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I think it also depends on the experience. We've done the lion's share of the work for most of our buys and just needed a realtor to get the keys/schedule the showing as lots of selling realtors won't respond or key share with non-realtors. I'd pay very little for a bare-bones, but more for one that's in a non-local area who runs down properties to shortlist or livestreams the showing. That said, most successful realtors I've seen outsource that stuff to their admins anyhow.
Likely not as the agents mostly have to pay a supervising broker some cash, their showing agent and transaction coordinator. Then there is E & O and other expenses.Quote:
Originally Posted by summit
My point is they have expenses, so for less than $5k it likely makes no sense. And remember inflation means they need to make more than 3 years ago.
I could see a base amount/comp +.
since 2012 the average house appreciation has been 7.7%. Commissions have stayed constant between 5 and 6%. I am pretty sure they are keeping up with inflation.
Second largest lobbying money spent for 2023 and typically in top 3. Seems like they shouldn't have to bribe so many politicians if they actually provide a service worth the cost?Quote:
Originally Posted by neufox47
Everyone has expenses. Lawyers and CPAs do.Quote:
Originally Posted by liv2ski
What makes sense for what the market would bear with fair competition on take-home hourly for a job that has extremely low educational, cost, and time barriers to entry?
A buddy of mine with a father & brother in the RE game quit after 13 yrs so I had to ask her why and she said " I just couldn't stand the people "
office fees for an agent around here are 1500 per month a lot of expenses if you are not selling
about 10 yrs ago I sold a house while riding the skyline chair only 15 minutes to make the pitch
buddy gave me a case of beer
In Montana...high school diploma and a 60-hour class, which you can do in a single week. Then the easiest test ever invented and BAM. Now you're a Realtor(TM).Quote:
Originally Posted by J. Barron DeJong
More about my perceived value of the service rendered. I paid $1200 to get my taxes prepared last year (had a weird tax year last time around), and good market advice on buying/selling a house is worth more than that to me, even if it doesn't take any longer than preparing my taxes.Quote:
Originally Posted by J. Barron DeJong
PhDs in comp lit also have extensive post-secondary education, and they make bupkis [shrug]. The value of the service doesn't have to be tied to how much education they have. Hell, based on what I hear from my wife, plenty of women's hairdressers outearn CPAs.Quote:
Originally Posted by summit
For the sake of discussion, let's say it takes 10-20 hours of work by an agent to buy or sell a house. (That's just my WAG, those who know better, please chime in). Using your value of "less than $100/hr", that means an agent would be making something under $2k to buy/sell a house. Personally I wouldn't feel confident that I'm getting good advice at that point.
Exactly
Agents gets so much of their time wasted by non-performing customers. They have to build in those non-productive hours spent working to deals that actually close, hence the ridiculous amounts that the industry has become to due to higher sales prices.
Agents like any professional should tell prospective sellers and buyers that they charge a flat fee plus x for their time that will be paid regardless of a transaction closing or not to get their fees down for non-performing customers.
But the tax prep industry is one of the worst about lobbying to keep it’s cut of the pie!Quote:
Originally Posted by dan_pdx
For years they’ve been lobbying against the IRS sending out pre-completed tax statements that could just be reviewed and signed, which would cover the majority of tax filers.
Finally, next year the IRS is at least trialing a free tax prep option, but only in 13 states.
Let's build on that hypothetical math. Why is 2k to buy/sell a house unfair to the realtor? If they are good at what they do what's a reasonable number of houses to buy/sell in a month? Year?Quote:
Originally Posted by dan_pdx
Let's say a middle of the road realtor sells 5 houses a month. That's $120k gross a year. If you're a baller realtor maybe you sell double that. Why should someone with minimal overhead business expenses need, or deserve, to make more than that?
I know a few people that work a professional job and do realty work on the side (not trying to say being a realtor isn't a profession). If we use the numbers above and that person sells 5 houses in a year and makes $10k gross I'd say that's a pretty good side hustle.
So what you guys are saying is that unless the NAR artificially inflates the fees for RA's they won't be able to make enough money to pay their bills?
The percentage of Realtors who average five or more closings a month is miniscule.Quote:
Originally Posted by east or bust
Ha! That's a tangent, but I'll allow it. Agreed that the US approach to income taxes sucks and pre-filled tax statements would be a huge step up while at the same time putting fuckers like H&R Block 6 feet under.Quote:
Originally Posted by J. Barron DeJong
The reason I mentioned the cost of tax prep was not to indicate support for collusive / anti-consumer practices in either industry, just as a benchmark for value received. The weird tax year I mentioned included an interstate move, W2 income, RSU income, unemployment, severance, different W2 income, rental income, my wife's sole proprietorship income, and some other bullshit. Even if the IRS filled that one out for me, I'd have to hire a CPA to check their work.
