To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

I dunno.

Everyone lives different lives. This shit has been going on for a long while. I think for a lot of people Summit nails it. For others probably not. So many variables.

We were among the most cautious for so long. Now, not so much. Who's to say the exact proper path forward. We debate it all the time. Covid weighs but so does raising my kids and giving them experiences.

On another note, we kind of blasted through our supply of home tests here lately, which we stocked up on and bought before the free tests were available. Went online for the free tests and judging from my inbox I have an entire truckload coming since none have come to this address yet.

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Originally Posted by uglymoney

I think for a lot of people Summit nails it. For others probably not. So many variables.

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Yep. The best path forward for Americans is blunder ahead doing what we feel like, hoping that scientists and other leaders will fix any problems before they get too bad. It's worked ok for most problems, so far. Polio is gone. Missile gap, what's that? Peak oil surpassed (anybody holding barrels waiting for $200?). We used to live with smallpox. It'll be ok.

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Originally Posted by LongShortLong

Yep. The best path forward for Americans is blunder ahead doing what we feel like, hoping that scientists and other leaders will fix any problems before they get too bad. It's worked ok for most problems, so far. Polio is gone. Missile gap, what's that? Peak oil surpassed (anybody holding barrels waiting for $200?). We used to live with smallpox. It'll be ok.

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My crystal ball isn't as clear as yours.

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Originally Posted by jono

The literalism with which rounding errors are presented as fact is probably the leading Achilles heel of American medicine.

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Probably 100% :fmicon:

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Originally Posted by uglymoney

…Covid weighs but so does raising my kids and giving them experiences.
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I think it’s not really an either/or scenario in regards to the kids. I believe it is possible to raise kids while maintaining reasonable precautions, and not have their lives ruined. Most kids I know don’t seem to mind wearing masks inside, and did mostly ok with zoom school, and still manage to have friends etc. they’re way better at this than the adults I know, but the kids haven’t been fully brainwashed yet.

And I didn't say it was either or I said weigh it.

Edit....deleted a bunch of shit.

I don't really have a point of view to share here. Mostly that I don't know, am probably wrong anyway, and certainly the ground we have settled on for now is completely reprehensible, unless you think just like me, which is impossible.

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Originally Posted by summit

Probably 100% :fmicon:

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Indubitably

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Originally Posted by uglymoney

And I didn't say it was either or I said weigh it.

Edit....deleted a bunch of shit.

I don't really have a point of view to share here. Mostly that I don't know, am probably wrong anyway, and certainly the ground we have settled on for now is completely reprehensible, unless you think just like me, which is impossible.

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No I know, just discussing one of the many unknowns we have created in this whole mess!!!

We had our company's anniversary party on Friday. 100 people packed into an event space with much drinking and merrymaking. It was the first time we had the company party in 2.5 years.

Today, i have covid. My kid came down with it yesterday and i didnt start feeling symptoms till last night. I wonder how many people will be sick this week....

The possible superspreader work party, makes me think back to the potential for OSHA regs or guidance and employer-provided health insurance. I was told over the weekend by a well informed legal person to not expect anything from OSHA, even though they had a hearing last spring on COVID and the potential for developing guidance. Regarding health insurance, I wonder if the insurance industry will be reacting if their payout costs significantly increase from COVID related illnesses due to employer-sponsored events or employer policies that put staff in harms way....

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Originally Posted by bodywhomper

The possible superspreader work party, makes me think back to the potential for OSHA regs or guidance and employer-provided health insurance. I was told over the weekend by a well informed legal person to not expect anything from OSHA, even though they had a hearing last spring on COVID and the potential for developing guidance. Regarding health insurance, I wonder if the insurance industry will be reacting if their payout costs significantly increase from COVID related illnesses due to employer-sponsored events or employer policies that put staff in harms way....

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I don't think anyone's got a gun to their head demanding they not wear masks in said environments.. But peer pressure is strong.

There's also the pressure to sit in fish bowl conference rooms for 2 hours with 10+ other collogues where none of them are wearing masks.

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Originally Posted by bodywhomper

The possible superspreader work party, makes me think back to the potential for OSHA regs or guidance and employer-provided health insurance. I was told over the weekend by a well informed legal person to not expect anything from OSHA, even though they had a hearing last spring on COVID and the potential for developing guidance. Regarding health insurance, I wonder if the insurance industry will be reacting if their payout costs significantly increase from COVID related illnesses due to employer-sponsored events or employer policies that put staff in harms way....

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Why would OSHA do anything when the SCOTUS will just shoot it down. Because Freedom.

Won’t scotus apply the new standard of whether it’s a “major question.” All I know is that OSHA had a public hearing and several top tier aerosol academics testified.

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Originally Posted by bodywhomper

Won’t scotus apply the new standard of whether it’s a “major question.” All I know is that OSHA had a public hearing and several top tier aerosol academics testified.

