To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

There is evidence that being well rested vs sleep deprived has effects on your immune system (which makes sense - if you are sleep deprived you are more susceptible to infection due to temporary immune supression)

But there is also evidence that being well rested can improve your body's response to vaccine

Sleep enhances the human antibody response to hepatitis A vaccination

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/14508028/

I'll defer to the smarter and very helpful immunology folks in here for their ideas on this. But there isn't any harm to being well rested in advance and just after you get your shots (and lay off the heavy drinking in celebration of getting the shot - at least for a couple days)

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Originally Posted by frorider

New guidelines: all states should get anyone over 65 vaxxed, and those under 65 with comorbidities

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In response to opening it up for us younger geezers, I immediately registered - Shirley I'll get my shot by tomorrow.

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Originally Posted by old goat

Meanwhile Sacramento is still trying to figure out how to give the vaccine and to whom first. They've had months to figure this out. More meeting planned. While I get the idea that the most vulnerable populations (ie POC) should be prioritized, wasting time trying to be sure everything is absolutely, totally, precisely, completely fair kills everybody, especially POC. And they're still hung up on trying to convince every last person to get the shots when there isn't nearly enough vaccine for all the people who don't need convincing, and won't be for a long time. (Maybe we need a great businessman to figure this out; I know one who'll be leaving his current position in 8 days who might be interested.)

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Seriously. This is a total fucking failure by Newsome and California. Bullshit like this is why people hate the government.

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Originally Posted by bennymac

There is evidence that being well rested vs sleep deprived has effects on your immune system (which makes sense - if you are sleep deprived you are more susceptible to infection due to temporary immune supression)

But there is also evidence that being well rested can improve your body's response to vaccine

Sleep enhances the human antibody response to hepatitis A vaccination

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/14508028/

I'll defer to the smarter and very helpful immunology folks in here for their ideas on this. But there isn't any harm to being well rested in advance and just after you get your shots (and lay off the heavy drinking in celebration of getting the shot - at least for a couple days)

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Wow, new shit has come to light.

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Originally Posted by frorider

New guidelines: all states should get anyone over 65 vaxxed, and those under 65 with comorbidities

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CO said "nope, goal is 70% of 70+ first."

My guess is we do educators second because relatively few vaccines can have a huge impact by safetying and ensuring continuous in person K-12 learning.

After that we ought to go with the 65+ and comorbid<65, but there are a ton of essential worker groups advocating for their being next.

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Originally Posted by Summit

CO said "nope, goal is 70% of 70+ first."

My guess is we do educators second because relatively few vaccines can have a huge impact by safetying and ensuring continuous in person K-12 learning.

After that we ought to go with the 65+ and comorbid<65, but there are a ton of essential worker groups advocating for their being next.

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Are vaccines at this stage really going to ensure continuous in person learning? Aren't quarantines amongst kids just as a big of a factor as sick teachers?

Our daycare has closed twice this year because staff has to take time off to watch kids who are under quarantine.

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Originally Posted by funkendrenchman

Are vaccines at this stage really going to ensure continuous in person learning? Aren't quarantines amongst kids just as a big of a factor as sick teachers?

Our daycare has closed twice this year because staff has to take time off to watch kids who are under quarantine.

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Yeah, there's an equivalence there, but as AMS is currently out because of too many teachers quarantined, staff vaccinations has a big upside. I think our school goes remote if 6 or more staff (10%) are out with symptoms/quarantined. A short leash like that sucks and has a big effect on the rest of the community.

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Originally Posted by alpinevibes

Yeah, there's an equivalence there, but as AMS is currently out because of too many teachers quarantined, staff vaccinations has a big upside. I think our school goes remote if 6 or more staff (10%) are out with symptoms/quarantined. A short leash like that sucks and has a big effect on the rest of the community.

