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  1. #51
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    Maybe they got scared off...

    By, say, a bunch of dumbfuck yahoos on snowmachines?

    I guarantee y'all didn't even THINK of that as a possibility.
    Last edited by rideit; 03-30-2008 at 07:52 PM.
    Forum Cross Pollinator, gratuitously strident

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peewee View Post
    I've hit stuff running at 200+ yards as well, on more than one occasion, but I shoot over 1000 rounds a year so it's to be expected. That's doesn't mean one should attempt to do it on a deer and risk wounding it. As I said before, at that range a hunter who respects his quarry will wait for it to stop so he is assured to make a quick, clean kill.
    So - by your own admission you lack respect for the game you kill?

    While you're on the subject of not eating what you kill, are you aware that wolves often times won't eat everything that they kill? They too kill for sport. It has been documented on many occasions.
    Big deal. I'm not a wolf. And as long as I'm a human bean the only reason I'll shoot any animal is because I'm hungry or plan to be hungry in the future. The only time I'd maybe make an exception is if Rideit can get this dumbass hunter season thing started. Then again they may be quite tasty. Guess I won't knock it 'til I've tried it.

  3. #53
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    They should trap those wolves and send them here. With local deer populations in areas approaching 300/sq. mile (i.e. approx 1 deer per two acres), the natural regrowth of woodlands is being destroyed and the only apex predator is the car and the occasional unfortunate motorcycle. I have hit three deer in the last five years (plus I killed one with a hammer), it's no fun at all.

    The Eastern Coyote (a larger version of the Western Coyote, interbred with dogs and possibly wolves) has been increasing rapidly. I hear them often at night, but they are no match at this point for the fecundity of the deer.

    Give us some wolves!

    edit: Can you believe "fecundity" has been used four previous times? I thought I had a winner.
    Last edited by iceman; 03-30-2008 at 09:36 PM.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColinB View Post
    I feel the same way about pesky OSHA, and the government actions that predate OSHA to make things like coal mines and factories safer for workers, and prevented children from working in them. I was robbed of my Irish heritage, and the opportunity to die at a very young age in a Pennsylvania coal mine....damn you government!!!
    OSHA has nothing to do with mining, to play technicality police.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jer View Post
    So - by your own admission you lack respect for the game you kill?
    I never said what it was that I shot, but if you really must know I was shooting prairie dogs using frangible varmint bullets. FYI that means regardless of where you hit the prairie dogs the bullet will basically explode and blow them up.

  6. #56
    adam is offline The Shred Pirate Roberts
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    I'm here to pose the question (if it hasn't been already): Why kill a wolf?

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by iceman View Post
    edit: Can you believe "fecundity" has been used four previous times?
    aliases of yours?

  8. #58
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    There is a pack 2 miles from me , probably roaming closer. It will for us who live with them become a nuisance issue. As far as urban /wildlife interface is concerned.

    I have seen 2, YNP, I almost ran it over, and Mcall Id ,2 years ago out secesh summit. Both on paved roads. This winter guys saw one on the McCall golf course.

    I am not a hater but an unchecked predator into a checked system has some imbalance at some point.


    Can we trap them and haul them to your likings thats fine with me.

    Marin,Central Park,Denver.

    One things for certain the numbers of population are more than advertised.

  9. #59
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    cull ranchers?
    Its not that I suck at spelling, its that I just don't care

  10. #60
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    Interesting perspectives.

    I've kinda been around this one since day one, on the trail crew in yellerstone building the pens that they put the first transplants in. It's been quite a story since then...

    Personally I think it's still all on the right track. 1500 is a shitload of critters. I'd guess the population will stay strong, despite the hunting pressure. Imho the bigger risk is some disease kicking ass on the elk, one of their primary food sources.

    Going back to the greater 'reintroduction' question, consider what would have been the case if that had not happened. Wolves would have slowly made their way back in to the ecosystem, in fact there were two positive sightings before '95 [Bechler and Canyon]. As soon as that was established, they would have had full protection under the ESA. For a long time. Imho the reintroduction simply sped up the clock.
    Something about the wrinkle in your forehead tells me there's a fit about to get thrown
    And I never hear a single word you say when you tell me not to have my fun
    It's the same old shit that I ain't gonna take off anyone.
    and I never had a shortage of people tryin' to warn me about the dangers I pose to myself.

