It's Not a Bike Accident When a Car Hits a Rider

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Originally Posted by Dexter Rutecki

(when was the last time you were driving and just flew through every red light in your path without even slowing down? Bikes do that tens of thousands of times every day just where I live).

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Most of the folks upset over people on bikes breaking the law break the law themselves. It's just that sometimes people on bikes break the law in different ways than drivers do. The fact is, based on multiple studies using video cameras at intersections, show people in cars break the rules more often. The vast majority of people on bikes, even in NYC, obey traffic lights.

Every year about 50,000 people on bikes are hit by cars in America. Whereas in NYC, for example, people on bikes on average hit and kill two pedestrians and injure another 170. In comparison, about 150 pedestrians and about 25 cyclists are killed by people driving cars in NYC with another 8,400 or so pedestrians and cyclists injured by cars in the city.

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Originally Posted by dan_pdx

Really? Because any time I drive the speed limit on any road, almost all other drivers will pass me, or tailgate if passing isn't possible. And I'm sure you know that the number of cyclist-caused injuries is an insignificant fraction of the number of injuries caused by motorists, right?

W/E, this is pretty much like discussing politics at this point, we're just bloviating to hear ourselves talk and no opinions will be changed. I'll still ride (on snow) with any of you guys any time except that one asshole.

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No, you're correct if you include speeding, and I thought of that when wrote what I did, which is why I said 'traffic rules like red lights.' Obviously most cars exceed the speed limit much of the time (since Dan pointed out that where I live is kind of an exception I'll note that probably half the time I'm driving I can't even reach the speed limit, which is 25, but that's a different story). But I think nearly everyone accepts that breaking the speed limit is generally going to be tolerated--especially since it's safer to drive 65 in a 55 if most of the cars around you are going 70, or something like that. Bikes when possible also exceed speed limits (I have heard of cyclists being issued speeding tickets, even, although that may be myth). I just think blowing through red lights and going the wrong way on one way streets is in a different category.

Down for the ski whenever...

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Originally Posted by MultiVerse

The vast majority of people on bikes, even in NYC, obey traffic lights.

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Well, you're going to have to prove that one to me, because I can essentially guarantee you that that's not the case. I know it's still anecdotal, but I've live in the city for over 25 years and that statement just seems impossible. It may be the case that the majority of cyclists SOMETIMES obey traffic lights, but I could go outside now and take video to prove to you that very few cyclists stop at the lights and wait for green (they don't all do the riding through at full speed while turning onto an avenue thing--that's mostly a delivery guy maneuver). I would say even among those who come to a stop, most of those people tend to proceed before the light turns green (when oncoming traffic stops or there is a gap they just go again), and the most common is slowing down without a stop before going through the light.

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Every year about 50,000 people on bikes are hit by cars in America. Whereas in NYC, for example, people on bikes hit and kill two pedestrians and injure another 170, on average. In comparison, about 150 pedestrians and about 25 cyclists are killed by people driving cars in NYC, and another 8,400 or so pedestrians and cyclists are injured by cars.

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I know, I have seen exactly those numbers in the past (Transportation Alternatives?). Of course there are vastly larger numbers of drivers so naturally they would be involved in more accidents, but I'm guessing even if you adjust for that to get a per mile traveled number or something the cars are still going to be causing more crashes.

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Originally Posted by Dexter Rutecki

Well, no--again, I explicitly told you I am not trying to put anyone in their place, so you projecting that onto me is still incorrect and is the irony of you doing exactly what you want ascribe to me. Third try still hasn't done it for you here.



OK, sure. Everyone is suffering from the same delusion about these people. Really? That's what you want to claim? How about when a car very apparently intentionally endangers a cyclist? How do you know what's in the driver's head? You're just projecting, amirite? Come on, man. Don't be pedantic about this (and having confronted a few cyclists over the years about exactly their behavior I am very certain about at least part of their motivation--of course I can't say what their thoughts were, but their responses when confronted and their actions made clear to me what I already basically knew--that's not projection, that's just accepting reality).

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That's a lot of words and denial just to concede the fact, but thanks for getting there eventually.

I'm not going to address the irrelevant stuff, cause I'm not going to read it that carefully anyway. The reason this is relevant to you is that you were complaining about people not understanding each other. That's a widespread problem because projection is easier: we don't need to improve our understanding if we already "know" everything. Empathy? Too much work.

It is mildly amusing watching you spend hours complaining about the seconds lost behind slow moving vehicles and all the sins of your imagined enemies, though. [/drift]

I once got a ticket for running a stop sign in a bike in a neighborhood in Jackson WY at 10 PM. When I called my insurance company to ask if it would drive up my rates, the customer service agent laughed and then asked me what my real question was. She had to escalate the call to her boss.

They asked that I send a copy of the citation being sure to include the portion that mentioned that I was on a bicycle.