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Sorry "COVID" is not mentioned anywhere in The Constitution so suck it libtards!

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Originally Posted by bodywhomper

Won’t scotus apply the new standard of whether it’s a “major question.” All I know is that OSHA had a public hearing and several top tier aerosol academics testified.

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Scotus shot down the vaccine or test mandate already. Why wouldn't they do the same to a mask mandate or any other covid work rules. Or pretty soon any work rules of any kind that weren't enacted directly by Congress.

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Originally Posted by old goat

Scotus shot down the vaccine or test mandate already. Why wouldn't they do the same to a mask mandate or any other covid work rules. Or pretty soon any work rules of any kind that weren't enacted directly by Congress.

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Or even rules enacted directly by Congress.

One of them definitely needs to boof a Choco Taco.

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Originally Posted by old goat

Scotus shot down the vaccine or test mandate already. Why wouldn't they do the same to a mask mandate or any other covid work rules. Or pretty soon any work rules of any kind that weren't enacted directly by Congress.

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Originally Posted by riser4

Or even rules enacted directly by Congress.

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Fair points.

However, scotus is currently not stopping osha or Congress from taking action. They may reverse or gut the action, but in the midst of pandemic with highly transmissible pathogen that could severely affect the economy or quality of life, measures that could severely slow the spread of the virus, even temporarily (due to future scotus override), could slow transmission, save lives, provide reprieve, etc.

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Originally Posted by bodywhomper

Fair points.

However, scotus is currently not stopping osha or Congress from taking action. They may reverse or gut the action, but in the midst of pandemic with highly transmissible pathogen that could severely affect the economy or quality of life, measures that could severely slow the spread of the virus, even temporarily (due to future scotus override), could slow transmission, save lives, provide reprieve, etc.

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They can only fuck us over if someone brings a case before them. If it's not on the docket, they can't cock it.

Yep

Shot number four today. Was shocked at how many people tried to enter the vaccination centre unmasked lol.

Well this is just grand, going to bed feeling A ok. First dose was AZ which gave me strong hangover like feelings for 48 hours. Really intense, not fun at all. Second dose was Pfizer, knocked me on my ass. Booster was Pfizer, knocked me on my ass again but not as bad.

Booster #2 today, expected the worst, but going to bed fine.
Massive relief.

report on The Hill by Peter Sullivan states the Govrmnt will purchase 66M doses of Moderna modified vaccine targeting variant BA.5 and BA.4 ;
this is in addition to 110M doses of Pfizer's modified vaccine, both targeting Fall(2022) availability ;

https://thehill.com/policy/healthcar...fall-campaign/


it is my understanding Moderna does not yet have FDA approval, but that can be expected for 66M doses of vaccine...

I don't know that it will receive approval by the September first date discussed up-thread, but October seems very likely --

I'll be there - I expect.

The wheel keeps turning...

skiJ

September is what we're hoping for and why we skipped booster #2 earlier this summer. Getting that and the latest flu shot as soon as they hit the streets so we're good for the winter. That's also when I plan to return to working a couple days a week in the office.. Still not sure about sitting in a fish bowl conference room with 10 other people all unmasked for hours though. Wife had to do that all week long at her job, the VP was in town and pulled her in to tons of meetings in their conference rooms. Now she's got a headache and a sore throat ... again, just like last weekend. Tested twice 3 days apart.. negative. Not much confidence in these tests.. maybe they can also tweak the rapid tests to detect O better.

NYT-British regulators on Monday approved the country’s first Covid-19 booster vaccine to target two coronavirus variants, the original virus and the Omicron varian
Half of each dose of the vaccine, or 25 micrograms, will target the original variant, and the other half will target Omicron. In clinical trials, the vaccine, an updated version of Moderna’s original Covid vaccine, generated a good immune response to these two variants, as well as the BA.4 and BA.5 subvariants in adults, researchers found

5G+? Sign me up!


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What's the over under on old polio vaccinations?

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Originally Posted by SumJongGuy

September is what we're hoping for and why we skipped booster #2 earlier this summer. Getting that and the latest flu shot as soon as they hit the streets so we're good for the winter. That's also when I plan to return to working a couple days a week in the office.. Still not sure about sitting in a fish bowl conference room with 10 other people all unmasked for hours though. Wife had to do that all week long at her job, the VP was in town and pulled her in to tons of meetings in their conference rooms. Now she's got a headache and a sore throat ... again, just like last weekend. Tested twice 3 days apart.. negative. Not much confidence in these tests.. maybe they can also tweak the rapid tests to detect O better.

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Got booster #2 AND want to get the new fall booster. Sign me up.

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Originally Posted by SumJongGuy

What's the over under on old polio vaccinations?

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According to the CDC duration of protection is unknown. People at high risk--whatever that means--"can" get a booster.

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Originally Posted by old goat

According to the CDC duration of protection is unknown. People at high risk--whatever that means--"can" get a booster.

