Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by BmillsSkier
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Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by BmillsSkier
Maybe this has already been discussed - does anyone think real estate attorneys are going to become more popular? Maybe not for first time/less experienced home buyers, where a good agent can be super helpful. But for a more seasoned home buyer wouldn't it be feasible to bypass the buyer's agent altogether and just have an attorney review the paperwork to make sure you're not missing something or getting fleeced? Wouldn't that usually be way less expensive than even paying a lower commission to a buyer's agent?
With all due respect, you have been in the business for how long? You've only seen the "low inventory environment" and only in a fairly rural area. There have been many periods where it was not a "low inventory environment", quite the opposite, and as singlesline noted, in large metro areas the situation can be quite different.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteroom_Guardian
Not to mention that there are more ways for agents to steer buyers one way or another than "not putting a home in front of their buyer".
I've been in the business 6 years. I have family members who have been in 20-35+ years. I have seen slow/high inventory markets with some level of understanding. I get that different markets are different.Quote:
Originally Posted by Danno
Interesting. From my perspective (and to Danno's point), maybe the fiduciary standard isn't enforced the same as it is in other relationships (despite that it should mean the same regardless of industry)?Quote:
Originally Posted by PNWbrit
In my state real estate closings are handled with closing attorneys which some people like and some people bemoan. In other states where I've bought/sold property title companies are used similar to most commercial property transactions. Personally I like the closing attorney route as we haven't used realtors in the last two houses we bought so it minimized costs and you were still getting doc review/escrow services/settlement services/recording services all under one roof. As with anything YMMV.Quote:
Originally Posted by east or bust
Yep.Quote:
Originally Posted by BmillsSkier
From NAR
Quote:
Fiduciary duties are all the duties that a real estate agent or broker is legally beholden to when working with a client.
These duties, which are in the client’s best interest, can be summarized by the acronym OLDCAR: obedience, loyalty, disclosure, confidentiality, accounting, and reasonable care.
Agency is created once an agreement is signed, though a small number of states allow oral agreements.
Learn something new every day. Thanks.
Which states are the ones that allow oral agreements with a realtor.
This concept intrigues me.
I notice that article uses the UK for examples, but despite their lower commission costs, the average home cost is significantly higher than in the US - both in price to income, and in real £/$. Same goes for Canada.Quote:
Originally Posted by J. Barron DeJong
It's easy to point to previous commissions being part of a home's total cost/price to date, but it's magical thinking to claim supply/demand/rates aren't what really dictate future prices.
It definitely factors into selling decisions. if you basically lose 6% of your home value selling, then buying, that’s a big chunk of cash that’s removed from your next purchase.
It’s also funny how big of a part of my RE license training a few years ago was about not accidentally entering into an assumed contract with a client.
We got one of those cards when the house next door sold. Didn't recognize the agent, so obviously not a big player in this town, but the general implication was that they sold it. Except it was my wife's listing. Fuckin dirt pimps :nonono2:Quote:
Originally Posted by BmillsSkier
Yeah, realtor fees aren’t what drive home prices. UK, for example, is woefully behind in building new housing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Striker
But I don’t mind if realtors end up collecting lower fees because buyers don’t see that they were providing a valuable service at the cartel rates.
For sure. Not sure why more people don’t do it. People buy companies with attorneys, why not a house. I just connected a family member to a friend who is an amazing RE attorney and he helped with the paperwork on a very very high dollar house purchase recently. Same guy helps all the local sports stars buy their homes.Quote:
Originally Posted by east or bust
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Yeah, absolutely. Total guess, but there's probably a big chunk of the mid-high market that gets shaken loose. Like someone selling their million plus house in Bellingham to buy a million plus in Bend.Quote:
Originally Posted by Supermoon
As the UK market stood in December 2023, the average price for a home was 290,000 British pounds ($368,000)Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Striker
US market average Q4 2023 is $417,000 from that article
(Both numbers are actually the median it looks like the $417K one comes from the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis)
There are far more variables and far more powerful economic forces on UK/US house prices than realtor costs though.