Whoa, where did I say unfair to the realtor? I don't give a shit about what's fair to the realtor, I'd like to keep more money in my pocket just like everyone else. I'm just saying that the service you get for $2k is probably not the same as what you would get for $5k or $10k. Would you choose the cheapest lawyer/contractor/car mechanic/restaurant etc.? Why would it be different for RE agents?Quote:
Originally Posted by east or bust
This is not a hill that I'm fighting for here. It sounds like we have different ideas about what we'd be willing to pay for an RE agent's/broker's services, and that's fine.
Ok, so some Realtor(TM) make a pile for what looks like not much work but don't making about trading time for money. Most of us are trying to get out of that game. It pays by the job. Efficiency should always be rewarded.
And you too can be a Realtor(TM). I think a majority of them don't make boo fuck. Also, please don't equal a paycheck with benefits too commission based self employment income.
So yeah, I'm as surprised as anyone that the commission structure has stayed largely unchanged for so long, but don't player hate and reverse engineer what you think someone else should make.
^ This is the problem. Too many realtors with not enough to do other than rationalize their ridiculously high commissions.Quote:
Originally Posted by RootSkier
I often wondered how an RE agent survived and if they had other sources of incomeQuote:
Originally Posted by east or bust
A high sales bud told me that 20% or th agents sell 70 % of the houses
The number that sell five in a year is still a small percentage of the total.Quote:
Originally Posted by RootSkier
Mostly their "professional" association ignoring the Sherman Act.Quote:
Originally Posted by XXX-er
Quote:
Originally Posted by RootSkier
So basically we have way too many realtors?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Striker
Snippet from a WSJ article on the topic of the NAR lawsuit:
"In a report released ahead of the verdict, Ryan Tomasello, a real-estate industry analyst with Keefe, Bruyette & Woods, predicted that the lawsuits could lead to a 30% reduction in the $100 billion that Americans pay in real-estate commissions every year and push well over half of the almost 1.6 million agents out of the industry."
Why should good customers that don't waste people's time pay for the shitbirds? Let the shitbirds eat the cost.Quote:
Originally Posted by liv2ski
Sales has no fair hourly rate.Quote:
Originally Posted by summit
On the buyers' side, RE should transition to fee for service (I've been a broken record on this for pretty much ever). My wife's ratio of offers written to offers accepted is probably 1 in 5.
Absolutely. The listing agent's fiduciary responsibility to the seller must trump the buyers. The conflict of interest is baked right in.Quote:
Originally Posted by RootSkier
I'd bet the farm Joe's advisors told him to roll out federal legalization, as it polls well, but he's too old and stubborn to let it happen while he's in office.Quote:
Originally Posted by byates1
Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk
I take the vue that what an RE agent gets paid and how many there are is market driven/self limitingQuote:
Originally Posted by Ted Striker
if you read all the posts here RE agents should have all given up or been put in jail or tar-n-feathered long ago but such is not the case ??
Yep. The brokerage firms are pyramids. Bringing new agents onboard as part of your "team" to generate sales (generally though their social contacts) is part of the business plan, and commissions are split up the chain to the top.Quote:
Originally Posted by east or bust
I think think the UK system had a lot going for it. Negotiable commission for sellers agent (average nationally is 1.18%) no buyers agent. Buyer and seller pay attorneys to deal with the conveyance. For a normal transaction without any undue complications this would cost each $500-$1000Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Striker
It's probably actually 80% and its a well regarded ratio in almost everything. The Pareto principal.Quote:
Originally Posted by XXX-er
80% of your sales comes from 20% of your customers.
80% of your sales are generated by 20% of your sales agents.
80% of the work done at your company is done by 20% of the employees.
Fixing 20% of the bugs in a program will eliminate 80% of the issues.
20% of your dishes are used 80% of the time.
AmazingQuote:
Originally Posted by PNWbrit
yeah but its ^^^ british law cuz its like ... britain
20 % of the soldiers kill 80% of the enemy
so I have heard the 80-20 thing but not the Pareto principle
so i actualy learned something on TGR today
Law is one thing enforcement another. The amount of private planes that fly into Jackson keep all supplies topped off I'm sure. As a lifelong kitchen guy, now in Bozeman, every single kitchen/restaurant head I've talked w tells tales of epic partying/hard drug existence in Jackson. C'est la vie.Quote:
Originally Posted by stalefish3169
Well, if you have the $$$ to fly in on private planes, you are going to bring all the good shit you want with you.
FKNA party on Garth. I'll watch. Them days is behind me.
back when Coke was still cool, in aspen if you turned your bread plate over upside down it was code for the waiter that you wished to make a purchase
Wait, coke isn't still cool? :confused:
We have pepsi...Quote:
Originally Posted by liv2ski
not the Aussie system? Doing most sales by auction really changes the market.Quote:
Originally Posted by PNWbrit
I can not imagine that is how they sell property as the sellers could get deficiency judgements if the property sells for less than is owed.Quote:
Originally Posted by dunfree