Who came up with placebo = vaccine MMR or meningitis?
Placebo: Normal saline (0.9% sodium chloride solution for injection)
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Who came up with placebo = vaccine MMR or meningitis?
Placebo: Normal saline (0.9% sodium chloride solution for injection)
Astra Z's covid placebo was a meningitis vax.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mofro261
This is for ethical reasons (it is WHO recommended) and also to ensure that the subject is not aware of what injection they got.
Cause saline don't cause typical vax symptoms, thus subject post-vax behavior won't be correlated with their vax experience.
It makes it as blind as possible.
Don't know what Pfizer used.
PG arguing with mofro about this stuff is beyond comical.
just told you what both Pfizer and Moderna used for placebo.
But AZ also used the same, saline.- https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04516746
OK. I stand corrected.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mofro261
edit. My bad, That was for the University of Oxford covid vaccine study.
So what is with the use of meningitis vaccine as placebo in this study?
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...466-1/fulltext
"Participants were randomly assigned to receive either the ChAdOx1 nCoV-19 vaccine or the quadrivalent MenACWY protein-polysaccharide conjugate vaccine. MenACWY was used as a comparator vaccine rather than a saline placebo to maintain masking of participants who had local or systemic reactions. Participants aged 18–55 years were randomly assigned (1:1) in the low-dose cohort and (5:1) in the standard-dose cohort to receive either ChAdOx1 nCoV-19 or MenACWY. For both 18–55 years cohorts, participants were given two doses of study vaccine. Participants aged 56–69 years were randomly assigned (3:1:3:1) to one dose of ChAdOx1 nCoV-19, one dose of MenACWY, two doses of ChAdOx1 nCoV-19, or two doses of MenACWY. Participants aged 70 years or older were randomly assigned (5:1:5:1) to one dose of ChAdOx1 nCoV-19, one dose of MenACWY, two doses of ChAdOx1 nCoV-19, or two doses of MenACWY."
"It has been reported as the only frontrunner for a COVID-19 vaccine that is not using a true placebo as a control. The World Health Organization’s expert panel on placebos used in vaccine trials does underscore the validity of using a different vaccine as a control (one whose safety is well characterized), but notes that it “may also be less acceptable to regulators or public health authorities and potentially delay approval or adoption of a new vaccine.”"
Why wouldn't the other trials also use a real vaccine as placebo?
What immune response does the real covid vax create that explains the difference in adverse reactions vs meningitis vax?
PS - Coincidentally, as per the RESULTS section:
(1) taking a Tylenol during vaccination doesn't seem to have any benefit for reducing pain and swelling.
(2) there is clearly more itch, pain and tenderness with the covid vaccine vs the meningitis vax.
(3) a lot more other post vax adverse reactions with the covid vs meningitis vax.
Attachment 351876
From a layman's perspective it seems like using anything other than something completely inert as a placebo would run the risk of affecting the study.
I know, right ?Quote:
Originally Posted by PNWbrit
mofro brings a bazooka to a knife fight.
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I hope he responds to my last post. I'm really curious on what his take it for the different reactions and why the others didn't do it like U of Oxford.Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry
I'm not knifing anyone.
You bring a teaspoon to the knife fight.
You don’t read any links that are posted but expect a free immunology and epidemiology degree handed to you in bite sized pieces.Quote:
Originally Posted by puregravity
Read more. Think more. Listen more. Post less.
You know China is watching us flounder with Covid and thinking, Yeah, this is how you defeat those American fuckers. Our system can control the spread, theirs can't. Just make it 10X more deadly and the US is toast.Quote:
Originally Posted by old goat
And we would deserve it.Quote:
Originally Posted by yeahman
I got the Pfizer vaccine in the trial. Sore arm after both injections, the only negative side effect. Positive antibody test three weeks after second injection.
One good side effect - I can type faster now that i have 11 fingers.
How’s your 5G signal strength?
Can you post a pic where the new finger grew? I'm hoping it's to the outside of a thumb.
Lucky you. Thanks for your service. I signed up for the Pfizer trail at U of Iowa but never heard back after I returned the qualifying survey. Guesssing either my semi frequent weekend (let down) migraines or they already had enough middle aged white dudes. Really wish I'd have gotten in. For selfish reasons.
COVID-19 vaccines have expected side-effects, but experts say they're no cause for concernQuote:
After the first shot, Choi felt fine, and had no idea whether she’d received the placebo or the vaccine. Her second shot, administered the following month, was a different story.
The injection site was much more painful than when she received the first shot, and by the end of the day, she “felt light-headed, chilled, nauseous, and had a splitting headache.”
She fell asleep, but then woke up at midnight, feeling even worse. She was feverish and could barely lift her arm, according to her description on JAMA.
At 5:30 a.m., she woke once again and took her temperature, finding it was a scorching 40.5 degrees Celsius.
“When I saw that I had a high fever, that's the highest fever I can ever remember having,” Choi told CTV News, “I think my initial, just gut reaction was, ‘Do I have COVID somehow?’”
She reported her reaction to the researchers at 9 a.m. when the office opened, and was told that “a lot of people have reactions after the second injection,” and that she should keep monitoring her symptoms.
...
In the case of the Pfizer vaccine, those older than 56 years of age experienced milder side-effects than the younger cohort of 18 to 55 years.
https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/corona...cern-1.5222927
The generation most likely to share and post on social media about their experience are the ones most affected by vax fever.
