So much for the "surge"..

[Jer]

I wrote a great post about this a couple months ago.

So you're giving yourself props now?? Where's that picture of Tommy Bolan...

[rideit]

While hiking up Glory this PM, in a MOTHERFUCKINGFUCKLOAD of fine, fine pow pow, enjoying the fruits of democracy, I got to thinking.

I believe that the inherent problems of the middle east are due to raw tribalism.

Democracy generally only seems to flourish (truly flourish) in places where the populace is an amalgam of far flung and different origins.

Think Europe...countries were tossed about like badmitten cockshuttles, to the point that no-one knew where exactly anyone was from.

The US, I don't even have to tell you, people came here to make a new start, and, (for the most part) sever ties with old alliegiences...hell, most were thrown the fuck out of the 'old country'.

Australia...good god, a bunch of convicts, with little in common.

Canada...well, I don't really have to say much about Canada. It's Canada.

I hope y'all see my modestly proposed point:

The ME is still rife with long seated, familial, religious, and cultural tribes.

Judaism is a good example. (and I am well aware of almost every element of Judaism, trust me on this)
To their credit, their religious culture has changed fairly little, relatively, for 6000 years.
That's awesome, on the outset, but certainly creates a tribal mentality, where the good of the 'chosen' outweighs the good of the region, period.
The Palestinians, Arabs, Sunnis, Shiias, Bedouin, etc, etc, basically follow this same model.
What is the solution?
I have no fucking idea.
AJ or Disarray might say "well, bomb the fuck out of the whole region, and start from scratch".
But it's not that simple in this connected world...the diaspora of every individual displaced tribe would clamor for repatriation, regardless of the scorched earth.

And would be able to mount a campaign to do so, unlike in eras past, where they would have been marginalized to the point of obscurity.

I am beginning to think that possibly the 'Cradle of Civilization', will, Ironically, be the Deathbed of the same.

But not for any biblical non-sense, more due to the thick-headedness of patriotism, tribalism, and the reality of blood bonds.




And yes, it was the sickest, sickity sick powder that I have ridden.




Since last week.

[timvwcom]

Democracy generally only seems to flourish (truly flourish) in places where the populace is an amalgam of far flung and different origins.

Like Japan?

[DharmaBum]

Like Japan?

I don't think the Japan analogy works here, because Japan had just been nuked (twice) and was basically at the mercy of allied command. I wonder if a better example of democracy developing naturally vs. being "forced" (or exported) might be East Germany after the wall came down? Or Poland after the commies were ousted? Point being, the outside influences (i.e., U.S. presence and the threat of another nuke) were'nt as much of a factor.




BTW timvwcom, how's Savage doing?

[timvwcom]

I don't think the Japan analogy works here, because Japan had just been nuked (twice) and was basically at the mercy of allied command. I wonder if a better example of democracy developing naturally vs. being "forced" (or exported) might be East Germany after the wall came down? Or Poland after the commies were ousted? Point being, the outside influences (i.e., U.S. presence and the threat of another nuke) were'nt as much of a factor.

OK, Like South Korea? (you'll give me similar answer)

Um... Like Taiwan? (gottcha there!)

I figured it would be rideit who came back with this, I actually think he could have written something like "the the cultures who pioneered Democracy blah blah blah..." and I'd have cut him slack. But since he simply used "flourished", I thought it was worth the two words and a punctuation mark.

BTW timvwcom, how's Savage doing?

I'll put together a PM for you on him, probably send it tomorrow. Slow going but mostly good news... If anyone else wants an update, just PM me. At the request of his brother I had the original thread removed, in a way that it can be returned if he himself wants that someday.

[Badgerman]

The hotter the weather.......the more violence.......proven fact.

Livin' in 130 degrees with the sand blowin.......I'd be fightin all the time too.

The Iraqi people have a right to be pissed.......we always try to pick their government for them.

[rideit]

Like Japan?

Japan was Imperialist/Royalist until we forced them not to be.

And basically emasculated their ability to have a functional fighting force.

And, like S. Korea, (as ell as many other examples) there were not long standing feudal/tribal rivalries warring against each-other for power until Western Imperialism gave them 'incentive' to be theoretically democratic.

And Taiwan?

Which is made up of many different immigrant groups?

[Rubicon]

While hiking up Glory this PM, in a MOTHERFUCKINGFUCKLOAD of fine, fine pow pow, enjoying the fruits of democracy, I got to thinking.