While we're at it--when turning right in a car please pull as far to the right as possible including the bike lane before turning so a through cyclist can pass you on the left. And signal of course. One of the most popular ways to get killed riding a bike is by being hit by a car turning right from too far left. As a cyclist, when you see that situation--even if the car is stopped with right turn signal on--you have no idea if the car is going to wait for you to pass on the right or is going to wait until you're next to them and then decide to turn. It's the law in CA and likely a lot of other places.

And if you are going to pass the cyclist just before your turn best to wait behind them and let them go. The cyclist needs plenty of time to figure out if they can safely pass on the left or if they need to wait behind you until you make the turn.

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Originally Posted by Peruvian

Close, but in most states and in most circumstances cyclists have as much right to use the roadway as a vehicle. In other words, legally I can ride my bike down the middle of the lane without concern for vehicles getting backed up behind me. If I move over at all to provide some space for a vehicle to pass me, I am already being polite and making it easier for the drivers. There are many times that 'taking the lane' and riding in the middle of the road (in towns and cities for example) is the safest option available to the cyclist to avoid getting doored (hit by someone exiting a parked vehicle), squeezed to the curb by a passing car, etc.

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Bikes are required to follow the same laws as cars in exchange for the right to use the road.

That means its illegal for slow vehicles to hold up more than 5 others without pulling over in the first safe spot.

In towns with 25 mphish speed limits and stoplights its not a problem but on 2 lane curvu country roads roads it happens a lot and eventually people get pissed and start passing unsafely...

What ever happened to Hot Pizza guy??

Whoa! Nobody calling for the licensing of cyclists in this thread yet? I pay taxes blah blah blah? Most car drivers couldn't make it two blocks without making one or more driving errors. Does seem like a bit of progress though on that licensing comment:D

I've been completely run over by a diesel dually on a road bike. Laid me up for months and erased my face. I've never injured or come close to intimidating a cyclist.

My point is that the cyclists near me are shit heads.

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Originally Posted by MakersTeleMark

I've been completely run over by a diesel dually on a road bike. Laid me up for months and erased my face. I've never injured or come close to intimidating a cyclist.

My point is that the cyclists near me are shit heads.

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Actually no, you said this

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Originally Posted by MakersTeleMark

90% of road bikers near me deserve to get hit. Fuck them and their entitled clueless attitude. Yeh, riding on a mountain pass road with no shoulder during commute time taking up the middle of the lane or 2-3 abreast on blind corners. Go fuck yourself and die.

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Originally Posted by Peruvian

Close, but in most states and in most circumstances cyclists have as much right to use the roadway as a vehicle. In other words, legally I can ride my bike down the middle of the lane without concern for vehicles getting backed up behind me. If I move over at all to provide some space for a vehicle to pass me, I am already being polite and making it easier for the drivers. There are many times that 'taking the lane' and riding in the middle of the road (in towns and cities for example) is the safest option available to the cyclist to avoid getting doored (hit by someone exiting a parked vehicle), squeezed to the curb by a passing car, etc.

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In California bicycles are required to ride as close to the right edge of the pavement as practical, in single file unless they can both fit into a bike lane. They don't have to ride through gravel or broken glass etc to do so. I haven't seen anything in the CVC that particularly addresses riding in the center of the lane to prevent cars from making an unsafe pass. I do that when necessary.

Around here the number one reason for a bike to be blocking traffic is that a car is parked in the bike lane.

Glad to see they're widening Donner Pass Rd between Donner Lake and Donner Summit. There will be a continuous bike lane westbound (climbing) and partial bike lanes where possible eastbound. But most descending bikes go as fast or faster than the cars.

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Originally Posted by jono

I realize I was mistaken but won't directly admit it.

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FIFY. Not sure if it counts as strike four, but it's close.

OK, sure.

You still haven't really clicked that link, have you? You can admit it.

So my buddy who rode a bike 55000 kms across Canada/ down the east coast/ into mexico/ on to tierra del fuego and back said to me

" once we got across the border into Mexico I felt a lot safer "

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Originally Posted by Thaleia

Actually no, you said this

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Do you have a problem with reading comprehension?

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Originally Posted by Dexter Rutecki

Haha, cyclists stopping for red lights. You're killing me here.

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Haha, motorists stopping for red lights, you’re killing me here

Everyone on the road is an asshole today. There’s way more motorists than bike riders.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

I used to ride my horse on the road in Maryland.
Cars, dump trucks, semis , loud motorcycles, no problem
Fucking road bikers freaked him the fuck out.
Animals know things.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by jono

OK, sure.

You still haven't really clicked that link, have you? You can admit it.

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JFC, you're still on about that link and projection, as if it's some novel part of psychology no one ever knew existed until you discovered that link. You don't need to have studied in Vienna to know what it is, and that link didn't provide anything I hadn't heard/read about projection dozens or hundreds of times previously. Is projection something you just realized exists as part of human psychology?

To help you...from your link: attributing one’s own unacceptable urges to another
If you somehow know what my urges are, which I am attributing to others, please enlighten me (hint: you already proved the opposite with respect to me, so don't waste time).

