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Yeah, maybe more effective than it was on earlier strains or cheap alternative to paxlovid? I don't think it's quite an either/or on usage of the pathways but maybe less reliance on, so alternatively hcq might just force the virus to use ace2/tmprss more instead of the endocytic pathway.Quote:
Originally Posted by LongShortLong
Might that make a vaccine work better?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mofro261
Wouldn't a phenomenon of a large number of people seeming to exhibit symptoms for an ailment they heard of and believe they were predisposition to have be a form of mass hysteria more than psychosomatic? Might we expand the definition of mass hysteria to include longer term symptoms if most of these people really aren't sick at all??
So how do you tell the difference between long covid and vaccine injuries?
The 3 dose vaccine works great at reducing hospitalization and death metrics, drugs are now effective at further curbing those numbers. Because those drugs exist, hcq would be needed to looked at in addition to those therapies to see further improvement. Mostly its the prevention of infection metrics that are diminished vs current strains with vaccines.Quote:
Originally Posted by jono
But in order for HCQ make the vax more effective for prevention of infection, one would have to munch on HCQ prophylactically all the time to see the benefit. If I was so concerned as to prevent any infection from even occuring (say immunocomp) then seems healthier at that point to just keep an n95 on instead? ;)
Strongly agree. But I do wanna root for something ironic before it's all over, so LSL's scenario sounds awesome.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mofro261
A good example of wrongly attributing symptoms to the mind would be PTSD, which in some cases is likely due to brain injury. That is not to say PTSD doesn't exist, only that in people exposed to head injury--ie veterans--head injury has to be considered. Also PTSD as a result of serious emotional trauma highlights the potential seriousness of psychosomatic conditions--just because someone's symptoms are determined to be likely due to emotional factors doesn't mean the condition shouldn't be taken seriously. Or look at the fact that chronic emotional stress elevated glucocorticoid steroid levels, which has significant physical consequences. Or that psychological interventions are effective in reducing chronic pain due to proven physical causes. It's complicated.
Rather than deciding that long covid is mass hysteria maybe we should keep studying the condition, keep looking for biochemical causes, keep an open mind, and hold off on making any decisions about it for now. One of my maxims is--make no decision before its time.
You get the information on whether they had a confirmed infection, include vaccination status and run the numbers in the 4 possible categories.Quote:
Originally Posted by leroy jenkins
Infected not vaxxed
Infected then vaxxed
Vaxxed never infected
Vaxxed then infected.
And look for which groups skew to expressing symptoms of long covid and for how long after either infection or vaccination they persist. Then when you find them in infected but absent in the vaxxed but never infected, dimminished in the vaxxed then infected, and see them resolve in a portion of those infected then vaxxed after the reveiving vaccination, you can establish pretty accurate baselines for vaccine related or infection related long covid symptoms.
I mean thats going to give you some meta level idea of the prevalence of some things, but in terms of an individual, case by case basis, is there any way to tell?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mofro261
Theres also just a lot of ways that data is going to be muddied. Lack of symptoms supposedly means you're more likely to get long covid, although I'm not sure how they even gather data on asymptomatic infections that aren't reported.
PTSD isn't psychosomatic. Not even a tiny bit. That emotional trauma causes real physical changes that can be clearly seen in a catscan. Before the long term effects are visible in the brain, they are caused by huge amounts of chemicals released into the body. Like being in fight or flight mode constantly for a long period of time, creates chemical changes which have effects. Its not psychosomatic. I mean you're basically saying the same thing I am, but that doesn't make PTSD psychosomatic, and it doesn't make PTSD that isn't from brain trauma psychosomatic. People don't imagine themselves as traumatized then become that way. Thats Munchausen not PTSD>Quote:
Originally Posted by old goat
This is one of those things if you go with the dictionary definition of a medical term it doesn't work so well. I just had to regoogle the definition of the word to make sure I'm not talking out of my ass. Websters definition is bodily problems caused by the mind which is way too simple. The clinical and medical definiitions for psychosomatic are like, social factors and your thoughts creating bodily problems, not long term truama changing your brain chemistry because you were afraid.