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  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peewee View Post

    While you're on the subject of not eating what you kill, are you aware that wolves often times won't eat everything that they kill? They too kill for sport. It has been documented on many occasions.
    Come on man, are you kidding?

    No animal eats everything they kill. They fill up, then leave the rest for scavengers. Besides a few animals like wolverines that will sometimes drag a portion of their kill with them, all animals that kill do this.

    Including humans, except lots of humans don't even fill up before they leave.
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________________
    "We don't need predator control, we need whiner control. Anyone who complains that "the gummint oughta do sumpin" about the wolves and coyotes should be darted, caged, and released in a more suitable habitat for them, like the middle of Manhattan." - Spats

    "I'm constantly doing things I can't do. Thats how I get to do them." - Pablo Picasso

    Cisco and his wife are fragile idiots who breed morons.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tye 1on View Post
    Imho the reintroduction simply sped up the clock.
    At the same time slowing down the clock here. Many of the yellowstone wolves were taken just outside the national parks near Hinton. Then a couple of years later some douche journalist writes an article deriding the ecological mess of Banff Park since it couldn't sustain wolves. As proof she referred to the huge success the wolf population was having in yellowstone.

    Completely failed to mention the wolves in yellowstone would certainly have ranged in Banff. Also failed to mention the effect huge forest fires have on habitat for wolves and wolf prey.

    At any rate it's just one more example of humans jumping in too soon to try to put a quick fix on a natural balance that takes years to reach it's own balance point. I'm not against hunting per se although I guess generally I am against hunting (trophy) just for hunting's sake and especially against hunting a species still looking for that balance point.
    Last edited by L7; 03-31-2008 at 07:08 PM.
    It's not so much the model year, it's the high mileage or meterage to keep the youth of Canada happy

  13. #63
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    I was trying to stay away from this thread but like a month to a flame or a Jong to a flaming here I am.

    First off, liv2ski your anthropomorphism meter must go to eleven and you have it maxed out. Please dial it back down to a six or seven and your points/questions will appear more rational and less emotional.

    My main concern is that we preserve public forests and maintain access to them. I believe that in order to effectively do this it is necessary to establish a vested interest from many different groups of people. I personally love some and detest some activities including mining, logging, ranching, hunting, fishing, hiking, horses, ATV’s, snowmobiles, Mtn. biking, skiing, rafting that are all occurring in our national forest. I would really like for no one except me to be able to utilize this resource but that is a ridiculous fantasy. Wilderness areas help me with this fantasy but in reality these resource and these activities need to be managed.

    I know liv2ski thinks that everything would be better if humans quit existing but let’s stay real. I would like ranchers to be successful, not because I like seeing bovine in the wilderness areas but because I do not want the whole eastern front subdivided and developed. This is better for all wildlife populations and ranches are nicer to look at than neighborhoods abutted along the forest service boundary.

    I hunt for food and because I love to hunt. My son (his first year hunting) and I this year killed five does & his first buck in one weekend and we will eat all of it. If I hunted only for food I could wrap things up in a couple days but I love all aspects of hunting with the kill being just a small part of this. I packed in two different camps this year hunting elk. After ten days in the backcountry, for the season, I killed my elk the day after Thanksgiving. That day I looked over a herd of 250+ with a lot of spikes, some rags & cows. I could have shot any of them, if there would have been a big bull, I would have shot it but there was not so I chose to shoot a cow. Does this make me a "Trophy" hunter or a meat hunter? I could have shot a cow early in the season but I would have sacrificed getting bucked off my horse, sitting around campfires, seeing the sun rise, freezing my ass off and being in some incredible places with some incredible people away from civilization.

    IMO, Sponge McBrag makes a valid point; an unchecked predator population will create an imbalance at some point. The less conflict with humans the safer the overall population of a predator is. The checks and balances of nature will bring a predators population into balance, but not without some individuals of that population venturing out of the management area and creating human conflict.

