It's Not a Bike Accident When a Car Hits a Rider

Woah woah. Some of you would have serious anger issues on any road here (or a bike path orgasm depending) and still a lot of bikers do the Passes of the alps on bikes. All the time.

But taking The info about horse Power from the wagon thread and seeing this....... America clearly has some road rage issues. And i thought Germany was bad. Where people drive about 2m behind you flashing their lights because you're too slow while you're doing 180kph on the Autobahn [emoji3] ( down herenear the border: usually Swiss drivers with their American powered cars who are not allowed to go faster than 120 at home.)

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Originally Posted by skiballs

I used to ride my horse on the road in Maryland.
Cars, dump trucks, semis , loud motorcycles, no problem
Fucking road bikers freaked him the fuck out.
Animals know things.


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Like

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Originally Posted by Dexter Rutecki

JFC, you're still on about that link and projection, as if it's some novel part of psychology no one ever knew existed until you discovered that link. You don't need to have studied in Vienna to know what it is, and that link didn't provide anything I hadn't heard/read about projection dozens or hundreds of times previously. Is projection something you just realized exists as part of human psychology?

To help you...from your link: attributing one’s own unacceptable urges to another
If you somehow know what my urges are, which I am attributing to others, please enlighten me (hint: you already proved the opposite with respect to me, so don't waste time).

Really funny part is up above in the paragraph where you mention empathy you simply restated the point I made pages ago, but somehow you are so wrapped up in your own thoughts that you can't understand that. (And even being wrapped up in your own thoughts you are telling me what mine are--yes, in some respects you truly understand projection.)

Not sure I'm up for another round of your circular logic--sorry, amigo.

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Again: defensive is a subset. You're hyper-focused on it but I never mentioned it. If I wanted to be a projectionist I would come up with an explanation for your repeated error. If I want to avoid projecting my thoughts onto you I would instead ask why you think that is? (Spoiler: I don't care. Your urges are not and were never relevant to my point.)

I restated your point about empathy as a reference to your point about empathy. I would have thought that was too obvious to miss. No? Good spin, though. Rangy.

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Originally Posted by Dantheman

eta: It's absurd for any modern road to be built without a shoulder. If there a decent shoulder there's no need for bikes to be "slowing everyone else down" and the shoulder benefits all road users (room to pull over if needed, etc.).

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Sorry Dan, I think that one's not a valid point at all if you live in a rural area without a large tax base. A 1m shoulder on both sides of a 10m Rd costs 20% more to build that stretch of Rd would without shoulders. So your 15km $10MM paving job now costs $12MM and doesn't get built cause the county/regional district/special area/municipality/ doesn't have the funds.

Personally, I won't Rd bike on highways because I think I may be killed by someone texting. Motorcycle ok. Mtn bike on trails ok. Rd biking on pavement without traffic (Highwood pass, Alberta or paved pathways), ok.
All of this of course IMHO

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Originally Posted by garyfromterrace

Sorry Dan, I think that one's not a valid point at all if you live in a rural area without a large tax base. A 1m shoulder on both sides of a 10m Rd costs 20% more to build that stretch of Rd would without shoulders. So your 15km $10MM paving job now costs $12MM and doesn't get built cause the county/regional district/special area/municipality/ doesn't have the funds.

Personally, I won't Rd bike on highways because I think I may be killed by someone texting. Motorcycle ok. Mtn bike on trails ok. Rd biking on pavement without traffic (Highwood pass, Alberta or paved pathways), ok.
All of this of course IMHO

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US standard road design is to include a shoulder. Rural roads get them as well, but the primary purpose is to provide room for driver error not necessarily for bikes. There are entire manuals and policy around this as it is a vehicle safety issue.

The issue in the US is we built a ton of car centric urban infrastructure that isn’t designed to safely move bikes or pedestrians. We are currently spending large sums of money rectifying this in many US cities since we kill lots of peds and bikers because if it.