There are studies demonstrating reduced long covid symptoms in those who were vaccinated then infected vs those who were unvaccinated then infected. The first study looks at exactly what Mofro mentions:Quote:
Originally Posted by leroy jenkins
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1....05.22268800v2
Vaccination with at least two doses of COVID-19 vaccine was associated with a substantial decrease in reporting the most common post-acute COVID-19 symptoms, bringing it back to baseline. Our results suggest that, in addition to reducing the risk of acute illness, COVID-19 vaccination may have a protective effect against long COVID.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...460-6/fulltext
Vaccination (compared with no vaccination) was associated with reduced odds of ... long-duration (≥28 days) symptoms following the second dose. Almost all symptoms were reported less frequently in infected vaccinated individuals than in infected unvaccinated individuals
NIH reviewed 6 studies and came to the same conclusions that vaccination reduces Long COVID risk
https://ukhsa.koha-ptfs.co.uk/cgi-bi...5ad4f72ae0dfff
I first hear of PTSD in the 1990s applied to veterans who experience the trauma of war -Quote:
Originally Posted by old goat
so I have always been cautious about claims of PTSD that don't involve combat --
to me, 'emotional trauma' doesn't meet the criteria.
in drafting this message, I recognize there are circumstances that are highly traumatic - that may be as traumatic to the victim of long-term abuse, as combat is to a soldier.
But I will be cautious about accepting self-reporting of PTSD as a long-term effect of COVID ( unless the patient has been on a ventilator or more ).
the other recent comment ( Thank you, goat ) that I appreciate is we may not need to be in a rush to Explain long covid / post covid with psychosomatic or (mass) hysteria - just keep an open mind and see where these cases go
( similarly, the idea of long-term infectious processes is something I have some experience with ).
I think I am becoming aware of Thead's approach --
The Good news is WrG feels his symptoms are improving !
That will be Good, WrG !
This thread is on an interesting tanget -
I appreciate the discussion.
Thank you. skiJ
Excellent post. Thank you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Summit
The DSM disagrees with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by skiJ
No one said getting PTSD from getting COVID. It was used as an example of psychosomatic. You absolutly can get it from emotional truama, especially at a young age, and PTSD is never psychosomatic. They used the word psychosomatic wrong.
You can see PTSD in a catscan. You never heard of it before the 90s? How does emotional truma not meet the diagnostic criteria? Its part of the diagnostic criteria.
I could give you PTSD without combat for sure. I'm honestly flabbergasted you think it only applies to combat vets and doubt it even exists for anyone else. Again, every version of the DSM disagrees with you. You think you'd turn out fine if I slapped you around every day from birth to 4 years old? Agin, you can see it in a catscan, its not psychosomatic, and its existence in non combat vets is absolutely proven.
Mostly I just look for discussion and not argument but honestly you spreading shit like this does no favors to furthering mental health. Is your fundamentally invalidating opinion grounded in anything at all? I mean you never even heard of it before the fucking 90s so it seems like nothing but ignorance. By the 90s kindergarten teachers were already getting trained on how to spot symptoms in kids.
I don't really understand the desire to disbelieve in something so proven, especially when doing so is fundamentally invalidating to people who have been thrugh shit you can't imagine. I thought we 'trust the science' around here?
I'm sure you've given it to many of those who've read your posts.Quote:
Originally Posted by leroy jenkins
Thanks for the reply.Quote:
Originally Posted by Summit
So on a meta level, there are some ways to parse the data, but on an individual level, is there any way to tell at all?
Ooh burrn I'll have a cry now. you fossil.Quote:
Originally Posted by ötzi
Aren't you dead already? How old are you like 90 don't you have carpal tunell from you like 30k posts here? Is that why you started a new acount, your post count made you ashamed at wasting your life?
What a maroon.
I identify as a macaroon.Quote:
Originally Posted by ötzi
Is that all you got? Is it dementia limiting you from coming up with something better you crusty old fuck?
haha. you go, son.
