Nice Ass to Mouth, is that from a "Guido Bar"?
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Nice Ass to Mouth, is that from a "Guido Bar"?
oh right, the sky is still fallingQuote:
Originally Posted by Benny Profane
No question we're in the shitter in many aspects, but also in prime investment territory for others. Getting a loan on an investment property has been an absolute bitch lately. Granted, I'm buying shit holes (but for dirt cheap). The bank always approves me for the amount of the loan, but then balks at the property I'm wanting to buy. I've purchased two new properties in the last month. On one I had to escrow $8,400 for repairs before the bank would lend. For the other the bank said they didn't think the home was worth the price I had it under contract for and left me hanging (the weirdest thing is I was buying the home from the bank I was borrowing from, we have a long relationship and I do most of my banking there). So I bought the home with my cash instead (that was parked in there bank). I've bought 7 homes this year and EVERY single one has been from a bank or defunct investment group.
The last two deals were bought at under $30 a square foot and should each have a positive cash flow of $400-$500 a month after remodel (more on cash owned properties obviously).
Way to get after it MeatDrink. Nice to read crisis equals opportunity!
you should get an episode on Flip That House:fm:Quote:
Originally Posted by meatdrink9
I attribute all of MD's success to mad, raging, puss-filled gonorrhea.
Getting any kind of loan for Real Estate is exceedingly difficult now. I work for an apartment company that has a long track record (20+) years, and significant relationships with many banks and getting construction loans is difficult and land loans nearly impossible.Quote:
Originally Posted by meatdrink9
When you say cash flow positive of $400 - $500, with what kind of leverage? Do you take typically take a loan to purchase the property and then refinance into a different loan once its fixed up, or is it one loan from the start? You financing the improvements out of cash?
I'm not flipping though. The market is shit for flipping. I doubt I'll ever do a straight flip again (maybe). Buyers are afraid and your potential buyers are going to have a harder time getting a loan. It's a buyers market so as someone trying to sell a flip you have no negotiating power. Plus, if you flip within a year you have short term cap gains taxes and in an up-and-coming area you'd be shorting your investment tremendously to sell right now. I'd do the same amount of remodel work to flip it or rent it, but by selling it now I bet I'd make 1/4th of what I will later if I'm patient.Quote:
Originally Posted by powder11
But, as a buyer/investor/landlord doing what I'm doing it's like the perfect storm. Interest rates are crazy low (great for cash flow). There are tons of deals on bank owned properties. It is a buyer's market. You're in the driver's seat when it comes time to negotiate. Less buyers can qualify meaning more people need rentals (my product). Plus it's a bonus for the community. I take the beat-up, vacant, bank owned properties and turn them into the nicest homes on the block. Then provide affordable housing that is actually pretty damn pimp (other than the location isn't the greatest, yet) hardwood floors, stone counters, stainless appliances etc... (no linoleum, carpet or formica).
I get a lot of satisfaction from the the work. It does keep me up at night. There's a ton of thinking involved, but you learn with every single house. I totally fell into this by accident when I couldn't sell my first house when moving out of state for a job. We ended up keeping it and renting it. It may be the best thing we've ever done financially (by accident). The proceeds from that house (which we sold this year, after owning it 8 years) have already bought us 5 more rentals and will probably end up getting us 10 when all is said and done.
Fucking Slumlord.... ;)
I'm thinking you & my wife should do some shoptalkin', J. Her site is www.grossmuellers.com.
Most homes I buy are in the 55-65K range. I finance maybe 50K of that (always put 20% down). With Principal, Interest, Tax and Insurance my payment is usually right at $400 a month. I typically rent a 3/2 home for about $800 a month.Quote:
Originally Posted by comish
I make the improvements with my own cash. I get that cash through graphic design, previously sold properties, and Realtor commissions (I get money back each time I buy). I don't refinance homes I financed at the start (giving away too much money in closing costs). If I bought a property with cash due to a bank owned scenario that required it or a bank wouldn't lend on the beat-up property I will then refinance that property 6 months from the date of purchase so the refinance will be based on the appraised value rather than the cost of acquisition.
In October I bought 2 homes on one lot for 54K. I will be refinancing that deal in April. After the remodel I'm into the property for 63K. Between the two houses I collect $1,000 a month in rent. If I refinance for 65K I'll still be cash positive $500 a month and I'll have all of my money back to move onto the next projects. It's like I got the houses for free (other than my remodel time) and still get $500 a month from it.
You've got to have some financial stability (investment money, most from real estate sales, 1 flip, and our first house) to play the game the way I am now, but I can't see a time where I NEED to sell a property anytime in the near future. I would maybe like to sell and upgrade our home at some point, but the investments/rentals are there for the long haul and the plan is to just keep stacking them.
