To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

I'm going to refrain from commenting on the thoughts others have shared in this thread. For once, I'll heed the advice "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all."

To add a data point to the mix, I'm considered a "frontline" worker (i.e. not in healthcare, but in a field that is considered essential and a line of work that cannot be performed remotely), and as a result anticipate that I will be able to get vaccinated relatively early. I will be getting shot up as soon as the option is presented to me, as I fear both contracting and spreading COVID.

The greatest good for the greatest number.

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Originally Posted by The AD

Why not?

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Originally Posted by TBS

Curious about this myself. I’m in the “if Fauci takes it, I’ll take it” camp.
But there’s also enough time before I can get to front of the line for the vax, there’s time to pivot in the unlikely event a problem comes up.

For context, my sister ended up with polio from the bad batches of vaccine. And she’s ready to get the Covid vax.

Not trying to call you out, just interested in the hesitation

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Oh, I didn't mean my hand wasn't as high to receive the vaccine. I checked my place using the NY Times link in another thread and 4/5ths of my state is in front of me. If I could get it sooner I would. I'm healthy and apparently not old but the long term ramifications of having Covid is what concerns me. That and my partner and her kid are high risk and although we do our damndest to keep potential exposure low our children are in school and I hope that this helps keep them in person and it's been really tough on my daughter and although this will have a profound impact on her childhood I'd like to get back to some semblance of normalcy asap

My hand was lower in a tongue in cheek way that I'm not so sure I hope more of my country(wo)men survive. I understand people who are hesitant to get the vaccine but I do not understand the part of our country that thinks this is no worse than the flu and that there are people who die of Covid were close to death and as such should take one for our economy.

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Originally Posted by mmmm...pow!

I can't believe I need to remind you that these vaccines are on the verge of emergency authorization (different from the standard approval that won't happen for some time), and we still don't know if they will, in fact, prevent people from transmitting the virus.

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Testing strongly indicates they will, though.

And sorry I got a little bit worked up there, but it drives me nuts that people still aren't thinking about the ramifications to the population at large. Your decision on whether or not to get vaccinated needs to consider this. Yes, ultimately it's your decision whether or not to get vaccinated, but I hope everyone is considering the big picture.

I can get it soon - frontline worker. And I will. Pros outweigh the cons. Socially and personally.
I'm not too well versed, but I echo the concern re unknown risk of long term lung/heart damage. I don't like getting sick, or getting other people sick. If I don't get vaccinated when I have the chance, I could unknowingly transmit to someone waiting at the bottom of the list and hurt/kill them or their family in the meantime. That feels wrong to me.
I agree, with so many people not wanting to get it businesses might be able to say 'no vaccine? no fly, no visa, no entry, no service, etc' .. and with the social pressure surrounding the issue, that seems likely.
Selfishly I want to visit Babushka. I want to travel, see my friends, go to the gym, have a drink at a bar. I want our economy to recover, and see people back to work.
I could either just complain, or do something about it. If you have a chance to do something to help and you choose not to, you should lose your right to gripe about it.

Good enough for 92 year old Mona.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.che...e-19418148.amp

Bunch of cowards here. Let mommy and daddy break trail for you one more time before you kill them by prolonging this pandemic.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Boissal

Looks like he raised his kids to be equally kooky...


I hope she fails PA school. Seriously. OP is a Dr. of internet medicine but his kid girl is actually going to real school for real medicine and that's what she believes? Scary.

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Seriously. Kookiness and ignorance run in families. You'd be surprised by some of the behavior by healthcare workers which shouldn't jive with their "knowledge".

But to answer op's question. Hell yes you should get it. The worst symptoms are headache and fatigue for one day after the second shot. My wife will hopefully be getting one in the next month and is counting the days.

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As cases of Covid-19 continue to rise across the country, a poll of firefighters in the Fire Department of New York City (FDNY) found that nearly 55% of respondents would not get a Covid-19 vaccine if offered by the department, their union president told CNN Monday.

Despite research that shows firefighters were 15 times more likely to be infected, a majority of those who took the poll declined the offer of a vaccine.

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As I’ve posted several times, hell yes I’ll get the vaccine. I’m at the bottom of the list so it’ll be a while.

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Originally Posted by Yonder_River

You'd be surprised by some of the behavior by healthcare workers which shouldn't jive with their "knowledge".

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My parents used to live across from LDS hospital in the early 2000s. I was always amazed at the number of doctors and nurses outside smoking.

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Originally Posted by The AD

Testing strongly indicates they will, though.