Ok so yea dementia.Quote:
Originally Posted by ötzi
hopefully soon it sets in to where you can't use a computer and just drool all day.
Seriously though, how old ARE you? I remember seeing a picture of you here in my youth like 2 decades ago and you looked like a decrepit old fossil then. Seriously I'd like to know.
you cited it yourself this morning, leroy -Quote:
Originally Posted by bodywhomper
14% claim PTSD as a result of covid.
in my post, I also acknowledge the trauma of long-term abuse may be as traumatic as combat to a soldier.
I used to hear about soldiers being "shell shocked" - symptoms I equate with PTSD.
I believe my uncle died at forty-six of the trauma he experienced in wwii...
I consider your comment to try to cause me
another episode of PTSD a threat - consistent with the class you show in your posts ;
I will try to be Clear -
Stay Away from me.
Thank you. tj
postscript.
PTSD was included in DSM3 in 1980 ;
PTSD was included in ICD in 1992 ;
in 2013, PTSD was reclassified in DSM, because '60% of diagnosis did not involve traumatic death. '
leroy cites physical trauma to a newborn child - which may produce similar changes in 'brain chemistry' potentially similar to soldiers who experience brain injury.
I will try to be Very Clear -
physical trauma to a newborn child will cause a Brain Injury, it does not cause Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.
goodbye, leroy -
Stay Away from me.
Wlecome.Quote:
Originally Posted by leroy jenkins
The way you are asking your question presupposes that there even is a Long COVID like effect from the vaccine that would have to be sorted out. That signal is not present in the data. Nobody has demonstrated any evidence that this occurs at all or in general. Instead the evidence is that the vaccine reduces Long COVID risk. Thus there is nothing to tell in terms of your question as it is asking to differentiate something case-by-case that isn't differentiable because it is not demonstrated to exist. This post is intentionally reiterative.
No threat. I'm a peace loving person who wishes the best on others, and feels no desire or temptation to see others come to harm. I don't even experience schadenfreude, but I understand the mechanisms that could cause PTSD, and I understand that under the right circumstances almost anyone could develop it.Quote:
Originally Posted by skiJ
I'm asking you though, where do your opinions come from? Because they are just opinions. The DSM disagrees with you. Why hold opinions that are invalidating to others truama?
And yes, emotional truama, especially at a young age for a long period of time, without brain injury, absolutely can cause PTSD, which is proven in catscans. Not may, does. You should look up catscans of people with PTSD vs a neurotypical brain. If fear is the first thing you learn of the universe it will absolutly affect your developement. This is actually called COMPLEX PTSD.
But you just don't believe in it, because why? I'm really curious, why disbelieve in it, instead of just have the attitude that you don't know and haven't experienced it? Why take the fundamentally invalidating stigmatizing view and proselytize it?
You know not all combat vets who get PTSD have any sort of physical injury right? And I didn't cite people with covid saying they have PTSD. Honestly that is a stretch of the criteria. Someone talked about PTSD being psychosomatic and it is not.
Again, no threat, no ill wishes, but cannot understand why people want to disbelieve in it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by leroy jenkins
post preservation. tj
- - -
goat cited PTSD. in soldiers --
I believe goat has experience with "psychosomatic" conditions that few in this thread ,,, even appreciate.
I looked-up the definition of 'psychosomatic' because I Am uncomfortable with the way it is being used - But
'psychosomatic' includes conditions made worse by (cognitive / psychologic / thinking ) factors.
( leroy ) is finding offense where there is none.
PTSD may be controversial - Because in 2013, 60% of professional diagnosis did not fit the Professional Reference ( DSM- IV. "traumatic death" hence My associating it with soldiers in combat. )
kindergarten teachers are not assessing kindergarten students for PTSD ; they are assessing children for brain trauma.
