Wheelset \ Rim Questions - Tubeless oriented

[pechelman]

Firstly, is an 819 too narrow for a 2.35-2.4" tire for someone who's about 170-180lbs with a pack, rides predominantly buff trails, doesnt huck, is more of a finesse rider, sit and spin climber, but still enjoys being able to point it through nastiness when his line is off.

Ive read yes and no on mtbr, but I really defer to the judgment of a certain psycho cannibal, a chihauhau, and an ex-semipro wrestler here on this forum.

Secondly, am I being irrationally paranoid of running tubeless?
Ive had 1 set of tires\wheel\rims with the maxxis system that scared the living shit out of me 3 times with them burping and exploding off the rim just sitting there at 30ish psi. I also like the redundancy of running tubes and carrying a tube\patch kit in the pack. (essentially im carrying 3 tubes with patches that can be patched a ton of times rather than just carrying 1 tube\kit with a UST\tubeless system)

Weight is a little bit of an issue i suppose, but not much.
Really im just interested in getting the most reliable, easy to maintain and repair, bombproof setup that rides well. Ive only ever really had traction or ride quality issues on my front end, and really thats because of pilot error.

Beyond this irrational fear, Im not really certain Im sold on tubeless just because even when running at 32-37psi Ive never once pinch flatted in 2 seasons of riding (ie the benefit isnt there). Probably because im pretty light on my bikes and dont mach through teh gnar. But I also realize that Id be dumb not to at least consider it at this point since I need to buy a new front wheel anyway for my 20mm fork.

Right now Ive been considering 819s but slightly concerned theyre too narrow, a set of Crossmax XL Discs which are a tad spendy, a set of Easton Havocs which are a tad more spendy and also not UST, and other random Ebay fodder ive come accross.

My current front runner is to just get an 819/zocchi combo for 150$ and upgrade the rear later.

Lastly, and I know this is a never ending debate on mtbr, UST or a stans\ghetto method? Given all of this, it seems like Id be fine with going with a non-UST system and leaving myself with a tubeless option via stans or ghetto? Running tubes in UST is a non issue right? Non-UST tires used tubeless on UST rims, which ones, and how can I tell other than from experience? Ive read more yes's than no's that it can be done safely, but again I defer the judgement here.

sorry for this massive question core dump



to better organize my questions
1. Is an 819 too narrow for a 2.35-2.4" tire ?
2. Am I being irrationally paranoid of running tubeless?
3. UST or a stans\ghetto method or tubes? (given what ive said above)
4. Running tubes in a UST rim is a non issue right?
5. Non-UST tires used tubeless on UST rims, which ones, and how can I tell other than from experience?

[Rontele]

dude, you're fucking killing me

[pechelman]

i knew youd be the first to reply to this thread

[flowtron]

I'm not sold on tubeless yet. I haven't put enough time in on them to declare anything. That said, I lean towards straight up UST rather than ghetto conversions. I've seen both dependable and PITA ghetto setups.
The UST system is cool. Things bead up correctly and quickly, tire sidewall constructions are a bit burlier/safer at low psi.
My hangup with tubeless is rim durability. I tend to beat the crap out rear wheels on my DH and trail bikes. I don't pinch flat very much at all, generally running about 35psi rear, 30 front (depending on trail and dirt conditions), but I still manage to put some big freaking dents in my rims. I know I'd get frustrated quickly if I managed to ruin the tubeless-ability of nice rim.

The tubeless thing has been funny. Its been a few years and the industry is not fully behind it. I'd wager a majority (neither slight nor landslide) of people I know in the business are not that into it, both retail and industry. It has many more adherents in the midwest and east; but out west, where tires and rims tend to get eaten up more quickly, theres not as many fans and users.

Good questions P, this should make for a good thread b/c I know people are all over the map on it.

[bagtagley]

I didn't have any durability issues w/ the tubeless rims I ran, but I did have issues with the tires. I still ended up having to run goop to fill leaks. So, with the heavier rim and heavier tire, it ends up being a wash. Add to that the fact that your tire selection is limited, and I just wasn't sold. Finally, it can be a pain in the ass to get the beads to set, which is okay in the shop, but kinda sucks on the trail.

I currently run tubes, mostly because I'm lazy.

Oh, and yes, you can run tubes with tubeless. Non-UST tire on UST rim will require some type of sealant. You're being somewhat irrational because if the tubeless setup fails you can always toss a tube in. The advantage to Stan's/Ghetto is that you have more options.