And sorry I got a little bit worked up there, but it drives me nuts that people still aren't thinking about the ramifications to the population at large. Your decision on whether or not to get vaccinated needs to consider this. Yes, ultimately it's your decision whether or not to get vaccinated, but I hope everyone is considering the big picture.

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That's a very idealistic thought... The big picture for most is what's in it for them. That said, I plan to get the vaccine as soon as I'm able. It may be awhile since I'm not in the queue for it right away but I'll take it as soon as I can. I want to get my life back, go to restaurants, be social with our friends, etc. Until we get the majority of people on board and get to a point of herd immunity, we'll be wearing masks, limited numbers of people gathering, and other limits that have come about as a result of this. I told a bunch of our friends that we'll have a Vaccinated Party, once we're there. Without getting herd immunity and getting this behind us, we're going to be living lives of limitations that are more about existing than living. That's not the desired outcome.

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Originally Posted by GoldMember

That's a very idealistic thought... The big picture for most is what's in it for them. That said, I plan to get the vaccine as soon as I'm able. It may be awhile since I'm not in the queue for it right away but I'll take it as soon as I can. I want to get my life back, go to restaurants, be social with our friends, etc. Until we get the majority of people on board and get to a point of herd immunity, we'll be wearing masks, limited numbers of people gathering, and other limits that have come about as a result of this. I told a bunch of our friends that we'll have a Vaccinated Party, once we're there. Without getting herd immunity and getting this behind us, we're going to be living lives of limitations that are more about existing than living. That's not the desired outcome.

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Right, this should be the carrot. Everyone benefits from mass vaccination.

So, does anyone know the status of ‘recovered’ individuals in terms of receiving the vaccine?
Last on the list?
Just curious how that is going to look.

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Originally Posted by rideit

So, does anyone know the status of ‘recovered’ individuals in terms of receiving the vaccine?
Last on the list?
Just curious how that is going to look.

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LOL you think the Trump admin has a plan for distribution? Look to the UK, we'll probably copy whatever they do.

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Originally Posted by mmmm...pow!

I can't believe I need to remind you that these vaccines are on the verge of emergency authorization (different from the standard approval that won't happen for some time), and we still don't know if they will, in fact, prevent people from transmitting the virus. If we don't even know that yet, what else do we not know. I can't believe this needs to be explained at this point for fuck's sake.

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Originally Posted by The AD

Testing strongly indicates they will, though.

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It seems likely to me that vaccination will prevent people from transmitting the COVID. However, I have seen statements from Fauci that backs up what mmm...pow said. We don’t have proof that that is the case yet, and won’t until more long term studies are run. All we know now is that the vaccines will trigger the production of antibodies, and reduce the likelihood that someone will get sick, but doesn’t rule out that a person could get exposed to the virus and then pass it on by asymptomatic transmission.

At any rate, I’m getting the vaccine as soon as it is available to me. Certainly seems a lot better than nothing.

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Originally Posted by Woodsy

My parents used to live across from LDS hospital in the early 2000s. I was always amazed at the number of doctors and nurses outside smoking.

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Smokers outside the hospital doors, you say?



The saddest thing I've ever seen.

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Originally Posted by rideit

So, does anyone know the status of ‘recovered’ individuals in terms of receiving the vaccine?
Last on the list?
Just curious how that is going to look.

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I would think those who have already had Covid would be towards the end of the list. The vaccine isn't going to give you more immunity than you already have. At least until a booster is required (if at all).

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Originally Posted by Woodsy

My parents used to live across from LDS hospital in the early 2000s. I was always amazed at the number of doctors and nurses outside smoking.

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Nicotine is a tough bitch to beat, even when you know better. Took me many tries before I was able to break free. One of the best things I was able to do in my life. My brother and my mother were never able to kick the habit.

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Originally Posted by AdironRider

I would think those who have already had Covid would be towards the end of the list. The vaccine isn't going to give you more immunity than you already have. At least until a booster is required (if at all).

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I kind of figured as much, and that is fine. I just thought that it was worth some conversation, as there are (rare) reports of reinfection.

Totally, I am interested as well in terms of the long term effects (as in how long it works), and is this going to be a new vaccine that requires taking it regularly.

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Originally Posted by SKIP IN7RO

Fuck thy neighbor, the whole idea should have been to protect YOURSELF from the get-go.

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Well, sure, and knowing that in this case protecting YOURSELF is best accomplished if we all protect each other should have been the whole idea from the get-go, too. But the crux move in achieving enlightened self-interest has never been the self-interest.

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Originally Posted by rideit

I kind of figured as much, and that is fine. I just thought that it was worth some conversation, as there are (rare) reports of reinfection.