I'm pretty careful with my opinions around here -
I review References, and regarding covid, I have read or reviewed a lot of the citations.
my earlier post this evening specifically acknowledged the potential for abuse to create a 'traumatic stress disorder' - specifically acknowledged it --
the rest of (leroy's) subsequent post ,,, is largely incorrect supposition
( I am reasonably confident the diagnosis of PTSD does not require a specific CATSCAN finding.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/N...799a22cbcf6537
and
who's to say whether a soldier did or did not experience physical trauma (?) remember "shell shocked" )
www.ptsd.va.gov
finally, I will echo Summit's comment, that (leroy's) attempt to project symptoms of long-covid / post-covid with vaccination directly conflicts with the studies that consistently show the benefits of vaccination, including in studies of long-covid.
Thank you. and
I apologize for the thread drift.
please get your booster. tj
What like I'm going to delete it?Quote:
Originally Posted by skiJ
Ok, keep on going around stigmatizing and invalidating people with CPTSD without any reason that you can state. I guess you get something out of that. Turn a complete hypothetical into a 'threat' if you really want to, but dont' answer my question. Have a great day. I'm honestly glad you're sheltered enough to actually believe PTSD doesn't exist separate from traumatic brain injury. Again, I find causing harm to others to be very unfulfilling and avoid it at all costs, and wish you the best. Really curious to hear an actual answer as to why you hold these views or spout them but yea I guess you don't have one. God bless.
I can see why you would think this and it would seem reasonable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Summit
There are long covid like symptoms in the pages of vax side effects released by pfizer and moderna though, and I do believe there have been some issues with data collecting and reporting. The CDC admitted to manipulating the data to quell dissent. Even if that was different data than those studies rely on, with the long covid like symptoms reported by the companies making the vax, it seems like an attitude of entertaining the possibility of vax injuries being real would not be a bad thing, no? And also that developing some sort of way to tell the difference on an individual basis would be highly valuable, for all of us except the pharma companies.
Still searching for a bogeyman bro?Quote:
Originally Posted by leroy jenkins
Pretty sure a tourniquet will cure covid and long covid complications right leroy??
Quote:
Originally Posted by leroy jenkins
see above. skiJ
J.C. nobody has suggested PTSD exists only with Traumatic Brain Injury. and now,
You need to claim the discussion ///
never mind, leroy. ... tj
Show me where it says on the Moderna, Pfizer, or CDC websites that the "long covid like" symptoms after vaccination can be persistent. Obviously if someone has had the vaccine and covid in short order one could claim the persistent symptoms were due to the vaccine and not the covid and it would be hard to prove otherwise; therefore one has to go by the data on people who have not had covid--the data in the trials and in post release surveillance (not VERS, which has been manipulated by the anti vaxers). With the exception of the myocarditis and pericarditis with the mRNA's and the blood clots with J and J the side effects listed are common with all vaccines and the myocarditis and pericarditis also seem to be self limited.Quote:
Originally Posted by leroy jenkins
So if you've got some evidence of persistent post vaccine symptoms in people who did not have covid, show it.
We seem to be miscommunicating. i am unsure the point of many of the things you are saying and you seem to unintentionally misconstrue many things i say.Quote:
Originally Posted by skiJ
For one, I never said catscans are needed to diagnose PTSD. I said PTSD can be shown in a catscan and its existence is proven.
Again, the dictionary definition for clinical or medical terms is often inadequate. The clincial defintion varies from webster's as I detailed in my first reply to you.
PTSD exists, and is not psychosomatic, and does not need to come from anything life threatening. If you're 2 years old you don't even know what is life threatening. If you admit abuse can create a traumatic stress disorder, are you asserting it can only create Acute Stress Disorder? By definition, anything long lasting in effects, or caused by long lasting continual trauma is POST TRAUMATIC Stress Disorder, or Complex PTSD, although that hasn't been accepted in the DSM yet, it will probably be in the next one. You also did say you don't think emotional trauma meets the current criteria. Emotional trauma includes fear. Just because its not fear for your life doesn't mean it can't cause PTSD. Fear of rape for instance.
Is any of that really anything you can disagree with? Are we just on different wavelengths here?
