To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

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Originally Posted by bodywhomper

Y’all know what community spread is like in your area? Our data (northern CA) is pretty poor these days.

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I really meant more ... community impact... i.e. I live near the hospital.. If I see ambulances stacked up outside and/or know they're having to stop allowing visitors, telling family to wait in the parking lot instead of in waiting rooms that are currently filled with patients.. That's what I think of as high level community spread.

I suspect the only way the epidemiologist can track true community spread some is the sewer samples... home testing, asymptomatic folks.. No other way to really know the % of infected folks other than the % of infected shit and piss..

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Originally Posted by riser4

Ymmv. I was fine with the Pfizer bivalent and seasonal flu given same day, just a little passing odd sensation for a few hours 18 hours later. Your wife might actually have flu or COVID.

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No, she always reacts badly to vaccines.

Got Moderna and the flu shot yesterday - pretty achy and a little fever and a slight headache, not horrible compared to my first 2 shots.


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Originally Posted by teleee

Got Moderna and the flu shot yesterday - pretty achy and a little fever and a slight headache, not horrible compared to my first 2 shots.


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+1. Had a double shot at CVS at 8pm so I could just sleep it off. Mild nausea and other symptoms. Good to go now. Flu shot arm hurts.

Booster+flu last night. Feel pretty shitty today, but it gave me an excuse to take the day off work and watch rampage live, so could be worse. I had covid in May and it took 6 weeks to get over it fully, FTS.

My wife says she's about 60% today after being completely bedridden yesterday.

I'd say 60% at best today. Woke up multiple times last night drenched in sweat and peed a ton, full bladder every hour like clockwork. Lymph node in my left armpit swelled up HUGE overnight and hurts like hell.

Boosted 5th on Wed (incl flu)…headache and sleepy for about 8hrs, then back to normal

I got mine yesterday afternoon and tossed and turned a lot last night, but didn't feel awful overall. I swam this morning and now my arm isn't even sore. I feel just a slight bit queasy, but pretty much back to normal other than that.

Boosted a week or so ago. Good all day but uncontrollable chattering chills in the middle of the night and super sore arm in the morning. Dodged the headache luckily. The chills made me chuckle I was shaking so badly for a bit. Definitely not as bad as shot number 2 went for me by a long shot tho

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Originally Posted by summit

Low dose naltrexone may offer some helped for some long-rona, but I haven't read it deeply

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Read deeply;) We prescribe naltrexone for all sorts of stuff now. Obviously narcotic overdoses, but also alcoholism and some for obesity with particular characteristics.

Hypothesis in terms of long covid may have anti-inflammatory effect among other mechanisms. Is also used in other chronic pain conditions as well as emerging evidence it may be helpful for depression (low dose). No control group in study cited.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...__ffn_sectitle

My mom told me that when she entered the military after getting a battery of shots they all were given a scrub brush for each hand. Then all the girls spent the next few hours scrubbing the floor of the mess hall. I was planning to get vaxed after golf tomorrow but maybe I should get the shot first?

Cdc released updated vaccine effectiveness data yesterday re: hospitalization for the single variant mRNA vax+booster: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7142a3.htm

“Three-dose monovalent mRNA VE estimates against COVID-19–associated hospitalization decreased with time since vaccination. Three-dose VE during the BA.1/BA.2 and BA.4/BA.5 periods was 79% and 60%, respectively, during the initial 120 days after the third dose and decreased to 41% and 29%, respectively, after 120 days from vaccination.”

For those on the board in the know, is the initial effectiveness due to antibody response/prevalence and the loss of effectiveness because the t and B cells weren’t doing their thing?

I guess we’ll be finding out in several months if this bivalent version performs similarly….

There's probably also a statistical contribution. From the discussion portion:

"Although the analysis was stratified by time since last vaccination during each lineage predominance period, the median interval between receipt of the third dose and illness onset during the BA.4/BA.5 period in this analysis was 233 days compared with 145 days during the BA.1/BA.2 period; thus, the BA.4/BA.5 period disproportionately included patients further removed from vaccination, which likely contributed to the lower VE during this period....

The findings in this report are subject to at least four limitations. First, sample size was insufficient to assess VE varying over time for the BA.2 period separately, resulting in use of a combined BA.1/BA.2 group instead, or to demonstrate substantial waning during the BA.4/BA.5 period. Second, because lineage periods were pooled, the unique contributions of immune evasion associated with each lineage to VE could not be ascertained. Third, because previous infection could not be measured, its effect on VE estimates could only be inferred, not quantified. Finally, follow-up time after the fourth dose to assess waning immunity associated with this dose was insufficient."

