
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebirdhunter View Post
    Come on, no one wants to explain to this guy the difference between hot and cold barrels and hunting situations with your hunting rifle vs. defending your toilet paper stash from an unruly mob of looters and arsonist with your AR?
    You try and take my toilet paper and I’m gonna be sending 20 .30 caliber rounds at you faster than you can dodge them!

  17. #9617
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    Quote Originally Posted by highangle View Post
    Thanks for sharing that. Funny he didn't mention the Remington ammo factories they bought last year.

  18. #9618
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    Quote Originally Posted by leroy jenkins View Post
    Bunch of guys...shooting the shit
    Quote Originally Posted by leroy jenkins View Post
    hunters that proficiency with a rifle is not important...ride around on ATVs scaring the game away
    Quote Originally Posted by leroy jenkins View Post
    what I say about hunters isn't true....sitting around camp drinking happy to be taking a vacation from the wife and kids...shitty marksmen...hunters that disdain marksmanship scare me honesty...CCW holder who has no idea what they are doing
    I'll tell you what, you say you're not an expert shooter and not much of a hunter, but you're certainly an expert builder of straw men. And you can hunt the shit outta them too.
    Quote Originally Posted by leroy jenkins View Post
    Tell me I am wrong...Anyone know what percentage of firearms accidents are hunting related?
    You're wrong.

    Most accidents hunting aren't firearm related, most are vehicles, falling from trees, and just plain falling. And when they are firearm related, they tend to be fairly mundane negligence or handling accidents, especially crossing fences and getting in and out of vehicles. This "accidentally shooting a hunter thinking they're an animal" is largely myth.

    And regarding firearm accidents in general, the most common incident by far is suicide, followed by homicide, both of which are considered intentional. Of the much smaller percentage that account for unintentional fatalities, hunting does get mentioned, but at a lower rate than "playing with a gun" or "thinking a loaded gun was unloaded". Other than that, it seems to be a lot of handling accidents.
    Quote Originally Posted by digitaldeath View Post
    Here’s the dumbest person on tgr
    "What are you trying to say? I'm crazy? When I went to your ski schools, I went on your church trips, I went to your alpine race-training facilities? So how can you say I'm crazy?!"

  19. #9619
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    I agree with nearly everything you said, Rev. Floater. I don't want to be misunderstood: as I've said from the beginning of all this, a hunter must be proficient with his firearm. He has a moral obligation to be.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Reverend Floater View Post
    the only unforgivable mistake is a wounded or otherwise compromised animal--a mistake made when we botch the act of killing
    Fantastically put, I couldn't agree more.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Reverend Floater View Post
    real fundamentals and mechanics of proper rifle shooting...classes and lots of practice...homework to learn the basics first...killing should be the most practiced part, the part you're automatic at--the easiest part.
    Exactly, I have no quibble with that at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Reverend Floater View Post
    If this is your thesis...
    Not exactly.

    My thesis is that regardless of skill level or quality of equipment, there are shots that should never be taken on game. Having the capability to make a high degree of difficulty shot with a high probability of success, doesn't give you the right to take that shot. You should either A) position yourself to take a low degree of difficulty shot, B) take aim on a region with a lower risk of wounding, or C) pass on the animal. There are intrinsic uncontrollable factors and any elevated risk of failure is too high; keeping in mind that I am fully aware there are no foolproof shots, but as you eloquently put it, it is our obligation to the game to maximize the chances of a clean kill. Wounding an animal while taking a shot with a high degree of difficulty, for whatever reason, is an irredeemable sin.

    It follows that since shots requiring expert shooting prowess shouldn't ever be attempted while hunting, hunters don't need to be expert marksmen. This isn't my main point, but is a consequence stemming from my main point. And again, I'm not saying Bubba should drag out his Marlin on opening day from it's year-long interment in the closet, brush the dust off, and take to the woods. While a hunter doesn't need to be an expert marksman, he absolutely must be a pretty good or pretty damn good marksman. He must be familiar with the operation of his rifle, memorize his ballistics, know his zero, understand the impact of wind, have rock solid trigger control and breathing techniques, shoot often enough to maintain his capabilities, and most importantly, know his limitations.

    Being better than that is beneficial, laudable, and really fucking cool. And there's truth to the approach of practicing at a higher level than you will play. But you don't need to be an expert driver to go your whole life without ever getting into a car accident.
    Last edited by CS2-6; Yesterday at 08:12 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by digitaldeath View Post
    Here’s the dumbest person on tgr
    "What are you trying to say? I'm crazy? When I went to your ski schools, I went on your church trips, I went to your alpine race-training facilities? So how can you say I'm crazy?!"

  20. #9620
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conundrum View Post
    CS2-6...we're all good dude.
    Right on, man.
    Quote Originally Posted by digitaldeath View Post
    Here’s the dumbest person on tgr
    "What are you trying to say? I'm crazy? When I went to your ski schools, I went on your church trips, I went to your alpine race-training facilities? So how can you say I'm crazy?!"