A shoulder on a 35 mph+ road isn’t “safe” IMO but is often the best we can do with the funding.

Shoulders may or may not be paved.

I thought you'd might enjoy some inspiration in this thread from the communist part of the road biking world.
Attachment 380351

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Originally Posted by subtle plague

I thought you'd might enjoy some inspiration in this thread from the communist part of the road biking world.

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Yeah, bike path orgasm right there.

Here's what they're like in Portland:
https://twitter.com/mikekatu/status/...146923527?s=21

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Originally Posted by Dexter Rutecki

JFC, you're still on about that link and projection, as if it's some novel part of psychology no one ever knew existed until you discovered that link. You don't need to have studied in Vienna to know what it is, and that link didn't provide anything I hadn't heard/read about projection dozens or hundreds of times previously. Is projection something you just realized exists as part of human psychology?

To help you...from your link: attributing one’s own unacceptable urges to another
If you somehow know what my urges are, which I am attributing to others, please enlighten me (hint: you already proved the opposite with respect to me, so don't waste time).

Really funny part is up above in the paragraph where you mention empathy you simply restated the point I made pages ago, but somehow you are so wrapped up in your own thoughts that you can't understand that. (And even being wrapped up in your own thoughts you are telling me what mine are--yes, in some respects you truly understand projection.)

Not sure I'm up for another round of your circular logic--sorry, amigo.





Not sure if you're being serious with the motorists stopping for red lights, but I'll say again that I almost never see a car blow through a red light as if it wasn't there, but I see this at least several hundred times a day with cyclists (when I'm walking around for more than 20 or 30 minutes, at least, and if there are cyclists around and I'm on the street for more than a couple minutes and don't see it that's exceptional). Most of them go through red lights, and that's just SOP for them. If I see a car do the same (except for cops, who will often roll slowly through red lights) on any given day or even week that's more than usual. Your second point is basically true.

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Your confirmation bias is showing. People blow through red lights in cars all the time. It’s usually at the change. Pay attention. People are assholes, motorists and cyclists. Again there’s way more motorists.


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Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn

Your confirmation bias is showing. People blow through red lights in cars all the time. It’s usually at the change. Pay attention. People are assholes, motorists and cyclists. Again there’s way more motorists.]

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Shit, I watched some touron from 'Sota make a left turn, on red, across two lanes of traffic on Main St. last night. Worst I saw from a cyclist was one riding the wrong direction in.a bike lane.

Pretty sure it became common knowledge long before we dropped down out of the trees that assholes come in all shapes, colors and sizes, so the horse you guys are all beating on turned to dust and blew away millennia ago.

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Originally Posted by subtle plague

Attachment 380351

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For more information email rad@radnetz.net

Separated bike lanes are not a total utopia. In Holland motorcycles can use them. And it's easy for a tourist in Amsterdam to be run down by a bicycle while watching out for the rare car on the street.
Speaking of motorcycles--at what point do ebikes need to use the traffic lanes.

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Originally Posted by dan_pdx

Yeah, bike path orgasm right there.

Here's what they're like in Portland:
https://twitter.com/mikekatu/status/...146923527?s=21

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3nMnr8ZirI

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Originally Posted by 54-46

Bunch of fucking misanthropes. (Bet many of you had to look that up.)

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMDQYpOLRCU

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Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn

Your confirmation bias is showing. People blow through red lights in cars all the time. It’s usually at the change. Pay attention. People are assholes, motorists and cyclists. Again there’s way more motorists.


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Yeah, sorry, you're wrong. You can say I'm suffering from confirmation bias or whatever, but it doesn't change the facts--and I'm not trying to find anything to prove a point one way or the other. Anyone who has spent even a day in Manhattan could confirm what I've told you, and it's just a joke to say drivers fly through red lights all the time. Cyclists here ride as if the lights don't apply to them (and effectively they don't).