I believe that the inherent problems of the middle east are due to raw tribalism.

Democracy generally only seems to flourish (truly flourish) in places where the populace is an amalgam of far flung and different origins.

Think Europe...countries were tossed about like badmitten cockshuttles, to the point that no-one knew where exactly anyone was from.

The US, I don't even have to tell you, people came here to make a new start, and, (for the most part) sever ties with old alliegiences...hell, most were thrown the fuck out of the 'old country'.

Australia...good god, a bunch of convicts, with little in common.

Canada...well, I don't really have to say much about Canada. It's Canada.

I hope y'all see my modestly proposed point:

The ME is still rife with long seated, familial, religious, and cultural tribes.

Judaism is a good example. (and I am well aware of almost every element of Judaism, trust me on this)
To their credit, their religious culture has changed fairly little, relatively, for 6000 years.
That's awesome, on the outset, but certainly creates a tribal mentality, where the good of the 'chosen' outweighs the good of the region, period.
The Palestinians, Arabs, Sunnis, Shiias, Bedouin, etc, etc, basically follow this same model.
What is the solution?
I have no fucking idea.
AJ or Disarray might say "well, bomb the fuck out of the whole region, and start from scratch".
But it's not that simple in this connected world...the diaspora of every individual displaced tribe would clamor for repatriation, regardless of the scorched earth.

And would be able to mount a campaign to do so, unlike in eras past, where they would have been marginalized to the point of obscurity.

I am beginning to think that possibly the 'Cradle of Civilization', will, Ironically, be the Deathbed of the same.

But not for any biblical non-sense, more due to the thick-headedness of patriotism, tribalism, and the reality of blood bonds.




And yes, it was the sickest, sickity sick powder that I have ridden.




Since last week.

^^^Good post and I agree.

OK, Like South Korea? (you'll give me similar answer)

Um... Like Taiwan? (gottcha there!)

The nations you listed are all Asian. The peoples identities tend to be more regional than tribal( <---very general statement). So there aren't tribal identities that have to be overcome in order for the people to embrace democracy like there are in other parts of the world.

Tribes/clans are more of a driving force in Africa, the ME, and (until recently)Europe. So you need people to be displaced before they will embrace democracy in these places.

[BmillsSkier]

Funny that he who should have been president is wearing the hat that the president should.

On the other hand a tin hat is too nice for a murdering, treasonous liar.

Just for conversations sake, who did Bush kill? I must have missed it.

[DharmaBum]

Just for conversations sake, who did Bush kill? I must have missed it.

I think there are many in this world who hold him responsible for the deaths of some 4000 US Soldiers and of a very large number of innocent Iraqis, due to his instigation of an unjust war started on false pretenses, etc. Kind of like when Saddam gassed his own people - he didn't actually push the button, just gave the order.

[DaveTV]

he didn't actually push the button, just gave the order.

Kinda like..

[BmillsSkier]

I think there are many in this world who hold him responsible for the deaths of some 4000 US Soldiers and of a very large number of innocent Iraqis, due to his instigation of an unjust war started on false pretenses, etc. Kind of like when Saddam gassed his own people - he didn't actually push the button, just gave the order.

I understand that some people share those thoughts, however using that line of thought really doesnt make the term murderer apply to Bush. He'd have to have actually shot or stabbed or strangled one of those troops or citizens for that term to accurately apply.

Just passing through, checking for errors....

[Tippster]

South Korea and Taiwan are only recently democracies - both were ruled by Juntas/Dictatorships until the 80's. The recent election in Taiwan was only the fourth multi-party election in that "country's" history.

Point being they are hardly beacons of freedom and Democracy. Hopefully one day they will be, but their recent history is waaaaay too unstable.

[AlpineJunkie]

The Surge had nothing to do with Basra. Basra has been in control of Iraqis. The surge was about Bagdad and the areas to the North. We need to accidently drop a couple bombs inside Iran is what we need to do.

[Tippster]

Basra had been in control of the Iraqis because the Brits LEFT. Up and left.

[road trip]

Basra had been in control of the Iraqis because the Brits LEFT. Up and left.

It's obviously Roo's fault.

[rideit]

AJ doesn't actually read.

He just spews.

And Targhee was fucking awesome today, and AJ wasn't there.