To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

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Originally Posted by DJSapp

In a hospital with a shared HVAC system with the infected? I'd get it in a heartbeat if I could. I'm further down the line as essential construction and fully intend to get the shot from whomever is available when my number is called. I want my covid passport.

This isn't some fly-by-night homebrewed snake oil. My neighbor works in (Big Pharma, but his company doesn't have a vax through stage 3 yet) local billion manufacturing plant as a director of quality. They take this shit damn seriously. Rushed to production typically means it's not the most efficient, most cost effective that it could be in their world. Pfizer's needs to be kept super cold and has a short shelf life. That's because it was rushed and not optimized. They know it's more important to get this distributed and fast because they need ~16 billion doses. If they make $2 on each, $32 billion in profits is a good year.

Yeah, we don't know the long term effects of the vaccine, but we also don't know the long term effects of hormonal birth control either (we're really close though! It is 60 years old this year!), or the chicken pox vaccine (about 30 years old).

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We don't even have the data the gubbernment is using for *emergency approvals*. The transparency of all this decision making is ...
fascinating.

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Originally Posted by Boissal

Looks like he raised his kids to be equally kooky...


I hope she fails PA school. Seriously. OP is a Dr. of internet medicine but his kid girl is actually going to real school for real medicine and that's what she believes? Scary.

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I know a few nurses who are concerned about it. And they aren't the anti vaccine or 'covid's not a thing' nurses. I suppose I get some of the concern but maybe I just have too much faith?

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Originally Posted by Flyoverland Captive

I got my flu shot today, so Bill Gates is already tracking my movements; might as well go all in. When available, I’ll get it.

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I've got a line on some magic underwear that protects you from the 5g, even if it's already inside you. Don't let them track you!

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Originally Posted by Flyoverland Captive

I got my flu shot today, so Bill Gates is already tracking my movements; might as well go all in. When available, I’ll get it.

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I heard the key downside of rushing the covid vaccine to market is that it won't be optimized for autism. Even so, Ms TBS and I are still getting it as soon as we can.

And lets get it straight - George Soros is the one tracking us with his fleet of micro-UAVs. Using software developed by Bill Gates in the basement of a pizza parlor in DC. Financed by the Clinton Foundation.

On a serious note, from what I've read recently, more than 60% immunity is required for "herd" levels. So if the vaccines are 90% effective, we need 0.6/0.9 = 66% of the population to get vaccinated.

Current surveys show that more than 30% of Americans will refuse the vaccine. So, we may not get to herd immunity until a large portion of the anti-vaxxers get sick.

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Originally Posted by TBS

I heard the key downside of rushing the covid vaccine to market is that it won't be optimized for autism. Even so, Ms TBS and I are still getting it as soon as we can.

And lets get it straight - George Soros is the one tracking us with his fleet of micro-UAVs. Using software developed by Bill Gates in the basement of a pizza parlor in DC. Financed by the Clinton Foundation.

On a serious note, from what I've read recently, more than 60% immunity is required for "herd" levels. So if the vaccines are 90% effective, we need 0.6/0.9 = 66% of the population to get vaccinated.

Current surveys show that more than 30% of Americans will refuse the vaccine. So, we may not get to herd immunity until a large portion of the anti-vaxxers get sick.

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or who knows; maybe the majority of the population has already had the virus, was asymptomatic and we’re already a lot closer to herd immunity than thought.

the problem is the lack of transparency with this virus. Is there a reason (other than money) that would cause vaccine makers to not work together during a pandemic? Isn’t the whole idea, wear a mask to protect your neighbor? Why don’t all the vaccine companies put their data and trials together so we could get a safer vaccine that’s been thoroughly tested instead of keeping quiet on literally everything from ingredients to symptoms?

this is a pandemic after all; I thought we were all about saving lives over here.

Have there been any reports of zombieism as a side effect to any of the vaccines?

The right wing dumb dumbs complaining about the invisible hand is ironing. Why wouldn't these companies work together for the greater good!? Wah!

Are we going to just get one vaccine available in a given locale or will be able to choose?




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Just a general observation not related to TNK, but I think it’s interesting how worked up people get about vaccines, which aren’t typically big money makers, while they inhale a cocktail of highly profitable drugs made by the same companies.

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Originally Posted by MTT

This is where the rubber is gonna hit the road. Can the Gov or a company dictate what you put in your body as a condition of employment or even access.

Here come the train.

I don't know who will win in the short term. Long run "Unconstitutional" if that is even a thing anymore.