    We don't have to participate but MANAGED hunting of wolves, bears, mountain lions and other big game populations has its place. As far as wolves, they are here to stay. There are a projected 1500 in Montana, Wyoming and Idaho. Managed hunting of this population will not put the population in danger.
    http://billingsgazette.net/articles/.../20-wolves.txt

    Another travesty is that over 1000 of Yellowstone’s bison were killed this year and 90% of those were killed by fish and game. http://billingsgazette.net/articles/...isonkilled.txt
    The herd has to be managed but what a loss of a resource. Wouldn’t it have been more beneficial to allow more to be killed (I did not say hunted) by people buying a licenses. This would create revenue and interest. Like it or not, attracting more hunters interested in the success of these populations is a sure way to protect the overall population = conservation of habitat = preservation of national forests.
    Pittman-Robertson Act http://www.fws.gov/southeast/federal...robertson.html
    Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation http://www.rmef.org/Conservation/
    Pheasants Forever http://www.pheasantsforever.org/
    FNAWS http://www.fnaws.org/funding/grand_aid.html
    Trout Unlimited http://www.tu.org/site/c.kkLRJ7MSKtH....BF82/Home.htm
    Ducks Unlimited http://www.ducks.org/conservation/

    Along with liv2ski’s anthropomorphism, some or our self-righteousness meters are set a bit too high. I don't care what you think of me or what I choose to do and I don’t need to like you, what you choose to do or the way you do it but if any of it helps conserve what is left of our wilderness along with our access to it, I will be with you.
    Last edited by mtsprings; 03-31-2008 at 06:33 PM.

  14. #64
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    ^^^ nice post.

  15. #65
    Hugh Conway Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Lone Star View Post
    so, imagine you're a rancher, and your family has been running cattle in an area for 150 years. before any other white man was here, your family lived on the land you live on and moved cattle from there into the high country each summer. then the us forest service was formed, "wilderness areas" were created, and people are telling you that you don't have a right to the land you and your family has used before the government ever had anything to with it...
    false argument.

    deed = private land.

  16. #66
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    Bump^^^^^^^

  17. #67
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    Just read in a local paper today that the WI DNR are holding meetings to disscuss the possibility of a wolf hunt here in WI. Fucking losers. What makes dipshit fat-ass "hunters" think that they have any chance at all of shooting a wolf when they can't even manage to shoot a deer with their 50 lbs of bait dumped 20 yards off a Co. HWY? And WI currently has the largest deer herd EVER.

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by iceman View Post
    They should trap those wolves and send them here. With local deer populations in areas approaching 300/sq. mile (i.e. approx 1 deer per two acres), the natural regrowth of woodlands is being destroyed and the only apex predator is the car and the occasional unfortunate motorcycle. I have hit three deer in the last five years (plus I killed one with a hammer), it's no fun at all.

    The Eastern Coyote (a larger version of the Western Coyote, interbred with dogs and possibly wolves) has been increasing rapidly. I hear them often at night, but they are no match at this point for the fecundity of the deer.

    Give us some wolves!

    edit: Can you believe "fecundity" has been used four previous times? I thought I had a winner.
    Wouldn't work. Grey Wolves simply could not adapt to the human population density in the east.

    There is an old native saying to the efffect of "long after the wolf and grizz have gone away, the coyote and black bear will dance on their graves."

    Grey WOlves couldn't make it in the east big feller.
    "If it had taken any effort I wouldn't have done it at all. I mean it. I wouldn't have done anything" - B. Kelso

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nanuq View Post
    Grey Wolves couldn't make it in the east big feller.
    Grey wolves = timber wolves, right?

    We've got timber wolves here in N WI. Not as far east as NJ or whatever shithole iceman lives in, but we've got 'em. And the douchebags want to hunt 'em.

    edit: Whoops - Timber wolf = Eastern Grey Wolf.

    Last edited by Jer; 04-15-2008 at 05:35 PM.

  20. #70
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    Mtsprings, I guess you could say I have a touch of anthropomorphism when it comes to canines, but you would be dead wrong. I respect large predators for what they are in nature.
    I love to surf, I don't surf were White Sharks hang out and I would be the first guy to protest anyone fucking with them as they are needed. Frankly, it is pretty hard to see anything human in a whitey.
    IMO hunting predators is due to man's constant push into every creatures turf. I would argue that hunters of game that have no intention of eating it are exhibiting symptoms of anthropomorphophobia.
    A wolf wants nothing to do with a human. If it scares you, fine I can accept that, shot a round into the air, as I don't want them to be comfortable around people anyways. But there is no reason to hunt them. There are enough tree hungers like me that would pay to have them relocated away from douche ball humans that can't appreciate and live with a beautiful animal.
    While your arguments may sound reasonable to a few or many here, I know there are always 3 sides to every story. Yours, mine and natures in this case. It is our cultures perceived uniqueness and God given right to do what he wants that creates this imbalance with nature. All I am saying is someone needs to be on the wolfs side in this debate as our culture is self centered and really doesn't give a shit about anything outside it's own needs..
    BTW; nice photo Jer.
    Last edited by liv2ski; 04-15-2008 at 09:45 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by leroy jenkins View Post
    I think you'd have an easier time understanding people if you remembered that 80% of them are fucking morons.
    That is why I like dogs, more than most people.