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Without knowing if vaccines prevent spread, we can't necessarily stop the practice of quarantining teachers. In my mind, the only thing vaccinating teachers prevents is teachers getting sick which on it's own I'm totally fine with as they are some of the most important members of the community,

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Originally Posted by neufox47

Seriously. This is a total fucking failure by Newsome and California. Bullshit like this is why people hate the government.

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They're blaming the software. Nobody who has ever had to deal with the CA DMV would be surprised. But why do we need software to give vaccines. You need syringes, needles, and someone with hands to give the shots. The more complicated they make it the slower it goes. Line people up and give them the shots. Give them a card that says they're vaccinated. Let them wait 15 minutes to make sure they don't die. You don't even have to take their names. People are dying and they're trying to run this thing like it's registering your car.

In Sacramento they're opening the State Fair as a mass vaccination site--for HCW's only for now. But why aren't they being done at work. Isn't that where the freezers are and people who know how to give shots? And they're supposed to make an appointment, which is ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Summit

CO said "nope, goal is 70% of 70+ first."

My guess is we do educators second because relatively few vaccines can have a huge impact by safetying and ensuring continuous in person K-12 learning.

After that we ought to go with the 65+ and comorbid<65, but there are a ton of essential worker groups advocating for their being next.

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Trying to do it by job is just another way to slow the process down.

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Originally Posted by funkendrenchman

Without knowing if vaccines prevent spread, we can't necessarily stop the practice of quarantining teachers. In my mind, the only thing vaccinating teachers prevents is teachers getting sick which on it's own I'm totally fine with as they are some of the most important members of the community,

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True, but since a quarantine is required for a positive test result, exposure and having two or more symptoms, full vaccination effectively removes two of those barriers to keep teachers in the classrooms and schools in-person. Additionally, our staff wears KN95's at all times and it would be up to the County to decide if a school-based exposure potential would still require quarantine, post-vaccination.

FWIW, our school has done four cycles of full staff testing recently and has had no positives. One staff member tested positive in between because of exposure to a direct contact who was still doing their day-to-day activities, with symptoms, before their positive result came back. For their volume of testing, I think ASD also has had pretty low positives in their staff, though the December shitshow of personal responsibility in our county probably tipped that.

Wife gets #2 Pfizer vaccine today and I’m 3 weeks out from Moderna #1. She was fine after her first vaccine, but I had a headache and nausea the next day. Could have been the 3 pints of stout, but hard to say. It was not a well controlled study.

I’m not following much of the bench science on these and am wondering if anyone has read anything about vaccine efficacy in relation to antipyretic use. There was a bit of stuff a few years back saying that some(I don’t recall which one/s) pediatric vaccines were a bit less effective if antipyretic were given after vaccination. Is there any science about this with the covid vaccinations?

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Originally Posted by old goat

Trying to do it by job is just another way to slow the process down.

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I disagree.

The problem has NEVER been lack of demand from overly exclusive criteria.

The problem is the logistics of setting up PODs, staffing them, supplying them, and making sure people know when/how to get there. If you solve that, your rate limiting step will be vaccine supply; you can set whatever criteria you want and still have to turn people away.

Second dose of Pfizer vaccine Monday. Nothing but a little tenderness yesterday, no other problem.


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Wife had her second Pfizer on Monday and felt much better than after the first. Now we are both vaccinated for the Vid!!

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by timackie

Wife gets #2 Pfizer vaccine today and I’m 3 weeks out from Moderna #1. She was fine after her first vaccine, but I had a headache and nausea the next day. Could have been the 3 pints of stout, but hard to say. It was not a well controlled study.

I’m not following much of the bench science on these and am wondering if anyone has read anything about vaccine efficacy in relation to antipyretic use. There was a bit of stuff a few years back saying that some(I don’t recall which one/s) pediatric vaccines were a bit less effective if antipyretic were given after vaccination. Is there any science about this with the covid vaccinations?

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My understanding is that Tylenol or ibuprofen shouldn’t interfere with vaccine effectiveness. Those medications shouldn’t compromise your immune systems response. But I defer to the vaccine/immunology experts in here.

