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  1. #1
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    Grey Wolf hunts planned. There has to be a better way?

    I know we argued about this already, but the below hi-lited sentence just blows my mind after all that has been done to bring these creatures back from the brink of extinction.
    If I was a rancher, I would be pissed if a wolf was eating my cattle without compensation from the owners (us the U.S. government) so let's pay the ranchers. Also, rather than killing the offending wolf, can't they be relocated to a large area of wilderness were humans will not encroach on them?
    Below is just a portion of the article at:http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23856723

    Earthjustice, which represents 12 local and national environmental groups, plans to sue the federal government next month to continue wolf protections.

    All three state plan to manage the wolves cull for a reduction in their numbers, which will eventually lead to weaker breeding, Honnold said in a telephone interview from Bozeman, Mont.

    "We think that would be a disaster," he said. "We've spent a lot of time, money and effort to promote wolf recovery."

    Gray wolves were listed as endangered in 1973 after being hunted into near extinction, but the population has rebounded dramatically after restoration efforts began in 1995. The wolves were recently de-listed in the western Great Lakes, while the wolf population in the Southwest remains endangered.

    Wildlife biologists estimate there are now 41 breeding pairs in Idaho, in 72 packs. If that number falls below 10 breeding pairs, or 15 during a three-year period, the wolves could be brought back under federal protection.

    10 fucking pairs, are you kidding me
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    Ok, I will spew. Ten pairs does not mean twenty wolves. More than likely, there will be an alpha male and female, which would be the breeding pair, the beta female/male, so that means three. There would also more than likely be other animals associated with the breeding pair.

    Ranchers already are being compensated for predation kills, but there is such a fear of them that it gives a bad name. I know that last week two wolves were shot on the South Fork, because they were running on the FOREST SERVICE land just adjacent to the ranch. He walked out on the back porch, loaded up his rifle, and killed both of them. Ranchers around Dillon, MT have been notorious for having a natural kill, then sicking their dogs on it. That gives the appearance, after a day that a wolf was there. However, enough people have been busted doing that they are on the lookout for it.

    I think the larger problem with this whole situation is that humans have been pushing into THEIR homes, into their territory for quite a while now. So, instead of dumping problem wolves into wilderness, do it the other way, take humans out of the wilderness interfaces, and drop them in the middle of the city. Note the sarcasm in that, but it is the reason they were killed off in the first place, and the reason they are being killed off now.

    I know there are some people on here, from the other thread who will disagree with me. This is a very passionate topic around here, and everyone has very strong feelings. But, hear me out. I strongly disagree with the way the wolves were reintroduced. Anybody who had a basic understanding of them knew that they would leave the Park, and more than that, anybody who had spent significant amounts of time knew there were already wolves in the park. Does that make what they did a bad thing? No, I don't think so, it just could have been gone about differently. I think the management plans, at this moment are bullshit. The state of Wyoming has fallen off the wayside, and I am glad to see the lawsuit come up. This is something that will have to be strongly contested until the bitter end, since there are really no gray areas. People either really love wolves, or really hate them. Very few people realize that there is a middle ground, and unfortunately they are the voices of reason that get drowned out.

    [end rant]
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by liv2ski View Post
    Wildlife biologists estimate there are now 41 breeding pairs in Idaho, in 72 packs. If that number falls below 10 breeding pairs, or 15 during a three-year period, the wolves could be brought back under federal protection.

    10 fucking pairs, are you kidding me
    72 packs does not sound like a shortage of wolves. Thats probably at least 200+ wolves.

    I think its just the nature of predators, theres just a fine line between too many and not enough.

    If you killed off half of every breeding pair, I bet the remaining wolves would make new pairs.



    I'm not a biologist, and I didn't even stay at a holiday in last night, but thats what it looks like to me.