Took a ride over from the Upper East to UWS today. Eight or nine minutes driving. 7 cyclists going through red lights (and zero cars, needless to say--didn't even see a driver try to squeeze a yellow and not make it). The only cyclist I saw who stopped at the light and didn't eventually go through it didn't really have the opportunity to run the light (traffic didn't let up until the end and then he waited--I actually think he wasn't paying attention and might have jumped that light at the end, but he didn't).

When I parked on Amsterdam I watched three cyclists riding the wrong way (downtown on an uptown street). I was parked for probably five minutes. When I got back across town there was a dude on a bike with fat tires riding the wrong way down the literally the middle of Third Avenue.

Normally the numbers woulda been much higher but the city is empty today (very few cars/bikes). Can't help it if you don't want to accept the reality, but it doesn't make sense for you to deny it.

BTW, this is almost as ridiculous as disbelieving the crazy notion that nearly all pedestrians here cross against the light when they are able to. I mean, if I told you that the vast majority of pedestrians don't wait for the light would you also reject that as untrue? People on bikes wait for the light only slightly more often than pedestrians. You can believe otherwise but you won't be right.

Go to 1:20 for video evidence if you don't believe me. Their figure is 80% of cyclists here go through red lights. I think it might be higher--maybe it's gotten worse in the past seven years. You're flat out wrong.

Why are we using NYC as the standard to judge normal human behavior?

I don't blow red lights on a bike, but unless I have to hit the brakes to stop for a cyclist who does it doesn't bother me. IME the great majority of the time when a cyclist does that they have figured out they can get across safely. The percentage of cars that blow red lights is very small but the consequences for others are huge. The number who do it is high enough that I take a peek left and right before I start when the light turns green. Given the potential consequences of each it is ridiculous to compare bikes running reds with cars running reds. The main reason drivers get pissed at riders who do it is being butthurt that someone is getting away with something.

Yeah. I was gonna say. It's NYC. Manhattan FCS.. Central Park even. Faggeddaboutit. No one in NYC cares until someone gets hit and then they'll just step over the body to catch a cab.

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Originally Posted by Dexter Rutecki

BTW, this is almost as ridiculous as disbelieving the crazy notion that nearly all pedestrians here cross against the light when they are able to. I mean, if I told you that the vast majority of pedestrians don't wait for the light would you also reject that as untrue? People on bikes wait for the light only slightly more often than pedestrians. You can believe otherwise but you won't be right.

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True in NYC, but not a lot of other cities. When I lived in Seattle, the culture was very much to wait for the walk sign regardless of where vehicles were.

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Originally Posted by dan_pdx

Yeah, bike path orgasm right there.

Here's what they're like in Portland:
https://twitter.com/mikekatu/status/...146923527?s=21

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Holy shit! I haven’t ridden up there since last summer. There were campers on NE 33rd back then, but not Marine Dr. What a mess!

So, Central Park on a weekend is the measure here? Really?
Not to mention Fox, Dex?

Cuz cars are blocked on weekends, no? So, those red lights illustrated are fallacious indicators and no one watches them when there are no cars, trucks or buses…not pedestrians nor cyclists

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Originally Posted by old goat

Why are we using NYC as the standard to judge normal human behavior?

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Well, Dooshbag Dan the Portland road bike Man just scattered broken glass and homeless camps and raggedy-ass Ranchero-loads of spike strips on my pristine Kenai Peninsula bike paths to give some knucklehead child-abusing skinny-wheeled road bikers a pass for crowding a narrow road bridge full of rental RVs, and because he doesn't like bike path stop signs and other safety measures fucking with his ride through the big city that provides his livelihood.

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Originally Posted by highangle

Well, Dooshbag Dan the Portland road bike Man just scattered broken glass and homeless camps and raggedy-ass Ranchero-loads of spike strips on my pristine Kenai Peninsula bike paths to give some knucklehead child-abusing skinny-wheeled road bikers a pass for crowding a narrow road bridge full of rental RVs, and because he doesn't like bike path stop signs and other safety measures fucking with his ride through the big city that provides his livelihood.