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Rare is relative. Could be a little less rare than the vaccine not working (discussed a few pages ago in the main thread).

Just a random thought on priorities, once the more vulnerable (elderly, healthcare workers, comorbidities) are vaccinated, how about those in younger age brackets (20-40) next. The idea being that they're the most likely to ignore the restrictions therefore more likely to get and spread the virus. Get them inoculated and significantly slow the spread to the more vulnerable. Plus, these tend to be the workers most economically damaged as their service jobs have been put into suspense and they don't have the same level of financial resources to not have to work so, they work and open the spread to others. Kind of a stop it at the source response. Like I said, just a random thought.

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Originally Posted by GoldMember

Just a random thought on priorities, once the more vulnerable (elderly, healthcare workers, comorbidities) are vaccinated, how about those in younger age brackets (20-40) next. The idea being that they're the most likely to ignore the restrictions therefore more likely to get and spread the virus. Get them inoculated and significantly slow the spread to the more vulnerable. Plus, these tend to be the workers most economically damaged as their service jobs have been put into suspense and they don't have the same level of financial resources to not have to work so, they work and open the spread to others. Kind of a stop it at the source response. Like I said, just a random thought.

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You're not wrong, but I don't think you're right either.

Main reason being the young are already thinking 'If I get it, I'll be ok.' Couple that with a spoonful of 'All my friends already got the vax, I'll be ok to go hang out with them' while it's being distributed, and I don't think it will serve to slow the spread at all. I think it would likely increase the behaviors we're currently trying to curb in this age group.

If we could get them all on the same day, maybe. But this roll out is going to take months.

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Originally Posted by DJSapp

You're not wrong, but I don't think you're right either.

Main reason being the young are already thinking 'If I get it, I'll be ok.' Couple that with a spoonful of 'All my friends already got the vax, I'll be ok to go hang out with them' while it's being distributed, and I don't think it will serve to slow the spread at all. I think it would likely increase the behaviors we're currently trying to curb in this age group.

If we could get them all on the same day, maybe. But this roll out is going to take months.

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The accompanying random thought... For those in, say, the restaurant industry, employers be allowed to open again at a reduced capacity but local public health officials require the employers to require a Covid passport for any employees, much like they require current health cards. But yeah, timing of release of the vaccine and time of distribution won't allow this to be and effective means. Like I said, just random thoughts.

Covid passport?

Lol, ok Stalin

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Originally Posted by east or bust

Covid passport?

Lol, ok Stalin

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...for lack of a better term. It's not unheard of for certain industry facilities to require some vaccinations. For example, my wife volunteered for a center for small children, 0-6 years old, and was required to get a couple of different vaccinations. I don't recall exactly which ones but I know TB was one. Food workers are required to have passed a test and be issued a FW card as a condition of employment. It's not that foreign of an idea to require they be vaccinated for deadly contagious diseases if they work in a public environment. If they choose not to, that's their choice and they can seek employment in another industry where they don't carry the same exposure. Like I said, random thoughts.

BTW, I didn't coin that term, it's been spoken broadly in the media and not just right-wing, either. https://www.today.com/health/covid-v...status-t203011

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Originally Posted by mmmm...pow!

I can't believe I need to remind you that these vaccines are on the verge of emergency authorization (different from the standard approval that won't happen for some time), and we still don't know if they will, in fact, prevent people from transmitting the virus. If we don't even know that yet, what else do we not know. I can't believe this needs to be explained at this point for fuck's sake.

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The reason we don't know is because as I understand it the Pfizer and Moderna studies didn't test asymptomatic recipients for virus. The Astrazeneca study did but they haven't released the results yet. We also don't know how long the vaccine protection lasts for obvious reasons. We don't know the risk of rare complications because enough people haven't been studied yet--the risk of Guillain Barre after swine flu vaccine in 1976 was 1/100,000. We don't know the risk of late appearing complications, but in the history of vaccines complications have appeared soon after vaccination. When vaccination required injecting entire dead or weakened virus there was always the risk that the virus wasn't weak or dead enough. With the current vaccines there is no virus being injected that could infect someone if it wasn't adequately deactivated, although I believe there are such vaccines in development.

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Originally Posted by GoldMember

Just a random thought on priorities, once the more vulnerable (elderly, healthcare workers, comorbidities) are vaccinated, how about those in younger age brackets (20-40) next. The idea being that they're the most likely to ignore the restrictions therefore more likely to get and spread the virus. Get them inoculated and significantly slow the spread to the more vulnerable. Plus, these tend to be the workers most economically damaged as their service jobs have been put into suspense and they don't have the same level of financial resources to not have to work so, they work and open the spread to others. Kind of a stop it at the source response. Like I said, just a random thought.