    I'm just happy there are 72 packs roaming around. Wolves are smart creatures. Maybe if they're hunted it will force them to migrate out to areas that currently don't (officially) have wolves, like Colorado. That would be pretty cool.
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________________
    "We don't need predator control, we need whiner control. Anyone who complains that "the gummint oughta do sumpin" about the wolves and coyotes should be darted, caged, and released in a more suitable habitat for them, like the middle of Manhattan." - Spats

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    Maybe I misunderstood something I heard recently, but I was under the impression that relocating wild animals usually doesn't work out well for the animal.
    "Active management in bear markets tends to outperform. Unfortunately, investors are not as elated with relative returns when they are negative. But it does support the argument that active management adds value." -- independent fund analyst Peter Loach

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by leroy jenkins View Post
    72 packs does not sound like a shortage of wolves. Thats probably at least 200+ wolves.
    I think its just the nature of predators, theres just a fine line between too many and not enough.

    If you killed off half of every breeding pair, I bet the remaining wolves would make new pairs.

    I'm not a biologist, and I didn't even stay at a holiday in last night, but thats what it looks like to me.

    I'm just happy there are 72 packs roaming around. Wolves are smart creatures. Maybe if they're hunted it will force them to migrate out to areas that currently don't (officially) have wolves, like Colorado. That would be pretty cool.
    Ok, so I didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn lately either, so bear with me.
    Say the hunt is allowed with the idea of getting these smart animals to move their asses away from humans.
    Will the rules of that hunt include:
    A no kill zone. Hunters can't enter or shot into the wolves habitat?
    No further encroachment of said habitat. Humans are not allowed to expand their footprint in areas where wolves may be.
    I see this problem as more of a humans in their turf than vice versa. But ask any Native American if we really give a shit about encroaching on an animals turf let alone another human being.
    To paraphrase Smith in the Matrix, Humans are a virus that are fucking killing this planet and the life that shares it.
    When is the next black plague that wipes half of us fuckers out? end rant
    Quote Originally Posted by leroy jenkins View Post
    I think you'd have an easier time understanding people if you remembered that 80% of them are fucking morons.
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  6. #6
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    I know that my opinion on this matter will not be popular, but cows are definitely not a part of the natural environment. It pisses me off to no end when ranchers are granted grazing rights in wilderness areas and then complain about wolf predation. I get so pissed off every time I see a fucking cow in the Maroon Bells Snowmass Wilderness- (yes, there are officially no wolves there, I'm just using it as an example). They are useless creatures who shit all over everything and destroy the natural environment. ...and some would have you believe that the poor ranchers who live adjacent to the wilderness area are in need of gov't protection and grandfather clauses. Give me a fucking break- these poor ranchers are really some of the wealthiest land owners in the entire state and own some of the most expensive land in the country and they still reap the benefits of tax breaks for having a couple hundred cattle that desecrate the wilderness areas.


    Western north America needs its wolves like the Serengeti needs its lions. The entire eco system is dependent on a premier predator to strengthen the herds of other animals.

    I know a lot of people on here have strong family ties to a history of ranching in the mountain west, but I'm sorry I can't see that it is more important to protect a 120 year history of ranching than it is to protect an ecosystem millions of years in the making.
    Last edited by Kevo; 03-29-2008 at 11:25 AM.

  7. #7
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    I say relocate them to Orange County, where they can feed on dumb republicans and their junkie children.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevo View Post

    Western north America needs its wolves like the Serengeti needs its lions. The entire eco system is dependent on a premier predator to strengthen the herds of other animals.

    I know a lot of people on here have strong family ties to a history of ranching in the mountain west, but I'm sorry I can't see that it is more important to protect a 120 year history of ranching than it is to protect an ecosystem millions of years in the making.
    I don't even think it's a matter of what is or isn't being protected. It's more a matter of millions of years to acheive this delicate balance in an ecosystem. Then humans repeatedly feel the need to prove that they CANNOT improve that balance with a couple of years of hunting or a couple of efforts at relocation. Just let the fuckers settle in for a couple of decades and let nature find that balance that always gets establised with time not bullets.
    It's not so much the model year, it's the high mileage or meterage to keep the youth of Canada happy