  21. #9621
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    Quote Originally Posted by highangle View Post

    Cliffs notes-
    Our employees are wearing masks!
    Reloader's - eat a dick for the next 3 years. We make way more money on hunting ammo, so you get the shaft on primers.
    We know this is a short term increase in demand.
    Stop asking for more primer capacity, it won't happen.

  22. #9622
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    Is this why I cant find 777 primers for muzzleloading....?

  23. #9623
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    Quote Originally Posted by exsparky View Post
    Cliffs notes-
    Our employees are wearing masks!
    Reloader's - eat a dick for the next 3 years. We make way more money on hunting ammo, so you get the shaft on primers.
    We know this is a short term increase in demand.
    Stop asking for more primer capacity, it won't happen.

    "We make more $$ on cartridges, esp these days when we can sell them to retailers for cash instead of net10eom. Our stockholders would bust our balls if we did anything else."

  24. #9624
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    Can't Buy Me Love

    Quote Originally Posted by CS2-6 View Post
    I agree with nearly everything you said, Rev. Floater. I don't want to be misunderstood: as I've said from the beginning of all this, a hunter must be proficient with his firearm. He has a moral obligation to be.

    Fantastically put, I couldn't agree more.

    Exactly, I have no quibble with that at all.

    Not exactly.

    My thesis is that regardless of skill level or quality of equipment, there are shots that should never be taken on game. Having the capability to make a high degree of difficulty shot with a high probability of success, doesn't give you the right to take that shot. You should either A) position yourself to take a low degree of difficulty shot, B) take aim on a region with a lower risk of wounding, or C) pass on the animal. There are intrinsic uncontrollable factors and any elevated risk of failure is too high; keeping in mind that I am fully aware there are no foolproof shots, but as you eloquently put it, it is our obligation to the game to maximize the chances of a clean kill. Wounding an animal while taking a shot with a high degree of difficulty, for whatever reason, is an irredeemable sin.

    It follows that since shots requiring expert shooting prowess shouldn't ever be attempted while hunting, hunters don't need to be expert marksmen. This isn't my main point, but is a consequence stemming from my main point. And again, I'm not saying Bubba should drag out his Marlin on opening day from it's year-long interment in the closet, brush the dust off, and take to the woods. While a hunter doesn't need to be an expert marksman, he absolutely must be a pretty good or pretty damn good marksman. He must be familiar with the operation of his rifle, memorize his ballistics, know his zero, understand the impact of wind, have rock solid trigger control and breathing techniques, shoot often enough to maintain his capabilities, and most importantly, know his limitations.

    Being better than that is beneficial, laudable, and really fucking cool. And there's truth to the approach of practicing at a higher level than you will play. But you don't need to be an expert driver to go your whole life without ever getting into a car accident.
    Hear hear!

    Hunting is not punching paper with a toy to achieve Zen and amusement, hunting is life and death.
    The cost of fucking up hunting shot placement is most often borne by an innocent and magnificent wild animal, and everyone else who contributed to the management and opportunity.
    The asshole who is too egotistical or stupid to give a fuck about that would be better served to take his enjoyment on the range and high fence whorehouses where he can get what he pays for.

  25. #9625
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    Quote Originally Posted by CS2-6 View Post
    I'll tell you what, you say you're not an expert shooter and not much of a hunter, but you're certainly an expert builder of straw men. And you can hunt the shit outta them too.

    You're wrong.

    Most accidents hunting aren't firearm related, most are vehicles, falling from trees, and just plain falling. And when they are firearm related, they tend to be fairly mundane negligence or handling accidents, especially crossing fences and getting in and out of vehicles. This "accidentally shooting a hunter thinking they're an animal" is largely myth.

    And regarding firearm accidents in general, the most common incident by far is suicide, followed by homicide, both of which are considered intentional. Of the much smaller percentage that account for unintentional fatalities, hunting does get mentioned, but at a lower rate than "playing with a gun" or "thinking a loaded gun was unloaded". Other than that, it seems to be a lot of handling accidents.
    That isn't what strawman means. A strawman is constructing a weaker version of someone's argument so as to more easily attack it. I illustrated examples of a stereotype to illustrate a point.

    You last two paragraphs are factual and I do not debate them.



    Ok, honest question, since using a bow is perfectly ethical, if you can be good enough at the non firearms related aspects of hunting to get within bow hunting distance, would a head shot then be ok at similar distances? I'd like more opinions than just yours, anyone else? Zion?
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________________
    "We don't need predator control, we need whiner control. Anyone who complains that "the gummint oughta do sumpin" about the wolves and coyotes should be darted, caged, and released in a more suitable habitat for them, like the middle of Manhattan." - Spats

    "I'm constantly doing things I can't do. Thats how I get to do them." - Pablo Picasso

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