I don't think your wife is gonna get an option to not vaccinate and keep working in a Hospital

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Yes, employers can definitely require a vaccine as a condition of employment. You are free to get another job if you don't like it. As for the gov't, it doesn't seem like they can require it for everyone, and I haven't seen anything that indicates a desire to do so. But vaccines are already required for kids to go to public school in most places, so this will probably be another one on the list.
And I would suspect most hospitals will require vaccines. But I did see an article that mentioned a survey of FDNY firefighters, over 50% aren't planning on taking it. And these are the people that saw all the shit hitting the fan first hand a while back. I'm kinda surprised they are being given an option, so maybe it's just gonna come down to whoever is calling the shots for any particular organization.
And anyone that thinks the thinking on this boils down to left vs. right, or anti-vaxxer vs. enlightened, is a fucking dumbass. I'm all for vaccines that have been thoroughly tested, and used for decades, with proven safety records. These vaccines are none of those.

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Originally Posted by mmmm...pow!

But I did see an article that mentioned a survey of FDNY firefighters, over 50% aren't planning on taking it. And these are the people that saw all the shit hitting the fan first hand a while back. I'm kinda surprised they are being given an option, so maybe it's just gonna come down to whoever is calling the shots for any particular organization.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9NBJqM-vdM

here are some of those fdny FFers in their element.

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Originally Posted by mtuhockey33

or who knows; maybe the majority of the population has already had the virus, was asymptomatic and we’re already a lot closer to herd immunity than thought.

the problem is the lack of transparency with this virus. Is there a reason (other than money) that would cause vaccine makers to not work together during a pandemic? Isn’t the whole idea, wear a mask to protect your neighbor? Why don’t all the vaccine companies put their data and trials together so we could get a safer vaccine that’s been thoroughly tested instead of keeping quiet on literally everything from ingredients to symptoms?

this is a pandemic after all; I thought we were all about saving lives over here.

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Interesting you mention that. A group of Stanford Doctors using their Antibodies test did and are doing that study. What they published said just that. Lots of people have already been exposed And they were promptly crucified. Now six months later these findings are boiling back to the surface. It's impossible to find the study on the University web site. Alternate right wing media is covering it now.

The new story is going to be, even if you already had it, it mutates and you could catch it again. I was told that today by the lady at the VA scheduling my Covid test on the 10th of December.

with no insider knowledge, I can pretty much guarantee that travel into other countries and into the USA will require proof of a vacine and maybe a negative test. Just watch it go down.

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Originally Posted by bagtagley

Just a general observation not related to TNK, but I think it’s interesting how worked up people get about vaccines, which aren’t typically big money makers, while they inhale a cocktail of highly profitable drugs made by the same companies.

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Seriousness. People want to pay for a cure, not a prevention. Because when you are sick, price is no limit; when you are well, shelling out for something that may or may not happen seems pointless.

Who really needs health insurance in their 20's anyway?

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Originally Posted by mmmm...pow!

My initial thinking is that it should be like the flu shot - if you're worried about catching it, get the shot, if not, don't.

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This is fucked up logic. Just like the flu shot you should get it because of others, not yourself. I can't belief this needs to be explained at this point for fuck's sake. :mad:

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Originally Posted by The AD

This is fucked up logic. Just like the flu shot you should get it because of others, not yourself. I can't belief this needs to be explained at this point for fuck's sake. :mad:

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i actually agree with you, but just for fun. Explain it to me.

If you are vaccinated, you wear a mask, you wash your hands, Why woulld you give two shits about someone else not getting vaccinated?

How is it your problem or any of your business?

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Originally Posted by MTT

If you are vaccinated, you wear a mask, you wash your hands, Why woulld you give two shits about someone else not getting vaccinated?

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Because it's an infectious disease and vaccination is how we curb infectious diseases. It's about public health. Bottom line. Why do you think we poke babies with a bunch of needles? It's not because doctors are sadists.

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Originally Posted by The AD

This is fucked up logic. Just like the flu shot you should get it because of others, not yourself. I can't belief this needs to be explained at this point for fuck's sake. :mad:

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We could explain this a thousand times, wouldn’t stop the idiot talking points. Idiocy and selfishness are spreading...like a pandemic.

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Originally Posted by frorider

We could explain this a thousand times, wouldn’t stop the idiot talking points. Idiocy and selfishness are spreading...like a pandemic.

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It's so Goddamned frustrating.

Meanwhile "The U.S. has recorded its most Covid-19 deaths in a week." link

It’s like a complete disconnect that we are a SOCIETY. How many of us would rather more of us survive? My hand is raised, apparently others aren’t.

John Galt would disagree.

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Originally Posted by BobMc

It’s like a complete disconnect that we are a SOCIETY. How many of us would rather more of us survive? My hand is raised, apparently others aren’t.

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I’ll get the vaccine but my hand isn’t raised as high as it once was.