"the highest fever I can ever remember having"
All this voluntary systemic inflammation must be good for people!
Any headline with "but experts say" in it is probably reason for concern.
Meanwhile on the east coast, The New York Times feels this is the best headline they can do to instill confidence:
"The new vaccines will probably prevent you from getting sick with Covid. No one knows yet whether they will keep you from spreading the virus to others — but that information is coming."
Will probably
probably.
Who needs animal testing? There are plenty of people who want to be injected right now, no matter the consequences. They are our test animals.Quote:
Originally Posted by mtuhockey33
Brings new meaning to the word "sheeple"
Norman Shumway, the pioneering cardiac surgeon at Stanford would be asked why his department never produced any animal studies of new heart operations. "Why use animals. I have veterans [at the VA]." (I don't approve).Quote:
Originally Posted by This End Up
I heard it made your penis bigger. Finally a cure for smallcox.
I can't wait until there are regulations in place as there are with dog and rabies vaccinations. You want to cross the border, show proof of vaccination or fuck off.
A 5G chip implanted in all the sheeple would solve this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaver
I like how Pure Gravity tries to converse with Mofro like they are peers.
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Is it too obvious?:eek: :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Harry
That makes two of us. I'm going to implement that rule in daily life too. You want to get together for a hike, bbq, whatever? Let's see proof you've had both rounds of the vax first, otherwise, tough luck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaver
Thalidomide was pronounced safe too. No issues there.
Daughter's opinion stems from the fact that as far as young persons go, the impact of covid is negligible. On older persons with a shorter life span, the risks of the injection may outweigh the covid risks.
Never underestimate a bottom dwelling sponge with a wooden spoon.Quote:
Originally Posted by neufox47
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xi8FAIcJA7w
Irony? It’s all you do, talk down
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It isn't the size of the spoon that matters. It is what you stir with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by PNWbrit
SpongeBob is quite good with spoons.
Squidward then devises another plan, where SpongeBob and Patrick distract the worm while he retrieves the mattress. The worm becomes obedient to SpongeBob when he sees the wooden spoon he is holding up. SpongeBob unintentionally throws it towards Squidward for the worm to fetch, and Squidward is subsequently attacked by the worm once again.
while I fully agree with this, it seems as if those “sheeple” are going to cause everyone else to have “vaccination-proof” to travel, get a job, go to a concert (Ticketmaster is already trying to have a proof of Covid vaccination before you can buy/go to concerts), etc...Quote:
Originally Posted by This End Up
I understand the need/want for high risk/elderly people to get the vaccine - if it’s everything they’re promising and if you get the vaccine, you shouldn’t get the virus. So if I don’t vaccinate myself, you shouldn’t be at risk; right? Why would I be required to take a vaccine that has a higher probability of injuring me, giving me a severe side effect, or a 1/1,000,000 chance of death when my own immune system has a better chance of fighting it off due to my age and health.
Get the jab, rube
And that kind of logic is why the vaccination effort is doomed to fail.Quote:
Why would I be required to take a vaccine that has a higher probability of injuring me, giving me a severe side effect, or a 1/1,000,000 chance of death when my own immune system has a better chance of fighting it off due to my age and health.
care to expand on that with facts and data? It’s literally a simple Risk v Reward. Not unlike skiing backcountry. If there’s unsafe conditions ahead, it’s better to turn back and remain healthy than go into the unknown and risk your life; no?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunion 2020
Nurses, doctors and PAs are humans who are susceptible to false internet rumors like anyone else. Stop wasting everyone's time with that shit. My wife works in a hospital and we are counting the days until she can get the vaccine to improve here chances of not being the 293,638th US fatality.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...-benefits.html
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-...ctive-and-safe
Wondering if there are varying degrees of success to the effort?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunion 2020
I guess long-term immunization is a question mark .. but if Babushka gets vaccine, I get it, and Bunion gets it, but mtu and PG don't .. at what point does the effort become futile?
The risks from the virus far exceed your pansy ass fears of getting poked with a needle.Quote:
Originally Posted by mtuhockey33
I had to dig out my measles vaccine record for a job application the other day. I was looking through all my other vaccines. My mom gave me these records when I left home. She was a nurse for 35 years with a keen medical sense, and obviously a big believer in vaccines. Anyway I found it interesting that I have been vaccinated for nine diseases, not including yearly flu shot.
Red Measles
German Measles
Mumps
Rubeola
Rubella
Polio
Diphtheria
Tetanus (rabies?)
Shingles
Risk v. Reward:Quote:
Originally Posted by mtuhockey33
Current known risks of COVID:
- Massively contagious
- Contagious even if you're not showing symptoms
- Old people die from this
- Hospitals are completely overwhelmed and will be forced to truly triage incoming cases covid or otherwise that they can't deal with (i.e. rationing care and choosing who dies in the waiting room)
- Businesses and people suffer economically to the point of suicide
- Travel restricted
- Schools shut down
- Potential long term health impacts to heart and lungs
- Potential massive saddling of medical debt if you are hospitalized
Current known risks of the vax:
- Side effects of soreness at the injection site, fatigue, and fever are common but pass quickly
Current unknown risks of the vax:
- Long term efficacy (i.e. need booster shots?)
- Can the vaccinated still spread it?
- Long term side effects (granted, most vax side effects appear quickly)
- 5G networks will be replaced with 6G in 2027
Current known benefit of the vax:
- Immune response is orders of magnitude higher than those that recovered from COVID (i.e. less likely to get reinfected)