Really nice work on there. We've got the Emeco chairs in our kitchen as well. It wouldn't pay to sink too much money into the location I'm currently working in right now. I'll upload a few pics I post on craigslist to show the rentals. They look really nice and are, but by doing most of the work myself the remodels don't cost much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tippster
Here's a copy of the logo I use. It basically sums up what I'm doing, real estate recycling. Also makes you seem more professional and get more honest vendor bids to have business cards and all that stuff.
http://www.machinehousellc.com/web_page2.jpg
Here are some pics of my 60K "slums":
Bathroom I built from scratch in an unfinished attic:
http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...1&d=1203825367
The finished attic space (bamboo floors, dusty as this pic was during the build out):
http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...1&d=1203825378
The front room of one the two houses on one lot deal:
http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...3&d=1203825378
Kitchen from one of the two houses on one lot project:
http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...1&d=1203825378
Part of the kitchen from another property:
http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...1&d=1203825378
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Remodel Stoke!!!
Hells yeah. Sweet work and business. Thanks for putting out some different scenarios.
I see some faux could that be some plaster finish on the attic pic? bathroom, great room ? Looks good.
Your slums are sick.
Your a realtor too?
Great to see some perspective on it here out intermtn west. This area of Ut,Id,Wyo,Nev,Mt, the nice areas of these states will continue to grow as more people discover how its just as nice as some spots that are more discovered. Just less crowded. This forum is a ski based forum and the best skiing/lifestyle hype is in the west. Buts it always L.A. this or Wisconsin that or New Jersey that. The whole location thing. Broadbrushin dont work.
My wife hopefully will get on the books with some real earnings and we gots upward near $75' 000 in a low market equity and I too shall be shopping.
I look at both my properties with attitude of affordability of payments and can I live with decision. I am not busting my ass to pay for a house i cant afford.
But were probably all doomed and everyone will be sellin apples. If were lucky.;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by meatdrink9
very impressive but where exactly do you live that you're able to buy 3/2 houses for $55,000?? that people are willing to pay $500 to rent much less $1,000? you sir have hit the jackpot, most people are lucky to cover their mortgage on a rental property, you're getting a 150% return.. thats nuts.
Meatdrink, could you divulge where you are doing the recycling?
grapedrink & enlosandes, the location is downtown Ogden, Utah. Do a search online on any public MLS. There are over 160 homes for sale under 100K right now. Another main reason for the hold strategy is the all the positives that are happening with Ogden. It's quickly becoming a ski industry town.
Amer sports (Salomon, Atomic, Sunnto, etc...) just moved their HQ there. The entire city is getting money pumped in like crazy. DNA, Goode, and others are also HQ'd here. I've been buying near the Salomon Center, historic 25th street (restaurants, art galleries, bars), and the river development.
Commuter rail will be connected to the city by this fall and the freeway improvements (legacy highway north out of SLC) should be done as well. The train and freeway improvements will make it easy for SLC commuters and Ogden is the last cheap space along the Wasatch. It's also just 20-30 minutes from some damn fine skiing (I know a couple of mags who can ski to their house and they paid under 150K). It is pretty scary in places still, but I think it's going to change. I've seen a lot of changes just in the year I've been investing. The worst houses always get bought up by people like myself.
There are still rumors of a west side ski resort (city gondola is dead in the water though). If the resort did come about and they connected it with a trolley (the gondola opposition's idea). Ogden would have the first ski-in ski-out University in the country (Weber State, you could run laps between classes). With commuter rail you could also go directly from the airport to lifts all on mass transit (train, trolley, gondola). A lot of this stuff is still speculation, but even if it doesn't become a resort town and just catches up to the rest of the Wasatch life will be very good.
It is good to be on site if you're investing though. It's still a tough town and the reason I'm able to make a lot of my projects work is that I can be there working on them. It is possible to buy homes already fixed up for around $50 a square foot (post flips, flippers think their doing well pulling 20-30K per property). But obviously your rental cash flow won't be as good and you're playing more of a speculation game at that point.
I wouldn't call it just yet, the election just happened and what I know about this Mayor is that he's a bulldog once he gets an idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by meatdrink9
I need to get in on this rental action but it's a hard decision for me, I need to break away from my conventional wisdom. I can do some of the work myself and I'm learning more all of the time (obviously I don't put out a polished project like MD). J, I need to come check out some of your new places.
i would say the 150% positive cash flow return is reason enough for the hold :) the rest is just gravy. i'm just amazed that you can buy a 3 bed, 2 bath house on actual land near a paved road for $55,000 anywhere in north america.Quote:
Originally Posted by meatdrink9
meatdrink, way to kill it. I do remodels with a similar aesthetic, but the problem is that you can't touch anything that's not about to fall down for under $175K here and more like $200 in Missoula. Impossible to cash flow anything unless you are putting down $100K.