Stratifying into only two groups necessarily ignores the continued increase in immunity in the unvaccinated members of each group with time outside of that qualitative split. The fact that the mean time between vaccination and disease increased so dramatically is probably owed in part to that. But add that there is still the problem of vaccinations being self-selecting, so there's likely a correlation between vaccinated and at-risk leading to comparatively more hospitalizations due to that higher risk (which existed independent of vaccination). Meaning, in this case, the last booster came sooner (longer ago)--in part because higher risk patients on average probably got them earlier. The onset interval went up by 88 days between the two periods, the first of which was barely over 2x that long. Average age rose, too.

It's just a shame they couldn't get large enough samples to further stratify either of the time intervals used. Hopefully the data on bivalent boosters is larger.

First a couple more answers are needed. One - they are reporting effectiveness against hospitalization. Two - they are comparing effectiveness to the unvaccinated. Most of the unvaccinated have some protection due to prior infection(s) at this time. That means today's VE is measuring something different than the original EUA studies reporting VE in the 90s.

From the CDC link: "Further, infections with earlier Omicron lineages, including BA.1 and BA.2, reduce vaccine effectiveness (VE) estimates because certain persons in the referent unvaccinated group have protection from infection-induced immunity."

IIRC, the booster came out during the delta surge, so some of the apparent loss in VE is due to the unvaccinated gaining immunity via sickness. You got boosted, they got sick. Both gained roughly equivalent immunity.

I suggest that the vaccine performs well. Probably a more interesting question is how three dose performed vs a 2 dose population. Or 4 dose vs 3. Or 5 vs 4. Since the readers of this thread are presumably considering whether to get another shot. (Or laughing at all us fools volunteering for the 5G government mind-control chip). The third dose is supposedly important in developing the longterm immunity. It's less clear to me that further boosters provide as much benefit (though this could be due to me not reading enough Covid studies - I decided the national health agencies are doing their job, and I generally follow their advice)

My take on getting a booster is it ought to cause both a temporary effect via increased antibody protection, and a longer lasting incremental effect due to further development of t and B cells. Several of the experts I follow have decided not to get 2nd or 3rd booster as they feel the evidence isn't strong enough. I think they're being pedantic but that's my opinion.

I'm not one of the real experts, though read a lot and try to synthesize and report accurately

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Originally Posted by bodywhomper

Cdc released updated vaccine effectiveness data yesterday re: hospitalization for the single variant mRNA vax+booster: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7142a3.htm

“Three-dose monovalent mRNA VE estimates against COVID-19–associated hospitalization decreased with time since vaccination. Three-dose VE during the BA.1/BA.2 and BA.4/BA.5 periods was 79% and 60%, respectively, during the initial 120 days after the third dose and decreased to 41% and 29%, respectively, after 120 days from vaccination.”

For those on the board in the know, is the initial effectiveness due to antibody response/prevalence and the loss of effectiveness because the t and B cells weren’t doing their thing?

I guess we’ll be finding out in several months if this bivalent version performs similarly….

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Well, not looking like it's doing as much as we hoped for in terms of preventing initial infection totally..

CDC Director Tests Positive For COVID-19

Still glad I have it onboard..

I don't remember when I got my boost, but it's been a long time. My wife got her second boost a week ago Weds and with the Vid running thru her school (our Gov won't let schools close due to Vid, different story) she was covering classes, like all her peers, for absent staff, she tested positive the previous Friday. I tested positive last Monday. I was slightly shocked at how much it kicked my ass last week. Glad I was vaxxed and boosted.

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Originally Posted by Dantheman

Booster+flu last night. Feel pretty shitty today, but it gave me an excuse to take the day off work and watch rampage live, so could be worse. I had covid in May and it took 6 weeks to get over it fully, FTS.

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I felt the same after the booster+flu combo, for what it's worth...all prior doses (2 pfizer, 1 moderna) I felt nothing. This one, I felt fine that afternoon and started feeling funky before bed. Woke up at 2am feeling crappy and that continued for the next 12 hours or so...not terrible, but just surprised after having no reaction previously. Thought I was special I guess. :)

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Originally Posted by Adolf Allerbush

I felt the same after the booster+flu combo, for what it's worth...all prior doses (2 pfizer, 1 moderna) I felt nothing. This one, I felt fine that afternoon and started feeling funky before bed. Woke up at 2am feeling crappy and that continued for the next 12 hours or so...not terrible, but just surprised after having no reaction previously. Thought I was special I guess. :)

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I wasn't surprised, Pfizer #2 kicked my ass. This lymph node thing is pretty wild though. Still swollen today but down about 25% from yesterday. If I actually had covid and my lymph node swelled up like this I definitely would have gone to a doctor.