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by rideit View Post
    I say relocate them to Orange County, where they can feed on dumb republicans and their junkie children.
    if they fed on a few bleeding heart liberals, it wouldn't be too bad either.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by liv2ski View Post
    Ok, so I didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn lately either, so bear with me.
    Say the hunt is allowed with the idea of getting these smart animals to move their asses away from humans.
    Will the rules of that hunt include:
    A no kill zone. Hunters can't enter or shot into the wolves habitat?
    No further encroachment of said habitat. Humans are not allowed to expand their footprint in areas where wolves may be.
    I wasn't saying that was the purpose of the hunts, I was just hoping it would be a positive side effect. Also, I'm sure there are regulations as to the specifics of the hunt. There are for every other animal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevo View Post
    I know that my opinion on this matter will not be popular, but cows are definitely not a part of the natural environment. It pisses me off to no end when ranchers are granted grazing rights in wilderness areas and then complain about wolf predation. I get so pissed off every time I see a fucking cow in the Maroon Bells Snowmass Wilderness- (yes, there are officially no wolves there, I'm just using it as an example). They are useless creatures who shit all over everything and destroy the natural environment. ...and some would have you believe that the poor ranchers who live adjacent to the wilderness area are in need of gov't protection and grandfather clauses. Give me a fucking break- these poor ranchers are really some of the wealthiest land owners in the entire state and own some of the most expensive land in the country and they still reap the benefits of tax breaks for having a couple hundred cattle that desecrate the wilderness areas.


    Western north America needs its wolves like the Serengeti needs its lions. The entire eco system is dependent on a premier predator to strengthen the herds of other animals.

    I know a lot of people on here have strong family ties to a history of ranching in the mountain west, but I'm sorry I can't see that it is more important to protect a 120 year history of ranching than it is to protect an ecosystem millions of years in the making.

    I agree wholeheartedly.

    Ranchers, historically, have been tough people that eke a living out of a hard land, and do it without complaining. The ranchers of 150 years ago would bitchslap modern ranchers for demanding the government cater to their every need.

    I have also heard that the mountain lions in places where there aren't any wolves are bigger than they ever were when there were other predators to compete with. Same with coyotes. Thats nature trying to fill a vacuum, but coyotes will never take the place of wolves and be able to effectively compete against the cats. It would work better if wolves were around, and I bet the backcountry would actually be safer for people since wolves are a lot less likely to attack people than cats.
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________________
    "We don't need predator control, we need whiner control. Anyone who complains that "the gummint oughta do sumpin" about the wolves and coyotes should be darted, caged, and released in a more suitable habitat for them, like the middle of Manhattan." - Spats

    "I'm constantly doing things I can't do. Thats how I get to do them." - Pablo Picasso

    Cisco and his wife are fragile idiots who breed morons.

  11. #11
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    I think ten breeding pairs of ranchers in Idaho is about the right number.

    Public lands ranching is a gigantic scam. All these ranchers constantly yelling about how they need to "get the gummint off our damn backs"...how much do they think those 10,000 acres of breathtaking beauty would sell for on the open market? The answer is that they could never afford it in a million years, and their entire existence is dependent on government welfare.

    Then they yell about how the government (which is supposed to be off their damn backs, remember) needs to kill all the coyotes and wolves for them. It's like getting Section 8 housing and complaining that the countertops aren't granite.

    Then they wonder why there are so many field rodents eating their grass and destroying their crops.

    We're paying out the nose, and destroying endangered species and habitat, just so a few people can feel nostalgic and play at being pioneers -- but without any of the actual risks the pioneers took.

  12. #12
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    so, imagine you're a rancher, and your family has been running cattle in an area for 150 years. before any other white man was here, your family lived on the land you live on and moved cattle from there into the high country each summer. then the us forest service was formed, "wilderness areas" were created, and people are telling you that you don't have a right to the land you and your family has used before the government ever had anything to with it...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lone Star View Post
    so, imagine you're a rancher, and your family has been running cattle in an area for 150 years. before any other white man was here, your family lived on the land you live on and moved cattle from there into the high country each summer. then the us forest service was formed, "wilderness areas" were created, and people are telling you that you don't have a right to the land you and your family has used before the government ever had anything to with it...
    Exactly- this is where it gets very complicated and very personal. I know that there were ranchers before wilderness areas. There was also an ecosystem before ranchers.