Agree, and so are we. And no sympathy for agents from me either. It's just that I've been privy to just how stupid buyers can be, and having someone in your corner to possibly save you from yourself is generally a good thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by J. Barron DeJong
If I didn't already say it, buyers' agents are going to be a thing of the past like landlines, Blockbuster, and 35mm film.
That's an incredibly polite way to say "fiduciary duty? They sure don't fucking act like it!" The fact that steering exists at all, or the rubber stamp home inspectors that they recommend etc etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by BmillsSkier
So only used in Bend, OR? [emoji28]Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Striker
I don't think so. The compensation structure might change, but there will still be a lot of people unwilling to spend 500k+ without some sort of expertise in their corner, aside from an attorney to look over the docs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Striker
Predicting the future is nothing like assessing the economic impact of a fee structure. Do you not believe in economics?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Striker
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...pact-1.7148033
a timely artical on RE
I think prices up here are pretty stupid probably stupider than down south it's hard to buy or rent somewhere to live
Looks like retiring to the British country side is worth looking into. Probably impossible for a Yank to get more than a touron visa I would imagine. I'm guessing the skiing isn't so great in the UK though.Quote:
Originally Posted by PNWbrit
Fed holds pat on rates, still indicates 3 cuts coming in '24.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/feder...180231430.html
Clearly you never went to the Becton Alps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Toadman
Attachment 491253
https://media.giphy.com/media/bzOwkf...giphy.gif&ct=gQuote:
Originally Posted by PNWbrit
I was comparing the widely held belief that American residential RE cost per square foot was in the $220-240 range, and the UK plus Wales is about £320. Maybe the discrepancy is average home size? Mea culpa on that one. I crossed the fine line from clever to stupid.Quote:
Originally Posted by PNWbrit
Probably - the size of new-ish U.S. houses is fuckin' ridiculous. :nonono2:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Striker
I was actually just being a smartass.Quote:
Originally Posted by neufox47
But you can't be saying with a straight face that economists aren't attempting to predict the future. Krugman predicted a soft landing this morning on twitter. Hatzius - who's an order of magnitude smarter - agrees (with caveats).
The change in fee structure hasn't taken effect yet. One of the defendants hasn't settled.
I'll ask you, what part do you (and economists) disagree with? I said...
- Total commissions paid will be lower
- Market forces remain in effect
- Houses sell for what buyers are willing/able to pay (I assume this is one you don't like)
- There has been a housing deficit since the financial crisis that persists today. Population growth still outpaces building starts. No credible person thinks this year won't be a sellers' market.
So in light of that, I'm predicting buyers will have little leverage to squeeze that 3% from sellers. And since bidding wars will be the norm in all the hot markets this summer, even if they get the concession they'll just be giving it back.
when it came to predicting the future I did stupid things in RE and it all worked awesume
I'm not sure where that fits
Well... You don't have to look very hard to find a buyer who feels that their buyers agent didn't really help them, i or made getting their commission a higher priority than advising their clients from a fiduciary perspective. How are those buyers going to do worse with no representation?
Hey, maybe buyers will be willing to negotiate an equitable fee directly with you when they see your value and then be fairly represented.
No way!!! Name a profession that people dont complain about. Maybe many buyers are either too stupid to know themselves or simply come up with shit to complain about. What DONT people complain about?Quote:
Originally Posted by dan_pdx
What’ll likely happen is that Buyers will get shafted EVEN WORSE without an agent and will start complaining that they aren’t treated fairly.
I’m no fan of the RealtorTM machine, but how exactly WASNT anyone able to list at a lower commission than the 6%. You could ALWAYS negotiate the commission. As evidenced by RedFin and other discount brokerages.