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I remember being told the same thing about small pox a couple years ago. I was between jobs and looking as a substitute teacher gig. Small Pox update was required to do that. Fortunately I found something else before it came to that..

But, ya I guess high risk will be community spread based ... watching that around NYC right now...

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Originally Posted by SumJongGuy

I remember being told the same thing about small pox a couple years ago. I was between jobs and looking as a substitute teacher gig. Small Pox update was required to do that. Fortunately I found something else before it came to that..

But, ya I guess high risk will be community spread based ... watching that around NYC right now...

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Huh? A couple of years ago? Smallpox vaccine isn't even available in the US, and hasn't been for a long time. (There are stores of vaccine just in case the Russkies attack.) Where was this job?

( I would bet they were 'requiring' substitute teachers to be vaccinated for Influenza )

Local high school district just released their covid policy for the school year (subject to change). Everything is optional (recommendations) for students, from mask wearing, to isolation, to testing, to vaccination. Sick kids can come to school unmasked. Outbreaks are defined by the number of teachers that are out.

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Originally Posted by SumJongGuy

I remember being told the same thing about small pox a couple years ago. I was between jobs and looking as a substitute teacher gig. Small Pox update was required to do that. Fortunately I found something else before it came to that..

But, ya I guess high risk will be community spread based ... watching that around NYC right now...

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Originally Posted by old goat

Huh? A couple of years ago? Smallpox vaccine isn't even available in the US, and hasn't been for a long time. (There are stores of vaccine just in case the Russkies attack.) Where was this job?

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SumJongGuy is full of shit.

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Originally Posted by SumJongGuy

What's the over under on old polio vaccinations?

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OPV, if you can find it, should give some protection against Covid for a few months, according to some papers I saw a couple years ago. Don't think IPV works the same, so you'll need to travel. Maybe Pakistan still uses it. Ah... there's another catch, I think it needs to be serotype #2. Being hard to find is also why it works - b/c your immune system has never seen it.

Dunno if vaccinia (old smallpox vaccine) works the same, it might if you're under 50.

eta: OPV as in oral, sometimes served in a cookie. I worked on a cookie coincidentally with the same name, so I know more about polio vax than I should.

For those who don't know what LSL is talking about (like me until I googled it) live weakened virus oral polio vaccine seems to reduce the risk of getting covid by acting as a nonspecific immunity enhancer. Perhaps other iive virus vaccines (MMR, chickenpox) would work too? The study only followed people for 3 months. https://www.frontiersin.org/articles...22.907341/full
I don't know if there were other studies of the issue; I didn't look that hard.
The interesting thing about the study, which was published this year, is that there is no comment on whether the subjects had received a covid vaccine. The study was done in Russia.
The authors suggest that live virus vaccines might be a useful way to control a pandemic temporarily in the early stage, before a vaccine is available.
Oral polio vaccine isn't available in the US because the weakened virus rarely mutates into a dangerous form. It is used in places where polio is still endemic because it is better at controlling the spread of the virus between people than the injected vaccine.

Thanks I should have said more. The study is pretty obscure. Apparently there was a Russian virologist decades ago (1960s?) who proposed the idea and also did some research. Sounded like it never became official policy.

I think SJG was asking a different question, but I wanted to yap.

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Originally Posted by LongShortLong

I think SJG was asking a different question, but I wanted to yap.

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Your response was super enlightening.

As for my question.. General vent about the new polio cases in NYC and if there's any chance of it becoming a "thing" elsewhere or not..

The off-target effects are not specific to OPV per se, but a general trend in vaccines that are live or live attenuated, causing a stimulation of the first line of infection defense aka innate immunity (non-memory mediated). While that article was about OPV, similar studies have shown general infection reduction following measles, tuberculosis, and yes smallpox vaccines.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/03/h...pgtype=Article

https://www.cell.com/cell-reports-me...791(22)00271-3

The TB vaccine (BCG) is a live bacterium that's missing a few key virulence factors. Interestingly for TB protection, it tends to work well in children but wanes in adolesence, and at that point BCG does not work as a "booster" to prevent TB in adults. It has also been used for years to treat bladder cancer because of it's ability to stimulate the innate immune system to overcome immune supression of the tumor environment.

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Originally Posted by SumJongGuy

Your response was super enlightening.

As for my question.. General vent about the new polio cases in NYC and if there's any chance of it becoming a "thing" elsewhere or not..

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One reason the duration of protection from childhood polio vaccine is unknown is that there has been no case of polio acquired in the US in over 40 years. I assume similar statistics apply in other countries that have very high rates of full vaccination. With the virus apparently circulating in NY--despite no new clinical cases other than the case of the unvaccinated person who acquired the infection overseas--we may get to find out if protection wanes.

Of course if a vaccinated person gets polio it may be because the person is severely immunocompromised, not because the vaccination was too long before.