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Originally Posted by timackie

I’m not following much of the bench science on these and am wondering if anyone has read anything about vaccine efficacy in relation to antipyretic use. There was a bit of stuff a few years back saying that some(I don’t recall which one/s) pediatric vaccines were a bit less effective if antipyretic were given after vaccination. Is there any science about this with the covid vaccinations?

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I had to look it up. There was a modest decrease in antibody titer when anti-pyretics were given prophylactically in a couple studies, but all titers were still considered above a protective threshold, and titers still increased further upon boosting. There was NO significant difference when antipyretics were given 0-4 hrs after immunization.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5027726

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The timing of administration of antipyretic analgesics appears to be paramount. In all studies that reported a negative effect on antibody response, the medications were given prophylactically. Interestingly, this effect was not seen when acetaminophen was given only four hours after immunization.6 Additionally, all reported decreases in antibody response occurred only with novel antigen vaccination, with little to no impact observed following booster immunizations.

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take 2 and call me in the morning.

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Originally Posted by bennymac

My understanding is that Tylenol or ibuprofen shouldn’t interfere with vaccine effectiveness. Those medications shouldn’t compromise your immune systems response. But I defer to the vaccine/immunology experts in here.

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Here is a meta-review (but not meta-analysis) of the evidence about these meds and vaccines https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5027726/

Basically evidence is limited (particularly for adults), significance isn't clear, and if you wait at least 4 hours after (although the timeframe may be different with mRNA vaccines) then the blunting effect is reduced, and the blunting effect disappears with boosted vaccinations.

I took tylenol. It made me feel normal and I wish I'd only waited 6 hours instead of 24.

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Originally Posted by Summit

I disagree.

The problem has NEVER been lack of demand from overly exclusive criteria.

The problem is the logistics of setting up PODs, staffing them, supplying them, and making sure people know when/how to get there. If you solve that, your rate limiting step will be vaccine supply; you can set whatever criteria you want and still have to turn people away.

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This, mostly. Although I would guess the situation in CA is different and I would agree with Goat's position that CA needs to reduce barrier to just get momentum building.

The announcement from Azar to now priotirize 100M with underlying conditions was a desperate hail mary to save face as Trump devolves. The oneous is still on the states and counties to get the vaccinations out, despite their inability to meet their demand. CO has done a good job so far with their rollout, but Polis is right in staying the course and not jumping to the new recommendations.

Hopefully Biden's team will have a better plan to guide the states with, instead of suddenly instilling false hope into 100M Americans who think they got the golden ticket sooner than expected (and sooner than possible)

I remember them advising against ACE inhibitors for treating the actual virus. Ibuprophen is one, Tylenol is not. So take Tylenol. I was chugging Z-quil when I had the virus.

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Originally Posted by Summit

I disagree.

The problem has NEVER been lack of demand from overly exclusive criteria.

The problem is the logistics of setting up PODs, staffing them, supplying them, and making sure people know when/how to get there. If you solve that, your rate limiting step will be vaccine supply; you can set whatever criteria you want and still have to turn people away.

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That's my point. If logistics are the rate limiting step, simplify the logistics. Mass vaccination sites mean fewer places the vaccine has to be transported to. If you don't prioritize by job you don't have to have people document their jobs, you don't have to direct different messages to different groups. If you don't prioritize by underlying conditions you don't have to identify those people. If you eliminate appointments and make it first come first serve you cut out the need for setting up and managing an appointment system. Yes, people will have to wait for hours and yes it will be unfair but fewer people will die.

HCW's and nursing home patients are the low hanging fruit and we're not getting that done. It's only going to get harder.

Over 150,000,000 people managed to vote and have their votes counted (and recounted and recounted again) in a period of a few weeks. Vaccinating people should be simpler, not more difficult.