    There are obviously two very differing and powerful views here.
    Just because an oil company has been desecrating land for 100 years doesn't make it right, and nobody has an qualms with telling an oil company off. My view on ranching in fragile ecosystems falls in line with my views of drilling for oil in fragile ecosystems.

    I have good friends with huge ranches. One with a 30,000 acre cattle ranch in Montana. Another with an 11,000 acre cattle ranch in Texas. I've had civilized conversations with them on these issues. Believe me, I know how personal it is.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lone Star View Post
    so, imagine you're a rancher, and your family has been running cattle in an area for 150 years. before any other white man was here, your family lived on the land you live on and moved cattle from there into the high country each summer. then the us forest service was formed, "wilderness areas" were created, and people are telling you that you don't have a right to the land you and your family has used before the government ever had anything to with it...
    Hmm.

    I'll have to go ask the Native Americans that used that land before the interlopers ruined it in order to get an accurate take on this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rideit View Post
    Hmm.

    I'll have to go ask the Native Americans that used that land before the interlopers ruined it in order to get an accurate take on this.
    Touche

    Fact is the government ALWAYS had something to do with the land before ranchers came along. In fact government encouraged the ranchers in the first place by offering deeds for homesteaders. The bonus was for a good while they also got to USE other lands but that in no way meant they were bequeathed ownership of it.

    How many ranching families that have been at it 150years are desparate poor people? Those original ranchers have amassed great quantities of land and wealth, not sure how much more they are 'owed' vs what they can earn.

    I think an established, balanced wolf population comes with benefits for everyone including ranchers. Some ranchers just tend to be too short sighted and quick to pull the trigger to actually see that.
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    True...there weren't ranchers (in the west) before there was government.

    Unless you count the Anasazi.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fear Of A Flat Planet View Post
    if they fed on a few bleeding heart liberals, it wouldn't be too bad either.
    Flawed premise...there aren't any liberals in Orange County.

    Besides, Wolves don't kill/eat humans, unless under severe duress.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lone Star View Post
    so, imagine you're a rancher, and your family has been running cattle in an area for 150 years. before any other white man was here, your family lived on the land you live on and moved cattle from there into the high country each summer. then the us forest service was formed, "wilderness areas" were created, and people are telling you that you don't have a right to the land you and your family has used before the government ever had anything to with it...
    I feel the same way about pesky OSHA, and the government actions that predate OSHA to make things like coal mines and factories safer for workers, and prevented children from working in them. I was robbed of my Irish heritage, and the opportunity to die at a very young age in a Pennsylvania coal mine....damn you government!!!

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevo View Post
    I know that my opinion on this matter will not be popular, but cows are definitely not a part of the natural environment. It pisses me off to no end when ranchers are granted grazing rights in wilderness areas and then complain about wolf predation. I get so pissed off every time I see a fucking cow in the Maroon Bells Snowmass Wilderness- (yes, there are officially no wolves there, I'm just using it as an example). They are useless creatures who shit all over everything and destroy the natural environment. ...and some would have you believe that the poor ranchers who live adjacent to the wilderness area are in need of gov't protection and grandfather clauses. Give me a fucking break- these poor ranchers are really some of the wealthiest land owners in the entire state and own some of the most expensive land in the country and they still reap the benefits of tax breaks for having a couple hundred cattle that desecrate the wilderness areas.


    Western north America needs its wolves like the Serengeti needs its lions. The entire eco system is dependent on a premier predator to strengthen the herds of other animals.

    I know a lot of people on here have strong family ties to a history of ranching in the mountain west, but I'm sorry I can't see that it is more important to protect a 120 year history of ranching than it is to protect an ecosystem millions of years in the making.
    Word to the herd.

    Same goes for bears.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lone Star View Post
    so, imagine you're a rancher, and your family has been running cattle in an area for 150 years. before any other white man was here, your family lived on the land you live on and moved cattle from there into the high country each summer. then the us forest service was formed, "wilderness areas" were created, and people are telling you that you don't have a right to the land you and your family has used before the government ever had anything to with it...
    What if my family robbed and killed people 100 years ago. What does that give me a right to do? Outlaws and bandits are certainly part of the West's heritage.