Really funny part is up above in the paragraph where you mention empathy you simply restated the point I made pages ago, but somehow you are so wrapped up in your own thoughts that you can't understand that. (And even being wrapped up in your own thoughts you are telling me what mine are--yes, in some respects you truly understand projection.)

Not sure I'm up for another round of your circular logic--sorry, amigo.

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Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn

Haha, motorists stopping for red lights, you’re killing me here

Everyone on the road is an asshole today. There’s way more motorists than bike riders.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

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Not sure if you're being serious with the motorists stopping for red lights, but I'll say again that I almost never see a car blow through a red light as if it wasn't there, but I see this at least several hundred times a day with cyclists (when I'm walking around for more than 20 or 30 minutes, at least, and if there are cyclists around and I'm on the street for more than a couple minutes and don't see it that's exceptional). Most of them go through red lights, and that's just SOP for them. If I see a car do the same (except for cops, who will often roll slowly through red lights) on any given day or even week that's more than usual. Your second point is basically true.

Bunch of fucking misanthropes. (Bet many of you had to look that up.)

Woah woah. Some of you would have serious anger issues on any road here (or a bike path orgasm depending) and still a lot of bikers do the Passes of the alps on bikes. All the time.

But taking The info about horse Power from the wagon thread and seeing this....... America clearly has some road rage issues. And i thought Germany was bad. Where people drive about 2m behind you flashing their lights because you're too slow while you're doing 180kph on the Autobahn [emoji3] ( down herenear the border: usually Swiss drivers with their American powered cars who are not allowed to go faster than 120 at home.)

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Originally Posted by skiballs

I used to ride my horse on the road in Maryland.
Cars, dump trucks, semis , loud motorcycles, no problem
Fucking road bikers freaked him the fuck out.
Animals know things.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Like

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Originally Posted by Dexter Rutecki

JFC, you're still on about that link and projection, as if it's some novel part of psychology no one ever knew existed until you discovered that link. You don't need to have studied in Vienna to know what it is, and that link didn't provide anything I hadn't heard/read about projection dozens or hundreds of times previously. Is projection something you just realized exists as part of human psychology?

To help you...from your link: attributing one’s own unacceptable urges to another
If you somehow know what my urges are, which I am attributing to others, please enlighten me (hint: you already proved the opposite with respect to me, so don't waste time).

Really funny part is up above in the paragraph where you mention empathy you simply restated the point I made pages ago, but somehow you are so wrapped up in your own thoughts that you can't understand that. (And even being wrapped up in your own thoughts you are telling me what mine are--yes, in some respects you truly understand projection.)

Not sure I'm up for another round of your circular logic--sorry, amigo.

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Again: defensive is a subset. You're hyper-focused on it but I never mentioned it. If I wanted to be a projectionist I would come up with an explanation for your repeated error. If I want to avoid projecting my thoughts onto you I would instead ask why you think that is? (Spoiler: I don't care. Your urges are not and were never relevant to my point.)

I restated your point about empathy as a reference to your point about empathy. I would have thought that was too obvious to miss. No? Good spin, though. Rangy.

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Originally Posted by Dantheman

eta: It's absurd for any modern road to be built without a shoulder. If there a decent shoulder there's no need for bikes to be "slowing everyone else down" and the shoulder benefits all road users (room to pull over if needed, etc.).

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Sorry Dan, I think that one's not a valid point at all if you live in a rural area without a large tax base. A 1m shoulder on both sides of a 10m Rd costs 20% more to build that stretch of Rd would without shoulders. So your 15km $10MM paving job now costs $12MM and doesn't get built cause the county/regional district/special area/municipality/ doesn't have the funds.

Personally, I won't Rd bike on highways because I think I may be killed by someone texting. Motorcycle ok. Mtn bike on trails ok. Rd biking on pavement without traffic (Highwood pass, Alberta or paved pathways), ok.
All of this of course IMHO

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Originally Posted by garyfromterrace

Sorry Dan, I think that one's not a valid point at all if you live in a rural area without a large tax base. A 1m shoulder on both sides of a 10m Rd costs 20% more to build that stretch of Rd would without shoulders. So your 15km $10MM paving job now costs $12MM and doesn't get built cause the county/regional district/special area/municipality/ doesn't have the funds.

Personally, I won't Rd bike on highways because I think I may be killed by someone texting. Motorcycle ok. Mtn bike on trails ok. Rd biking on pavement without traffic (Highwood pass, Alberta or paved pathways), ok.
All of this of course IMHO

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US standard road design is to include a shoulder. Rural roads get them as well, but the primary purpose is to provide room for driver error not necessarily for bikes. There are entire manuals and policy around this as it is a vehicle safety issue.

The issue in the US is we built a ton of car centric urban infrastructure that isn’t designed to safely move bikes or pedestrians. We are currently spending large sums of money rectifying this in many US cities since we kill lots of peds and bikers because if it.

A shoulder on a 35 mph+ road isn’t “safe” IMO but is often the best we can do with the funding.