Honestly I think a huge issue here is you have the potential distribution channels all overtaxed and there is not a financial carrot to those channels. I'm pretty familiar with the logistics involved and even a large scale very efficient delivery system is still looking at ~30 min of direct labor per dose (not counting overhead or backoffice) of something with $0-$15 of reimbursement if it even makes sense to invest in billing insurance where such business infrastructure exists and patients have insurance.

A federal government offer to healthcare organizations of $20/dose straight up to deliver, and you'll see more enthusiasm to dedicate staff away from all the other things they are needing to get done, whether that is Walmart pharmacy or whether that is a hospital system or a local government agency.

There is also the problem of trying to set up and staff vaccine delivery when the amount of supply is often not known until a day or two before vaccine is delivered. Hopefully things can go more steady state soon...

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Originally Posted by old goat

That's my point. If logistics are the rate limiting step, simplify the logistics. Mass vaccination sites mean fewer places the vaccine has to be transported to. If you don't prioritize by job you don't have to have people document their jobs, you don't have to direct different messages to different groups. If you don't prioritize by underlying conditions you don't have to identify those people. If you eliminate appointments and make it first come first serve you cut out the need for setting up and managing an appointment system. Yes, people will have to wait for hours and yes it will be unfair but fewer people will die.

HCW's and nursing home patients are the low hanging fruit and we're not getting that done. It's only going to get harder.

Over 150,000,000 people managed to vote and have their votes counted (and recounted and recounted again) in a period of a few weeks. Vaccinating people should be simpler, not more difficult.

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Agree. If a tiered system is needed, keep it simple like Age based only.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...dec32c5ac2.jpg


Got Modernized today. Cell signal improved immediately.

Went to the store with strong urge to buy Zune mp3 player but the puzzled clerk didn’t think they had any in stock.

Mofro dropin’ knowledge. Thanks for the link.

California just made 65 and older eligible. yippee. Of course they're still struggling to do HCW's and no one is saying when 65's can actually get vaccinated.
Here's a thought--when someone shows up for a shot worker takes a dated timed pic of their ID, stabs them, sits them down for 15 minutes, gives them a preprinted card with the date to return for shot 2. Later, when the dust has settled, the names and dates can be uploaded into a database if someone thinks it would be useful. The limiting factor would be room for all the people to wait, since the whole vaccination process should take no more than 5 minutes per victim.

Xhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...de97b9db68.jpg

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TOPEKA, Kan. (WIBW) - The Coffey County Health Department is preparing to help distribute the COVID-19 vaccine ahead of the end of this month for Phase 2 of the state’s plan; however, none of their 4 nurses will actually be administering it.

In a call with 13 News Wednesday (Jan. 13), health department administrator Lindsay Payer says that neither she nor her staff “feel comfortable” giving the vaccine. Instead, the county health department will contract with at least one outside nurse to give the vaccine and possibly other providers. They will use COVID funds to cover it. Payer says these are personal decisions made individually and not without considerable thought.

“I will tell you we will have to contract staff outside of our staff to give that vaccine because my staff is not comfortable with that,” Payer told commissioners at their January 4th meeting. “It’s a new technology. We’ve never seen it before. It was only studied in 45 people before it was approved, and the companies that have made the vaccine they don’t have to ... all liability is gone from them. So, if there’s anything bad about the vaccine it doesn’t go back to them.”

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FFS. Yeah, 45.

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Originally Posted by frorider

FFS. Yeah, 45.

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"It was only studied in 45 people before it was approved ..."

Wait, what?

Kansas perpetually has dumb dumbs at the helm. At least they gave us the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Praise be.

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Originally Posted by prsboogie

Wife had her second Pfizer on Monday and felt much better than after the first. Now we are both vaccinated for the Vid!!

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

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Haven't decided yet to take the vaccine this early. Will gladly follow you guys here for any updates regarding your conditions with the vaccine.

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Originally Posted by SkierPanier

Haven't decided yet to take the vaccine this early. Will gladly follow you guys here for any updates regarding your conditions with the vaccine.