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This strategy would only work if very high percentages of these people were vaccinated, and this is the age group least likely to be willing to be vaccinated. Also, see above--we don't know yet if the vaccines prevent asymptomatic infection and transmission. Finally, with the health care system on the verge of collapse and with the very real threat of people dying of non-Covid causes due to unavailability of health care, the first priority after HCW's is to vaccinate those most likely to need hospitalization and ICU care. The problem with any prioritization scheme is that are a whole lot of people in any group you want to prioritize--essential workers, teachers , non elderly with medical risk --and not much vaccine for a while. In the meantime, we certainly need to protect the unemployed economically.

I duno, i got a buddy who did an informal FB survey of her young purple haired/ tatooed/ leaf liking/ crystal worshipping/ acid dropping/ rave going/ entry level worker types

6 out of 10 have never been vacinated and never will

I'll wait to see the real life "28 Days Later" scenario unfold in the UK. They need to shut off access to that island NOW.

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Originally Posted by XXX-er

I duno, i got a buddy who did an informal FB survey of her young purple haired/ tatooed/ leaf liking/ crystal worshipping/ acid dropping/ rave going/ entry level worker types

6 out of 10 have never been vacinated and never will

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Maybe if they couldn't get into raves without having been vaccinated, they'd rethink their resistance??? Or if there aren't any more raves because of the virus??? I really don't get this anti-vaxxing thing. Vaccinations through the 20th century have virtually eradicated so many crippling/deadly diseases it's unthinkable to me to not get them. But, whatever the little darlings want to do, that's their choice but I hope they're not too offended when many public places won't allow them to enter in the future without it.

Lots of interesting opinions in this thread so far, but here's something worth considering.

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Originally Posted by AdironRider

I would think those who have already had Covid would be towards the end of the list. The vaccine isn't going to give you more immunity than you already have. At least until a booster is required (if at all).

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That isn't what I heard from one of the government experts on NPR yesterday. He said the immune response from the vaccine is orders of magnitude stronger than the immunity from recovering from the virus.

Sorry no link. Just my memory and some dude on NPR that sounded like he knew a thing about this. Happy to be corrected if this is wrong.

Regardless rideit just plan to get it as soon as you can.

I'm 49 with no health conditions, but definitely essential in the food distribution world.
Wife is 46 with 2 pre-existing conditions that put her at more risk. Also essential city services worker. I really hope we get her in first.

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8.3. Known Risks

The vaccine has been shown to elicit increased local and systemic adverse reactions as compared to those in the placebo arm, usually lasting a few days. The most common solicited adverse reactions were injection site reactions (84.1%), fatigue (62.9%), headache (55.1%),muscle pain (38.3%), chills (31.9%), joint pain (23.6%), fever (14.2%). Adverse reactions characterized as reactogenicity were generally mild to moderate. The number of subjects reporting hypersensitivity-related adverse events was numerically higher in the vaccine group compared with the placebo group (137 [0.63%] vs. 111 [0.51%]).

Severe adverse reactions occurred in 0.0-4.6% of participants, were more frequent after Dose 2 than after Dose 1 and were generally less frequent in older adults (>55 years of age) (<2.8%) as compared to younger participants (≤4.6%). Among reported unsolicited adverse events, lymphadenopathy occurred much more frequently in the vaccine group than the placebo group and is plausibly related to vaccination.

Serious adverse events, while uncommon (<1.0%), represented medical events that occur in the general population at similar frequency as observed in the study. Three SAEs in the BNT162b2 group were considered related by the investigator, but not the Sponsor, as related to study vaccination: shoulder injury (n=1), ventricular arrhythmia in a participant with known cardiac conditions (n=1), and lymphadenopathy temporally related following vaccination (n=1).

We considered two of the events as possibly related to vaccine: the shoulder injury possibly due to vaccine administration or the vaccine itself and lymphadenopathy. Lymphadenopathy was temporally associated and biologically plausible.

No specific safety concerns were identified in subgroup analyses by age, race, ethnicity, medical comorbidities, or prior SARS-CoV-2 infection. Although participants 16 to 17 years of age were enrolled in the phase 3 trial, safety data for this age group is limited. However, available data are consistent with the safety profile in the adult population, and it is biologically reasonable to extrapolate the greater safety experience in adults, in particular younger adults, to the oldest pediatric age group of 16 to 17 years

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Being that the placebo was actually a meningitis vaccine (or was it measles mumps rubella vaccine?), but the point is, the COVID-19 vaccine elicited greater adverse reactions than *another vaccine*.