[pechelman]

thanks for the great input guys

I have a feeling though that the flowtron is a bit more hard on bikes than I am.
I mean his name just sounds like a bike riding transformer machine, whereas, who knows what the hell is a pechelman. Sounds more like a a fancy name for a shoe salesman.

I too am super lazy which is why I feel like im leaning toward tubes.
The idea of having to sit with a bottle of soapy water and liquid latex isnt that appealing to me, even if it is just once in a blue moon.

Any input though on questions 1, 4 and 5?

[flowtron]

1. I wouldn't worry about it with most 2.35-2.4

4. No issues

5. I'd expect a bevy of answers.

[pechelman]

You're being somewhat irrational because if the tubeless setup fails you can always toss a tube in.

well what if I puncture both tires on the same object? while thats unlikely, its not unheard of. Ive explained this to Rontele offline, but Id need to carry 2 tubes to have the same reliability as I would with just running tubed tires and carrying a patch kit. With tubes, a spare tube, and a patch kit, if you cant get out of there, you're doing something wrong. I ride in a group cause I have more fun and I have support if I need it, but I like to be self sufficient.

1. I wouldn't worry about it with most 2.35-2.4

4. No issues

5. I'd expect a bevy of answers.

excellentness
guess ill just go ahead and order that 819/marzocchi front wheel then

[tromano]

Were you planning to run stans? If so most punctures will be self sealing. My experience with ghetto tubeless has been unless you are destroying sidewalls / blowing the tire off the rim ghetto is at least as durable as running tubes. If you go UST there will probably be less chance of burping, especially if you ride with a soft touch.

As far as what tires to run, I have had good luck with ghetto tubeless using Navegals. They seem to have a really strong bead that fits really tight on my Rhynolight rims.

[Pedro]

UST rim and UST Tire combo works awesome, never had a problem.

Since i went to 29er, Stans Rims with the yellow tape and WTB exiwolves have worked awesome.

I just read up on it. Read the MTBR tire section, look for people with continued success of certain combos, i ended up going with this combo after reading Harlan Prices blog and how successful his setup has been, it worked for me.

[chaka]

1. Is an 819 too narrow for a 2.35-2.4" tire ?
2. Am I being irrationally paranoid of running tubeless?
3. UST or a stans\ghetto method or tubes? (given what ive said above)
4. Running tubes in a UST rim is a non issue right?
5. Non-UST tires used tubeless on UST rims, which ones, and how can I tell other than from experience?

1. no, I run 2.4" tyres on older x317s and 517s, which are a little narrower than 819s, with zero problems. And yes, spelling tyre with a y makes me appear worldly.

2. If you get a system that can always take a tube as a backup, you are being somewhat irrational. Of course, I have not made the jump to tubeless, for some of the reasons you flagged, so I am a bad source of info on this one. I'm not convinced the added traction tubeless provides by running at low PSI offsets a) additional drag running lower psi on climbs and b) added weight of a ust system...Of course I ride xc, singlespeed primarily, YMMV.

3. religious battle, both sides have great arguments. I think buying UST rim for 20-40g penalty, and then running it either UST or non UST (with heavier tires/no tubes, or lighter tires/tubes respectively) as the mood suits you is a path worth considering

[Crinkle]

1. Is an 819 too narrow for a 2.35-2.4" tire ?
2. Am I being irrationally paranoid of running tubeless?
3. UST or a stans\ghetto method or tubes? (given what ive said above)
4. Running tubes in a UST rim is a non issue right?
5. Non-UST tires used tubeless on UST rims, which ones, and how can I tell other than from experience?

I am 180 +/- depending on the time of the season without gear, ride rougher single track, love to put the hammer down. I currently run 819's with 2.35's.

1. no
2. see the expert answers, IMO yes, I've been running tubeless or ghetto for 2 full seasons. I had less failures with ghetto, but ran higher pressures then. Overall, i've changed WAY less tubes with tubeless than tubes. Of course you always carry back up tubes, no one wants to be stranded and anything can happen, so best be prepared. Run a higher pressure to ease the paranoia. 30 psi might have been a bit low for you, depending on the tire/terrrain and ride style. I run 33ish in the front and 35 in the rear
3.UST
4.correct
5. http://www.notubes.com/support_tire.php but running non-ust could cause more of the burping issues that you experience, also depending on pressure.

[kidwoo]

1. Is an 819 too narrow for a 2.35-2.4" tire ?

That's what I have on my enduro with 2.3/4 ish tires and I certainly don't hold back on that bike.

2. Am I being irrationally paranoid of running tubeless?

With tubeless rims and tubeless tires.......yes.