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I am struggling to understand this post

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Originally Posted by MakersTeleMark

90% of road bikers near me deserve to get hit. Fuck them and their entitled clueless attitude. Yeh, riding on a mountain pass road with no shoulder during commute time taking up the middle of the lane or 2-3 abreast on blind corners. Go fuck yourself and die.

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that’s a hot take

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Originally Posted by ill-advised strategy

I am struggling to understand this post

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It may take years.

The car ppl who want to run over cyclists also get bent out of shape when a logging truck vaporizes somebody in a car.

I thought might made right though? Bigger just gets to mow down smaller right?

Oh not if it’s you, though, getting nuked by a dumptruck in your teensy little car…that logic stops at exactly whatever level makes you the apex predator…gotcha!

been hit twice. one double flip over the roof of the car, one near t bone. fun times

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Originally Posted by highangle

It may take years.

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You're like sfb in angry. I like your take no prisoners approach.

Team up with maker's telemark at the next burning man and take your anger out on some ketamin freak who wants to invade your camp.

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Originally Posted by subtle plague

You're like sfb in angry. I like your take no prisoners approach.

Team up with maker's telemark at the next burning man and take your anger out on some ketamin freak who wants to invade your camp.

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You put your skinny low bone density ass in my hands every time you tension up your Vento Infinito Carbon 2s and wobble up a fog line.
Not OK with that? Consider using the bike paths instead of the busy roads right next to them.

I do my best to keep cyclists safe when im driving eg. cross the centerline to give them more room, wait to pass when its safe even if its a minute or more, block the bike lane when turning right so they cant sneak up on my right side and get squished, etc. I even try to give the benefit of the doubt to the cyclists who exhibit poor etiquette or bike handling skills that objectively put themselves in danger... i just give them more room, or wait a few more seconds to get around them. Last thing i want to do is hurt, maim or kill someone.

But, and this is a big BUT, they are waaay smaller visually than 95% of road users that a car driver is used to seeing and looking for, typically go a vastly different speed than car traffic, and have no functional protection should they impact a car. It adds up to a very dangerous situation for them. Cyclists will be accidentally not seen far more than cars, the road user speed differentials are very dangerous (hence why speed limits exist), and nearly any accident will prove to be pretty serious for the cyclist. Separated bike lanes and routes are needed for bike commuters in urban areas, and for the folks recreationally pursuing road biking who ride mountain roads and highways there will always be a high risk of serious injury from a car hitting them or running them off the road- similar to the known risk of us skiers driving rogers pass (or many other mountain passes) in a snowstorm.

In a way you're not wrong, but there's something really insidious about blaming cyclists when motorists can't see them.

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Originally Posted by Thaleia

In a way you're not wrong, but there's something really insidious about blaming cyclists when motorists can't see them.

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Its not only that they are more difficult to see because they are smaller, its that as a driver you are used to looking for car-sized obstacles and so pedestrians and cyclists can slip through your scan easily. Ironically, if there were more cyclists i bet it would be safer as they would be a common thing to look out for and something that size would click in a drivers brain as an obstacle. And no, its not the cyclists fault. But it also seems to be a general fault of the human brain to ignore what you arent actively looking out for (see the gorilla and basketball passing video). More cyclists would also reduce the thinking of "drivers owning the road" and cyclists just being annoyances and lesser users- thus likely reducing dangerous driving around cyclists.

The other day I am getting my better half comfortable with how to drive stick in the country since she's been riding the subway for ten years and we have to make a right from a 55 to a pothole infested sandy uphill local road. There's very little shoulder to speak of while crossing a river so she has her blinker on early and is over almost as much as possible. When she goes to finally make the turn the driver behind just lays into the horn for the slight inconvenience of having to slow down for a few seconds so someone could make their turn. She was pretty freaked out and asking me what she did wrong but it wasn't her fault that people are just fucking assholes. Now imagine being on a bike and having that happen, fuck.