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You could follow TGR to help you make a decision--or you could follow science. (There are a few scientists here but you have to figure out who they are. It shouldn't be hard.)

I'm scheduled for second Pfizer shot on the 19th....I've heard from a few of my coworkers that the aftereffects were significantly worse than the first shot, but only lasted ~12 hours......

first shot received two days ago. significant fatigue yesterday and serious tenderness in my entire right arm. i still feel drained this morning but pain of injection site has has gone away almost entirely. definitely felt and affected me differently than any shot i can recall having. scheduled for second round on feb 3.

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Originally Posted by old goat

California just made 65 and older eligible. yippee. Of course they're still struggling to do HCW's and no one is saying when 65's can actually get vaccinated.
Here's a thought--when someone shows up for a shot worker takes a dated timed pic of their ID, stabs them, sits them down for 15 minutes, gives them a preprinted card with the date to return for shot 2. Later, when the dust has settled, the names and dates can be uploaded into a database if someone thinks it would be useful. The limiting factor would be room for all the people to wait, since the whole vaccination process should take no more than 5 minutes per victim.

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We have three rooms, check in, shot and waiting check out. Works well, no lines.


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Heres my vaccine experience FWIW: Pfizer, dose one late December, no pain no problem at all. Second dose last Monday morning. Monday was fine. pretty achy Monday night but mostly slept through it. Tuesday morning woke up feeling like I'd drank a keg a beer and been hit by a train the day before. Wicked body aches, headache, extreme fatigue/malaise. laid around miserable for a few hours, then took a gram of Tylenol, sat in a hot bath, then took a 2 hour nap. woke up feeling maybe 50% better. Tuesday night I slept 11 hours and woke up back at 100%.

has anyone actulay died from taking the Covid vax, nothing i have read indicates I could die ?

people seem worried about the apres effects of the vax

so far the symptoms don't look any worse than the next day after a late night/ hard day of drinking/skiing maybe tagging a tree or a mogul ?

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Originally Posted by XXX-er

has anyone actulay died from taking the Covid vax, nothing i have read indicates I could die ?

people seem worried about the apres effects of the vax

so far the symptoms don't look any worse than the next day after a late night/ hard day of drinking/skiing maybe tagging a tree or a mogul ?

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Given that some people have reportedly had bad allergic reactions (and in the cases I’ve read about these people knew they had a history of bad allergic reactions) - it stands to reason that there is potential for someone to die from getting vaccinated. Would one person dying from an allergic reaction to the vaccine (amongst millions of delivered vaccines) change your approach? Especially if you have not had a history of bad allergic reactions in the past? Most protocols will involve people staying close by for 20-30min post shot. Probably longer if a person reports a history of severe allergies.

Separate from all that - stay tuned to the social media posts coming that will say “my uncle got vaccinated and the next day had a stroke so...” - those events should be reported correctly so smart people can do the math and figure out of there is evidence of serious adverse events - but balance those social media posts with the reminder that people present to hospital / die with strokes/heart attacks/etc every day. Some of them are gonna have those events right after vaccination.

(Again I defer to the vaccination/research experts in here for better info)

I read a medical type piece on the different vacines quoting facts and figures re the effects of each one and nobody died from any of the vaccines, slightly sick/ sore arm for a day was pretty normal and that was about it

Wife just received her first dose of the Moderna vaccine. She reports feeling a little achey, but otherwise seems upbeat - she's been pretty stressed regarding work/friends/community and COVID the past few weeks, so I think receiving the vaccine is actually helping to settle her mind a bit.
But I think it's interferring with our dsl modem - signal when at home for lunch seemed very weak. Nanobots must be picking up on my seditious surfing of TGR.

Spoke with mgmt at work and best guess for it coming through work is perhaps Apr or May. No word yet through my SAR exec if or when there will be anything coming sooner for the volunteer 1st responders. <Le sigh>