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by liv2ski View Post
    IMO hunting predators is due to man's constant push into every creatures turf. I would argue that hunters of game that have no intention of eating it are exhibiting symptoms of anthropomorphophobia.
    A wolf wants nothing to do with a human.
    I agree with you, mostly, in that I would like to see a healthy wolf population in the West.

    however, this rhetoric regarding "man's constant push into every creature's turf" is a bunch of crap. humans are programmed as a species to consciously "push into every creature's turf?" nope, sorry. I don't know how to say it any better than that hippie arguments like that take credit away from real, substantive arguments.

    People in the west want to eliminate wolves because they eat livestock. it's that simple.

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lone Star View Post
    People in the west want to eliminate wolves because they eat livestock. it's that simple.
    Lone, I have to disagree with that statement.
    As much as hippie knee-jerkism exists regarding this issue, redneck knee-jerkism exists equally.
    Just witness (once again) the 'save 100 Elk...Kill a Wolf' bumper stickers.

    The issue is a cultural pawn in the 'Old West-New West' debacle.

    And one in which, for now, the wolves seem to be losing, overall.
    Not the reds or the hippies.
    Last edited by rideit; 04-15-2008 at 10:41 PM.
    Forum Cross Pollinator, gratuitously strident

  23. #73
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    proximate causation vs. ultimate causation


    in terms of proximate causation, the reds who live by the "save 100 elk" motto are less concerned with a conscious desire to push into every creature's turf and more related to a combination of ignorance and shitty hunting skills.

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nanuq View Post
    Wouldn't work. Grey Wolves simply could not adapt to the human population density in the east.

    Grey WOlves couldn't make it in the east big feller.
    Not around here, I agree. I was actually trying (and failing, obviously) to make a bigger point about the balance of nature.

    We do have have coyotes, foxes and the occasional black bear. Out the back door are 4500 acres of woods and of the 20,000 acres nearest me I'd say 18,000 are either parkland, farmland or part of a State hunting area (5,000 acres in there).

    They recently took 14 coyotes out of a quite urban neighborhood about fives miles closer to the city than here. There were plenty more coyotes in there, the neighborhood got in an uproar about it though. First they got pissed that their cats and Yorkies were getting eaten, then they got pissed that the animals that were eating their pets were being wiped out.

    You figure it out, I can't.

    My dog update (feel free to skip it, it's more for me anyway) i.e. don't read it:

    ^^^I told you, don't bitch at me^^^

    My dogs get all pissed off when the coyotes come though, but so far the coyotes have been smart enough to stay away from them. Sasha's eleven now, though, and Lily's just turned one, and Ginger's about 8.

    Ginger's main talents are eating and getting in position to get patted, also running up and barking furiously when the fight or whatever is over. When Ginger comes flying inside I know it's time for me to get outside, because something scary is happening.

    We're stoked on Lily, she's coming up on a year old and seems set for now at about 55 pounds. She may gain ten more over the next two years. She's a ball of muscle and the vet thinks she's almost purebred Aussie Cattle Dog, with maybe some pit bull in there. Certainly she's super smart and responds to commands and wants to please, but she's tough. She's not afraid of the deer certainly, or the foxes, but I gotta learn her on the coyotes somehow. Right now she feels invincible because of...

    Sasha, who is still the most amazing dog. Half German Shepherd and the rest is mostly great dane and greyhound. She sleeps a lot but she hasn't lost a step. She's the reason the coyotes don't come in here, they hear her and they know they don't need it, they'd rather just move on.

    And there you have it. we'll get another next fall, I want a purebred GSD, but we've had good luck with mutts, we'll see.

    I told you not to read it.

  25. #75
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    Alcohol is involved tonight.
    Sasha sounds hawt....
    Forum Cross Pollinator, gratuitously strident

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