    Wolves have been sacred animals to certain native american tribes long before ranchers ever showed up. Does that give the indiands a right to kill ranchers for killing their sacred animals?

    The wolves have been there for thousands of years. 150 years is a blink of an eye for the ecosystem. Do wolves have the right to hunt ranchers?

    Anyone who's family has been ranching for 150 years was born wealthy. The world doesn't owe them shit.
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________________
    "We don't need predator control, we need whiner control. Anyone who complains that "the gummint oughta do sumpin" about the wolves and coyotes should be darted, caged, and released in a more suitable habitat for them, like the middle of Manhattan." - Spats

    "I'm constantly doing things I can't do. Thats how I get to do them." - Pablo Picasso

    Cisco and his wife are fragile idiots who breed morons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ColinB View Post
    I feel the same way about pesky OSHA, and the government actions that predate OSHA to make things like coal mines and factories safer for workers, and prevented children from working in them. I was robbed of my Irish heritage, and the opportunity to die at a very young age in a Pennsylvania coal mine....damn you government!!!
    And those oh-so-irritating schools, hospitals, roads, courts, FDA, good god, without all that, rural life would just be so simple!

    (Not to mention the fucking subsidies...which without? G'bye rancher family, hello subdivisions)
    Last edited by rideit; 03-29-2008 at 04:15 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rideit View Post
    And those oh-so-irritating schools, hopitals, roads, courts, FDA, good god, without all that, rural life would just be so simple!

    (Not to mention the fucking subsidies...which without? G'bye rancher family, hello subdivisions)
    I KNOW! My family has been here since before all of that stuff, who does the government think they are, going off and GOVERNING!

  23. #23
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    This thread didn't quite turn into the shitshow that I thought it would. I am impressed. More pro-wolf people out there than I thought. Maybe the other side of the fence hasn't shown up on the board yet, being to busy playing with the sheep all day. hehehe. Sorry, I couldn't resist it. Don't take offense, anyone, by the sheep raper jokes.
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    The ranchers have had an unofficial wolf policy of "shoot it, shovel it and shut the fuck up" in place in WY, MT and ID ever since the wolves were reintroduced, and it will continue. The hunting plan is just going to make it all legal.

    The thing that never gets mentioned in the media is that a lot of Ranchers make a decent amount of un-taxed cash every fall by guiding elk hunts or letting hunters on to their land. I've heard from several old school ranchers that the success of these hunts has decreased because the elk are getting smarter and are harder to find because of the wolves, so they've seen a significant decrease in this lucrative source of extra cash.
    Yeah they're compensated for lost livestock, but they don't get as much money from the lazy out-of-state trophy hunters and that's what's really pissing them off. One guy told me that a regular group of 5 hunters from the midwest stopped coming to his ranch last year, and that was close to $10,000 in lost income for him and his family.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sftc View Post
    The ranchers have had an unofficial wolf policy of "shoot it, shovel it and shut the fuck up" in place in WY, MT and ID ever since the wolves were reintroduced, and it will continue. The hunting plan is just going to make it all legal.

    The thing that never gets mentioned in the media is that a lot of Ranchers make a decent amount of un-taxed cash every fall by guiding elk hunts or letting hunters on to their land. I've heard from several old school ranchers that the success of these hunts has decreased because the elk are getting smarter and are harder to find because of the wolves, so they've seen a significant decrease in this lucrative source of extra cash.
    Yeah they're compensated for lost livestock, but they don't get as much money from the lazy out-of-state trophy hunters and that's what's really pissing them off. One guy told me that a regular group of 5 hunters from the midwest stopped coming to his ranch last year, and that was close to $10,000 in lost income for him and his family.
    It all makes sense now. I've wondered for a while why they get so pissed about the wolves when the govmt compensates them for lost livestock.

    I assumed they were just bitter.
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________________
    "We don't need predator control, we need whiner control. Anyone who complains that "the gummint oughta do sumpin" about the wolves and coyotes should be darted, caged, and released in a more suitable habitat for them, like the middle of Manhattan." - Spats

    "I'm constantly doing things I can't do. Thats how I get to do them." - Pablo Picasso

    Cisco and his wife are fragile idiots who breed morons.

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