> usually lasting a few days
As compared to the placebo, which was another vaccine.


>Severe adverse reactions occurred in 0.0-4.6% of participants, were more frequent after Dose 2 than after Dose 1 and were generally less frequent in older adults (>55 years of age) (<2.8%) as compared to younger participants (≤4.6%). Among reported unsolicited adverse events, lymphadenopathy occurred much more frequently in the vaccine group than the placebo group and is plausibly related to vaccination.

OK this is not just another vaccine. Severe reactions could happen with 4.6% of those who get it.

> fatigue (62.9%), headache (55.1%),muscle pain (38.3%), chills (31.9%), joint pain (23.6%), fever (14.2%).
Too bad they didn't check for damage or stress responses to the heart muscle. If it causes inflammation, then it causes inflammation.


> And your testicles and ovaries might shrink and/or your offspring will be born snowboarders.
OK. I made that up. But you never know!!!

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Originally Posted by XXX-er

I duno, i got a buddy who did an informal FB survey of her young purple haired/ tatooed/ leaf liking/ crystal worshipping/ acid dropping/ rave going/ entry level worker types

6 out of 10 have never been vacinated and never will

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Seems a bit dramatic a description. Though this whole thing there have been places where people congregate to hook up. And because there are fewer of these places they are really packed. It's never changed and it's not going to change.

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Originally Posted by Mofro261

Demand.

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^^^^^ This. Turns out, unless there's a raging pandemic, the demand for vaccines isn't enough to pay for their development.

Dammit; 2 days late and $100 short, again.

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Originally Posted by GoldMember

Maybe if they couldn't get into raves without having been vaccinated, they'd rethink their resistance??? Or if there aren't any more raves because of the virus??? I really don't get this anti-vaxxing thing. Vaccinations through the 20th century have virtually eradicated so many crippling/deadly diseases it's unthinkable to me to not get them. But, whatever the little darlings want to do, that's their choice but I hope they're not too offended when many public places won't allow them to enter in the future without it.

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I wouldn't be shocked of a bunch of them were vaccinated as kids and they don't count that/don't remember it.

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Originally Posted by Gcooker

I'll wait to see the real life "28 Days Later" scenario unfold in the UK. They need to shut off access to that island NOW.

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What if it ends up being more like "Shaun of the Dead" because that shit was hilarious.

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Originally Posted by uglymoney

That isn't what I heard from one of the government experts on NPR yesterday. He said the immune response from the vaccine is orders of magnitude stronger than the immunity from recovering from the virus.

Sorry no link. Just my memory and some dude on NPR that sounded like he knew a thing about this. Happy to be corrected if this is wrong.

Regardless rideit just plan to get it as soon as you can.

I'm 49 with no health conditions, but definitely essential in the food distribution world.
Wife is 46 with 2 pre-existing conditions that put her at more risk. Also essential city services worker. I really hope we get her in first.

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I've heard that they should be vaccinated once there is enough vaccine--but end of the line seems appropriate to me, given that the risk of reinfection so far seems to be very low.

Once everyone has had a chance to be vaccinated I wonder if the govt will have the foresight to pay to maintain the infrastructure for vaccine production--either for weakening immunity, a covid mutation, or a new pandemic. Hopefully not a repeat of the situation with the guy in Texas who ramped up N95 production during SARS at the request of the govt and then had his legs cut out from under him after SARS went away. At this point it should be clear that pandemic protection is more important to national security than the military--at least military at the level we maintain it--and at least on a par with cybersecurity. And we need to be able to produce vaccines, critical drugs on shore, in addition to the PPE.

Imagine if we relied on China for our fighter jets and nuclear weapons. Or didn't start making them until we were attacked.

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Originally Posted by concretejungle

My hand was lower in a tongue in cheek way that I'm not so sure I hope more of my country(wo)men survive. I understand people who are hesitant to get the vaccine but I do not understand the part of our country that thinks this is no worse than the flu and that there are people who die of Covid were close to death and as such should take one for our economy.

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I don't like it but share the sentiment.

Here is where we are today.

Our PCP who is in her late 40's has taken it, as well as the other docs in her practice.

The known side effects of the vaccine are less than the known long-term possible adverse health effects of COVID for her, i.e. pulmonary fibrosis, rhumatic heart issues, pulmonary hypertension, and a host of others.

So, I suspect she will be taking the vaccine. When available, I will likely do the same.

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Originally Posted by Kinnikinnick

Are we going to just get one vaccine available in a given locale or will be able to choose?

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