3. UST or a stans\ghetto method or tubes? (given what ive said above)

Get the UST rims

4. Running tubes in a UST rim is a non issue right?

As long as the tubes are presta.

5. Non-UST tires used tubeless on UST rims, which ones, and how can I tell other than from experience?

I've never found a non UST tire used tubeless that I didn't tear into pieces. Get the UST tires.


Your life will not end from carrying two tubes. I do and I consider my life quite fulfilling.

[Tap]

agreed on all counts. 819's here.

just pack some tubes just in case.

[pechelman]

hah
this is all true and great stuff

im glad i ordered the 819s about 2 hours ago

now, hopefully I can snipe this other 819 rear wheel and be stylin on my UST craziness


for those of you that run UST tires on UST rims, how many of you use sealant?

[kidwoo]

for those of you that run UST tires on UST rims, how many of you use sealant?

Use sealant.

[pechelman]

what i figured

[Yeti]

2. Am I being irrationally paranoid of running tubeless?

Yes. I am an adherent -- perhaps an "eastern" one, but I doubt my tires/wheels know my longitude. I am light, but I do not ride buff (nothing in my woods would could) and have not had any burping in hundreds of miles over the last two years. I used to flat every few days (like I said, nothing's buff and I'm not the most finessed rider), but going tubeless is a godsend.

3. UST or a stans\ghetto method or tubes? (given what ive said above)

My experience is UST. Use sealant. Enjoy.

[petecz]

use Stans sealant. use UST tires. I don't huck though.

petecz

[homerjay]

I got tubeless wheels in the spring of 2004. With UST Tires and sealant, I have had exactly three flat tires since then, and probably ride more than you. Currently running 2.35s on crossmax sl rims which have to be at least as narrow as 819's. Just fucking do it.

[kidwoo]

I tend to beat the crap out rear wheels on my DH and trail bikes. I don't pinch flat very much at all, generally running about 35psi rear, 30 front (depending on trail and dirt conditions), but I still manage to put some big freaking dents in my rims. .

That's because you don't have any air in your tires.

Use tubeless, run the same pressures, maybe even more. That's right......More. Even at higher pressures a tire with no tube in it conforms more to the terrain because there's no tube in there adding structural support. The higher pressures keep the tire from folding over and add some cush for your rims.

but out west, where tires and rims tend to get eaten up more quickly, theres not as many fans and users.

I'm in the roughest part of the westernmost state and everyone I ride with runs tubeless wheels in their trail bikes. You've ridden here. You know it's rocky and rough. You just have to know what you're doing when you set them up. Following the directions of lower pressure is just retarded. It leads to burping, rim beating and over all squishy feeling turns. The difference in traction and rolling resistance (yes you really can feel it) makes it WELL worth while. Finding tires that don't shred has been the only issue for me.


For what it's worth, I'm usually at about 35 front, 40 rear on my xc bike. I'd have to check what my hella freeride bike is. That one is tubeless too but with dh tires.

[funkendrenchman]

Well after no success with UST, I decided to try Ghetto tubeless. Three rides later I blew off the rear tire. If you run ghetto, you need to check tire pressure before each ride. I believe I was running 26-28psi when I had the rear unseed. I will not run under 32 psi in the future. I have decided the real advantage to tubeless is not running lower pressures and getting better traction, but the huge weight savings on DH bikes. I could actually feel the difference lifting my bike. I estimate ghetto tubless cuts 2 pounds off my setup compared to DH tubes.

[SuperChief]

I'm about to screw myself by adding my wife's Prophet for lift serve is running tubeless ust 819's a high roller on the rear and a Michelin DH16 on the front and she hasn't flatted once, I'm pretty sure the sealant is all dried up on the inside of the rear and the front has no sealant. I've been running 30lbs, maybe I should run a bit more psi. of course she isn't riding super hard but manages to get down some gnarly lines.

[XXX-er]

my prophet 1000 came with 819's and 2.35 maxxis highroller stick-E UST's , they worked flawlessly & held air no problem with no stans or anything BUT non-UST nevegals leaked all the time ,I think they needed a rim strip ,but they had at least as much grip as the maxxis and were much faster rolling

I would use slightly MORE air in a tubeless setup not less and yup a DH tube can weigh 400grams each

[kchri]

Running X819 front and rear with Nevegal non-ust 2.35 front and SB8 non-ust 2.35 rear. Both with stans and minimal problems. Two years now. Ran Crossmax sl with same tires in same configuration for two years before that.

You could always bone up to x823 for a wider ust rim. Mavic does say that 2.3 is the max tire width for the x819. But who follows rules?...