You just described it in your own post. With the exception of...Quote:
Originally Posted by old goat
Quote:
Originally Posted by leroy jenkins
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/N...799a22cbcf6537
Uh yea.Quote:
Originally Posted by skiJ
I already said this. You can see ptsd in a catscan. That doesn't make it part of the diagnostic criteria.
The key peice of data in getting psylocibin mushrooms legalized for clinical use in not terminally ill patients was their ability to permanently alter PTSD brain chemistry back to healthy, as evidenced in catscans. This was something no drug or treatment has ever been able to replicate especially in as short a time span.
You can see PTSD in a catscan. Its a real thing.
Still not sure exactly what you're disagreeing with, now it seems like perhaps we're speaking different languages as I have already clarified this.
Do you even know what the word "long" means in the context of "long covid" Mr. Macaroon? Or maybe its no longer Mr. And "identify with" means mean that's your pronoun now.Quote:
Originally Posted by leroy jenkins
Greater than 2 months post infection, more than 2 months post vaccination. None of the "excepts" for rare adverse events post vaccination happen after 6-8weeks. Not long covid symptoms.
I'm still playing nice at this point because I've met you IRL and aware of your ptsd. But you go on and show us on the doll where the vaccine hurt you.
No I did not. You are clearly out of your depth. I cannot take you seriously if you just spout what you think you heard or read. There is a difference between having fatigue for a day or two after a shot and having it for 6 months after covid.Quote:
Originally Posted by leroy jenkins
As far as PTSD-- yes, there are subtle changes in brain imagining. There are physical changes in the brain with every experience you have, have memory you store, traumatic, joyous, or blah. As I alluded to before, the distinction between the physical and the mental is a lot fuzzier than most people think. So PTSD after say watching your whole family be murdered and the temporary emotional distress of being stood up on a date are not as qualitatively different as you might think. They both involve physical changes in the brain--more or less subtle.
The PTSD changes in the brain that show up in a catscan are not subtle at all. They're different than schizophrenia, different parts of the brain are overactive vs underactive, but just as not subtle, at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by old goat
a CT scan is a static set of images (like a bunch of photographs of slices of the tissue) - what exactly are you describing when you say different parts are overactive vs underactive? You can't see "activity" on a garden variety CT scan of the brain no more that you can see activity in a knee joint in a standard xray image.
And can you tell us how often CT scans of the brain (garden variety or otherwise) are used to diagnose conditions like PTSD and schizophrenia?
It's actually Dr Macaroon. I'm not a doctor, but Dr is my pronoun, at least in covid threads.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mofro261
Yea, the timeline thing makes some sense, but isn't there still some overlap? if you get vaxxed and infected, in whatever order, within a few weeks of each other, then its going to be hard to tell? I mean I guess the label of what caused it doesn't effect treatment, but it should affect our societal approach to it.
You interpret my posts as doubting the vax being entirely safe, which is correct, but keep in mind the things I am saying also invalidate people with long covid who blame it on the vax, or people who blame other people's long covid on the vax. There are those who think long covid doesn't exist. I'm more trying to understand how we can tell the difference more than arguing one side entirely. A lot of my own skepticism comes from how things are being handled from a legal perspective and not even just a medical. Like you can't sue the vax companies for damages because you took it voluntarily. I don't get why thats the case? Especially if its mandated, sure you can quit the job thats forcing you and you aren't 'forced' any more, but its still coercion, and if data has been withheld then it seems like both the informed and consent part are kind of gray areas. When these companies have made such huge sums of money, and taxpayer money off this, then I feel like perhaps we as a society should be handling it slightly different, even if adverse affects are rare they can be quite serious, and it seems like it'd be good to have more of a reasonable dialouge about that. I also open my big mouth so people will tell my things I don't know and I can learn which I admit is a little alien to many.
We've met? Fuck man I don't remember, where/when was that? My bad.
I don't want to be a macaroon any more. I've decided I'm Dr Eclair.
That reminds me, I worked at a national park years ago and there were a few Chinese visa workers. they all chose american names to make things simpler, each of them chose like an actual name, except this one dude, he'd stick out his hand, look you in the eye, and say, "My name is Danish"