What's your wall finish, is that some sort of plaster?
flyk, give me a shout this week and I'd be happy to show them to you. The one by MOE's house is keyboxed so you could check it out anytime you want. I'll be skiing mon-wed for sure, but stopping by houses for a few hours of work after.
grapedrink, I've attached a screengrab of the current Ogden MLS so you can see an example of what's out there. Ogden is a deal compared to the rest of the country and I'm buying the properties that are deals for Ogden. I watch the MLS like a hawk (multiple searches every single day).
Rootskier, it's just a light hand troweled mud finish. Then you use a combination of paint and water and paint directly onto the mud (no primer). It really turns out nice.
Here's a quick frame from the MLS:
http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...1&d=1203876151
Thanks for being so candid MeatDrink. Rich Dad would be proud of your doings. One more question. Do you property manage these or are do you have someone doing it for you?
I currently manage them myself. My phone does ring more than I'd like when I'm renting a property. There will definitely come a time when I let someone else handle that aspect of the job (collecting rents, repairs, etc...). I don't put signs in yards or advertise in the NWSP. Everything is done through craigslist or other local online classifieds. I usually end up with great renters and being able to show pics online makes my properties move pretty quick. There's no shortage of "for rent" signs in yards and windows around town.Quote:
Originally Posted by enlosandes
Lawsuit filed against developer
Plaintiffs say they were duped by Teton Springs officials
By PAUL MENSER
Twenty-one people who bought land at the development near Victor want out of their contracts.
Twenty-one people from five states have filed a lawsuit in U.S. District Court claiming they were rooked into investing in the Teton Springs development outside Victor.
Seven couples and seven individuals, most of them from California, say the developer, Teton Springs Golf and Casting Club; its agent, Utah-based Nu Way Partners; and its mortgage broker, Eagle River Mortgage Co, violated federal law and engaged in common-law fraud when they sold the plaintiffs lots and built homes in the Mountain Meadows project that turned out to be way less profitable than what they'd been promised.
The suit, filed Monday, seeks to have the plaintiffs' contracts rescinded or revoked. It also asks for punitive damages to be paid.
J.T. Bramlette, founder of Nu Way Partners, said Wednesday he was unaware of the lawsuit and declined to comment until he'd consulted with legal counsel. Efforts to reach the plaintiffs' attorney, William H. Thomas of the Boise firm of Huntley Park, were unsuccessful.
Much of the 192-page complaint focuses on the behavior of Nu Way, which bought lots in the Mountain Meadows section of Teton Springs and sold them to real estate investment club members.
The company bills itself as "an innovative real estate opportunity and development firm that enables both seasoned members and ambitious entrepreneurs the opportunity to gain financial independence by investing in premium-quality properties in the most sought-after resort locations in the United States."
According to the current issue of Personal Real Estate Investor, the company bought 110 lots in Mountain Meadows at about $140,000 a piece "versus the projected market rate of $250,000." This strategy "amounted to much-needed capital for the developer and then yielded the lowest price point for NuWay members in a desirable second-home resort community," the article said.
The people filing the lawsuit allege that Nu Way agents:
Represented the house/lot parcels as "no risk" investments.
Misrepresented the equity the investors would have once the homes were built.
Told them they'd have no difficulty selling the properties.
Misrepresented the demand for properties in the subdivision.
Told them they could quickly "flip" their properties and make hundreds of thousands of dollars
Told them the developer would buy back the properties.
Told them the possible risks and profits had been thoroughly researched.
Told them Nu Way had extensive and unique real estate investment experience that eliminated the need for the plaintiffs and other investors to undertake their own due diligence.
Pressured the company Rivers Edge to overstate the properties' value in appraisals.
Two plaintiffs, Alan and Christine Wilson of Carlsbad, Calif., said they learned about Mountain Meadows at an April 2006 real estate investors seminar called "Massive Passive Cash." After signing a contract the following month, the Wilsons allege, they learned in October 2006 that the monthly income figure on a retyped loan application had been changed from $12,500 to $35,000.
Another party in the lawsuit, Denise Kamenzind of Victor, alleges that in July 2006 she called an agent for Eagle River Mortgage to express concern about the difference in monthly income she stated on the loan application and the monthly income figure the company's agent had submitted to the lending company, First Horizon. According to the complaint, the agent told her, "$28,000 a month is your current potential future income. I wouldn't worry about it. I've never seen it become a problem."
The Teton Springs development dates back to 2001. Most of the homes have been built on half-acre to three-quarter-acre lots, and property owners have had the flexibility to bring their own builders in.