All this emphasizes is how stupid most home sellers are. Just did whatever the RealtorTM said? Hell the whole RealtorTM thing is a sign how stupid most home sellers are. A Realtor isnt anything other than a brand name for certain real estate brokers. A Big Mac for real estate. And all these stupid fucks fell for it. “Gotta get a RealtorTM”. Fuck you deserve to get fleeces if you literally can’t figure out that legally speaking with respect to real estate markets, being a RealtorTM is nothing. You cant be a RealtorTM but not a licensed RE broker and sell RE. But you can NOT be a RealtorTM but sell RE as a licensed broker.
And how are they going to do worse with no representation? All that shows is your glaring lack of knowledge.
1) Buy house with obvious issues or market problem.
2) Overpay
3) who’ll negotiate the contract for you? Sellers agent screws you on contract terms. “Time is of essence” clause can fuck you.
4) Mortgage contingency - appraisal too low, but no one told you in time.
5) Inspections. Buyers will be much better finding their own inspectors? LOL
6) Due Diligence. Get a lawyer for all those documents, or become an expert yourself. LOL
7) closing statements. You’re an expert in that and noticing any discrepancies, right.
8) Zoning, RE issues. Buy a property to live in and run your business out of but oops, no “Home businesses” allowed in RES4 zoning in Smallville
All righty then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stew Pid
But I just don’t understand why BigMacs aren’t better burgers. Who knows? I need a BigMacTM, but I’ll sure as heck bitch about how poor quality meat are in hamburgers.
Should be easier for a good buyer realtor to negotiate an equitable value based fee doing all those things you listed.
Maybe they don't need to stretch their budget so they can afford their realtor. Sounds like something a realtorTM might say..."You can afford it, if you can finance it".Quote:
Originally Posted by Stew Pid
Having lived in a ski town, like 50% of my social circle has their realtors license (slight exaggeration but if you know you know). Every single one of them is delusional in their thinking that this isn't going to radically change the market for not just buyers agents, but also sellers agents as well.
Buyers agents are done. Everyone has zillow or realtor.com, and the idea that realtors were "fiduciaries" and pointing out anything of importance to a buyer just isn't the case. That has always been the lawyers and title guys doing that work. The only people arguing otherwise are realtors. Second, now that hiring a realtor is not a requirement to get on the MLS, sellers agents just lost the moat around their business. In a seller's market, a FSBO can now get on the mls and bypass all of the seller side bullshit. On an average home, there is no reason a sellers agent can justify 15k for a couple open houses or showing up to open a door.
I bet dollars to donuts, this is what you will see:
99% of the buy side will now be handled by the lawyers and title companies for flat fees. These already only cost a couple grand, at most, and are typical closing costs. No change here in terms of cost to the buyer.
On the sell side, you will see ala carte pricing for photos, admin work like placing the listing on the mls, etc. Lets say thats a grand or two. Commissions will drop significantly with pressure from FSBO and discount brokerage firms (redfin, etc). I bet within 5 years the standard is 1%.
Exceptions: ultra-luxe locales like Jackson, Aspen, Hamptons, which will still justify the network of a realtor that hustles and a nice marketing package. But that average 450k home in the burbs, yeah no. The only thing propping up the realtor industry was collusion and the moat surrounding the mls. Both are gone now.
Market price of a home is market price of a home, I don't think you will see much change in overall cost of real estate, but it is going to get cheaper for sellers, and at worst, stay the same for buyers. Within a few years people will realize that there is little a 1k real estate lawyer can't tell you within an hour of research at the town clerks office or just reading p&z regs for the area, and this "fear factor" of buying a house because it is expensive will recede substantially.
^^ this. And RealtorsTM knew it or they wouldn’t have spent all that money lobbying and suing anyone who tried to compete with them.
Anyone questioning whether RealtorsTM are overpaid rent seekers only needs to look at other countries where extremely similar services are provided at a fraction of the cost.
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I'm inclined to agree. In 2008 I sold a condo with no agents on either side and it was stupid easy. Granted, we had bought that condo and a house in the previous 18 months so I already knew how offers/contracts worked, exactly who to call at the Title Co to get it all set up, etc., but ultimately it was not difficult to arrange with essentially a bare minimum of experience. Today, there's no reason you couldn't find all you need to know on Google and Youtube.