When it comes to cars vs bikes, if you equal out the ass holedness, I generally favor the cyclist, however .....
This morning while waiting at an intersection that was one of those red light all around stops so pedestrians can cross wherever they want including diagonally, a cyclist roars though with absolutely no hesitation. There were pedestrians crossing. If there had been no pedestrians and he had at least slowed to demonstrate his awareness then it probably wouldn't have even registered. I did get a chuckle out of the numerous hairy eyeballs given by the pedestrians.

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Originally Posted by PB

When it comes to cars vs bikes, if you equal out the ass holedness, I generally favor the cyclist, however .....
This morning while waiting at an intersection that was one of those red light all around stops so pedestrians can cross wherever they want including diagonally, a cyclist roars though with absolutely no hesitation. There were pedestrians crossing. If there had been no pedestrians and he had at least slowed to demonstrate his awareness then it probably wouldn't have even registered. I did get a chuckle out of the numerous hairy eyeballs given by the pedestrians.

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I mean, if you proceeded like you were supposed to because you didn't see the dickhead running the stop at full speed (or saw him but expected him to stop), and shit went south, no one would hold it against you. You might not be able to recover any money for your bodywork though, which would suck. There's a difference between being a flagrant asshole and riding where / how the law requires; it's the second case where I think many drivers need to improve. Having said that, around here, 95% of drivers coexist well with cyclists, it's just that last 5% tends to make an impression, sometimes literally.

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Originally Posted by ml242

The other day I am getting my better half comfortable with how to drive stick in the country since she's been riding the subway for ten years and we have to make a right from a 55 to a pothole infested sandy uphill local road. There's very little shoulder to speak of while crossing a river so she has her blinker on early and is over almost as much as possible. When she goes to finally make the turn the driver behind just lays into the horn for the slight inconvenience of having to slow down for a few seconds so someone could make their turn. She was pretty freaked out and asking me what she did wrong but it wasn't her fault that people are just fucking assholes. Now imagine being on a bike and having that happen, fuck.

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I drive a vehicle in which I got hit from behind by a normal passenger car going 60mph and it was like a bit of a bump to me in my seat and made a scratch on the rear bumper…that’s it…and it balled the car up into a wad of metal.
In that huge car-destroying commercial vehicle people still pull in front of me, brake-check me, swing car doors open into my lane…all of it.

Cars are too safe, too comfortable, and too fast…it should be way way harder to get and keep a drivers license and way easier to use transit, cycle, motorcycle, or moped/scooter.

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Originally Posted by ill-advised strategy

I drive a vehicle in which I got hit from behind by a normal passenger car going 60mph and it was like a bit of a bump to me in my seat and made a scratch on the rear bumper…that’s it…and it balled the car up into a wad of metal.
In that huge car-destroying commercial vehicle people still pull in front of me, brake-check me, swing car doors open into my lane…all of it.

Cars are too safe, too comfortable, and too fast…it should be way way harder to get and keep a drivers license and way easier to use transit, cycle, motorcycle, or moped/scooter.

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Amen brother.


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Originally Posted by ill-advised strategy

I drive a vehicle in which I got hit from behind by a normal passenger car going 60mph and it was like a bit of a bump to me in my seat and made a scratch on the rear bumper…that’s it…and it balled the car up into a wad of metal.
In that huge car-destroying commercial vehicle people still pull in front of me, brake-check me, swing car doors open into my lane…all of it.

Cars are too safe, too comfortable, and too fast…it should be way way harder to get and keep a drivers license and way easier to use transit, cycle, motorcycle, or moped/scooter.

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Agree; although there is a small number of cyclists who have a similar feeling of misplaced safety due their feeling of nimbleness and maneuverability; same with skateboarders, one wheelers and e-scooters.