With Mountain Meadows, a more high-density project, the deal was for Nu Way to be the sole agent and Headwaters to be the builder.
Teton Valley, Idaho, has gotten press from such media as USA Today and CNBC as "the quiet side of the Tetons," where property was relatively cheap in comparison to Jackson Hole, on the other side of Teton Pass.
Staff writer Paul Menser can be reached at 542-6752.
www.ml-implode.com this is the complete written history of the Real Estate crash of 07'.
I have been reading this Blog daily since last March when there were only 23 Wholesale Lender's that had gone under. :eek:
The Teton Springs thing isn't a market crash so much as a self induced implosion.
Hubris, methinks.
same thing, rideit, same thing.
So, bottom line, how much are those houses going for today in Teton Springs.
I haven't really seen any price reductions, or any 'fire sale' activity.
Yet.
(or much activity at all)
Wasn't there two homes last fall, for like 600k, appraised or valued at 1.5mil? Or something like that? Not sure how much the verbal 'misrepresentations' will matter, but fudging the numbers on the credit apps sure might, ya think?
sure do enjoy playing that golf course...
?????Quote:
Originally Posted by rideit
c'mon, what are these people doing litigating about, then? It's gotta be bad if they all got together and hired a lawyer. Not one home has been sold in the past few months?
I'll check.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benny Profane
Maybe that's the problem. Nothing sold. Could be that whole development is underwater for the speculators, so to speak.
How much of that place is built? How many homes are there right now? Is all the "community" stuff done? You know, "clubhouse", pool, blah, blah. I read an article about a similar "community" (heh), that has maybe half the homes built, and most of the common stuff is lumber stacked over concrete. And those people dropped like 700000 for that.
There is actually a hell of a lot done. But it's still a spec ghostown.
there are at least 70 individual trophy homes totally done, probably 20 under construction in some phase or another, as well as the hotel (under const.), pool, clubhouse, golf course, fractional ownership units, etc.
My guess is that 75% of the 'community' stuff is totally done.
I don't think there is threat of it 'going under', but it definitely is taking a kick in the teeth. Hopefully that translates into other 1/2 baked projects simply NOT getting going at all. That would be peachy.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/07/bu...unmore.html?hp
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/...unmore_650.jpg
"Delbert Rapini, a longtime Sacramento contractor who said he was an admirer of George Dunmore, said, “Sid had it made, but he acted like an idiot” by extending himself too far."
http://www.newyorker.com/talk/financ...alk_surowiecki
http://www.newyorker.com/images/2008...17168_p233.jpg
"Homeownership also impedes the economy’s readjustment by tying people down. From a social point of view, it’s beneficial that homeownership encourages commitment to a given town or city. But, from an economic point of view, it’s good for people to be able to leave places where there’s less work and move to places where there’s more. Homeowners are much less likely to move than renters, especially during a downturn, when they aren’t willing (or can’t afford) to sell at market prices. As a result, they often stay in towns even after the jobs leave. That may be why a study of several major developed economies between 1960 and 1996, by the British economist Andrew Oswald, found a strong relationship between increases in homeownership and increases in the unemployment rate; a ten-per-cent increase in homeownership correlated with a two-per-cent increase in unemployment."
I'm surprised no comments on the recent fed actions to bail out the holders of bad debt, .... oops, I meant to say bail out the economy.
From what I read, the holders of packaged, mortgage-backed bonds (which can't be sold 'cause no one is willing to buy them) can now trade these for good ol' US Guv-mint Treasuries (which of course everyone in interested in buying and selling). In this case, 'trade' means swap out, in which case the entity backing the full faith and credit of the Treasury bonds is in effect doing the same for the packaged mortgage bonds. I think I'm missing something in reading this in layman's terms, but isn't the Fed giving something of value to holders of something of practically no value, to the tune of 200 Billion dollars?
Comments?
Good overview of the fed's actions.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...031103060.html
$200 billion is chump change for a much larger problem. Besides too little too late applies in this case. All this money being pumped into an all ready inflation prone economy is not a good thing.
How 'bout them apples?
Freddie Mac sees home prices falling further
Quote:
Originally Posted by Market Watch (from DOWJONES)
^^^ I saw those comments from Freddie Mac.
I don't get the math when they expect prices to fall 15% in total and have about 50% more to go and prices in my neck of the woods are already down 20%:fm:
Does that mean CA will be down about 30% at the end of this in his opinion?
If yes, then maybe I can buy a 2nd home at Mammoth someday:yourock:
And in other news, FannieMae and Freddie just increased their limits here:
TETON COUNTY WYOMING / IDAHO -- $693,750.00
LINCOLN COUNTY, WYOMING -- $417,000 (No Change)
Stand by, Rate Sheet is on the way....