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Originally Posted by Dantheman

I wasn't surprised, Pfizer #2 kicked my ass. This lymph node thing is pretty wild though. Still swollen today but down about 25% from yesterday. If I actually had covid and my lymph node swelled up like this I definitely would have gone to a doctor.

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Early on in this the axillary lymphadenopathy was certainly screwing with ultrasound/mammography/PET CT. But now it’s part of the pre-exam info/questions.

Very mild if any reaction to my booster + flu shot. Kinda felt nauseas for a couple days after. That's it.

Still hesitant to say I'm all good because of how yo-yo up and down this PASC seems to be for me. In the past 6ish weeks I have felt really pretty good though.

Anecdotal, but I started taking a daily pill of Nato Serra in September. Some sort of Japanese enzyme that people claim cleans the the blood/cardiovascular system. No way to really know if that's what's actually helping me. I actually JOGGED most of the way up to a summit a couple weekends ago. My chest pain is almost all gone now. I still have this weird lingering cough that is most pronounced the day after a hard MTB ride or when I did that jog. I'm running a charity 5k this Saturday. See how I feel after that. I'm too competitive so I'm gonna run pretty hard probably.

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom_Guardian

Very mild if any reaction to my booster + flu shot. Kinda felt nauseas for a couple days after. That's it.

Still hesitant to say I'm all good because of how yo-yo up and down this PASC seems to be for me. In the past 6ish weeks I have felt really pretty good though.

Anecdotal, but I started taking a daily pill of Nato Serra in September. Some sort of Japanese enzyme that people claim cleans the the blood/cardiovascular system. No way to really know if that's what's actually helping me. I actually JOGGED most of the way up to a summit a couple weekends ago. My chest pain is almost all gone now. I still have this weird lingering cough that is most pronounced the day after a hard MTB ride or when I did that jog. I'm running a charity 5k this Saturday. See how I feel after that. I'm too competitive so I'm gonna run pretty hard probably.

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Natto is fermented soy beans that is super high in Vitamin K2 (mk7). Menaquinone in the simplest of explanations can direct calcium deposition to bones/not arteries. And FWIW (mk4) from cheese/meat is a part of testosterone function/production in Leydig cells of testes.

Glad your having good days. Any further diagnostics? Did any other things seem to help?

I used to buy real natto and eat it with eggs. Not too bad.

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Originally Posted by Trackhead

Matti is fermented soy beans that is super high in Vitamin K2 (mk7). Menaquinone in the simplest of explanations can direct calcium deposition to bones/not arteries. And FWIW (mk4) from cheese/meat is a part of testosterone function/production in Leydig cells of testes.

Glad your having good days. Any further diagnostics? Did any other things seem to help?

I used to buy real natto and eat it with eggs. Not too bad.

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I had heart echo, heart CT with dye in Billings (uh....that was fucking WEIRD when that dye gets shot into you), and various bloodwork. No evidence of any heart disease etc. Cardiologist said if the lung stuff kept bothering me to have my PCP refer me to pulmonary specialist.

Last pulmonologist referral I did they were so backed up from covid. Wonder if they’ve caught up?

Glad your heart is good. Cardiomyopathy would suck. Especially for young athletic guy like yourself. It’s currently killing a friend of mine (post covid heart failure).

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Originally Posted by Dantheman

I wasn't surprised, Pfizer #2 kicked my ass. This lymph node thing is pretty wild though. Still swollen today but down about 25% from yesterday. If I actually had covid and my lymph node swelled up like this I definitely would have gone to a doctor.

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Just had my 3rd booster. Had the same lymph node thing for two days. Weird, reminded me of when I had cat scratch fever when I was a kid. Also felt like crap for exactly 24 hrs. Nice fever too, slept like a baby.

On the heart subject, after I had covid the first time, I had some weird high blood pressure randomly. Wife bought a cuff a while back and I randomly decided to check my BP about a month after I had Covid. It was crazy high, and the weird part was that my diastolic was crazy high too, not just systolic. Never had high BP in my life, and no family history of it. Went to the doc, they almost sent me to the ER. Put me on some drugs for it and got it under control. Now I'm back to normal. BP wise anyway.