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Originally Posted by concretejungle

I’ll get the vaccine but my hand isn’t raised as high as it once was.

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Why not?

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Originally Posted by BobMc

It’s like a complete disconnect that we are a SOCIETY. How many of us would rather more of us survive? My hand is raised, apparently others aren’t.

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People can’t seem to understand that everyone working together for the common good creates a better result than the me-against-the-world, don’t tread on Muh Freedumbz philosophy

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Originally Posted by TBS

People can’t seem to understand that everyone working together for the common good creates a better result than the me-against-the-world, don’t tread on Muh Freedumbz philosophy

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Ayn Rand has poisoned the well.

A hospital system exec I saw interviewed said that 90% of their employees in a survey said they would take the vaccine. If I were exec I wouldn't be offering it to Mrs TNK yet--I don't think there's going to be enough at first to vaccinate people who aren't doing direct care. But if she gets the chance--as a HCW (RN?--the PCC's I know are RN's, including my wife at one point) she is better qualified to decided than her husband or daughter.

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Originally Posted by mtuhockey33

or who knows; maybe the majority of the population has already had the virus, was asymptomatic and we’re already a lot closer to herd immunity than thought.

the problem is the lack of transparency with this virus. Is there a reason (other than money) that would cause vaccine makers to not work together during a pandemic? Isn’t the whole idea, wear a mask to protect your neighbor? Why don’t all the vaccine companies put their data and trials together so we could get a safer vaccine that’s been thoroughly tested instead of keeping quiet on literally everything from ingredients to symptoms?

this is a pandemic after all; I thought we were all about saving lives over here.

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I believe the 3 vaccines on the verge of approval are collaborations. Small drug development companies are often one trick ponies--they have one basic technology that they use to attack different problems, so one company can't easily adopt another companies technology. The fact that there are multiple different approaches to the vaccine is a good thing IMO. No one knew going into this thing what would work the best. Over time one or more approaches may turn out to be the best but at this point which that would be is not clear and it may well turn out that different vaccines are more appropriate for different environments--there's the freezer issue for example. Also, if different vaccines require different raw materials it would be good to have options, so that the unavailabiltiy of one material doesn't stop all vaccine production.

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Originally Posted by concretejungle

I’ll get the vaccine but my hand isn’t raised as high as it once was.

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Originally Posted by The AD

Why not?

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Curious about this myself. I’m in the “if Fauci takes it, I’ll take it” camp.
But there’s also enough time before I can get to front of the line for the vax, there’s time to pivot in the unlikely event a problem comes up.

For context, my sister ended up with polio from the bad batches of vaccine. And she’s ready to get the Covid vax.

Not trying to call you out, just interested in the hesitation

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Originally Posted by Buster Highmen

Ayn Rand has poisoned the well.

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Any Rand was a nutcase with a bad case of PTSD from the Russian Revolution

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Originally Posted by puregravity

Please quantify those chances. Assume that the CDC is correct and that N-times as many people have had it as officially tested. Are the complications reasonably expected or are they statistical outliers?

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I did not write this - and take this with a grain of salt (although it was written by a doctor I don’t know where they got the numbers from)
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How can a disease with 1% mortality shut down a country?

There are two problems with this question

1) It neglects the law of large numbers (1% of US population would be over 3 million)

and

2) It assumes that one of two things happen; you die or you are 100% fine

The second bit is that people keep talking about deaths. Deaths, deaths, deaths. Only one percent die! Just one percent! One is a small number! No big deal, right?

What about the people who survive?

For every one person who dies:
- 19 more require hospitalization
- 18 of those will have some form of permanent heart damage for the rest of their lives
- 10 will have some degree of permanent lung damage
- 3 will have strokes
- 2 will have neurological damage that leads to chronic weakness and loss of coordination
- 2 will have neurological damage that leads to loss of cognitive function

This is what the folks who keep on about "only 1% dead, what's the big deal?" don't get.

It's not just 1% dead. Imagine the cost to our country, Imagine the clogged hospitals. Imagine all the loved ones who die or suffer health effects the rest of their lives.

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But cmon puregravity - you’re the TGR king of internet research. You shouldn’t be asking me or anyone to do you homework for you.

Start here:

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2771581

“ among 26 competitive college athletes who received a diagnosis of COVID-19 by reverse transcriptase–polymerase chain reaction, none of whom required hospitalization and the majority without reported symptoms, 12 (46%) had evidence of myocarditis or prior myocardial injury by cardiac magnetic resonance imaging routinely performed for positive testing results (range, 12-53 days later). The durability and consequences of such imaging findings are not yet known and longer follow-up is needed.

However, an increased incidence of heart failure as a major sequela of COVID-19 is of concern, with considerable potential implications for the general population of older adults with multimorbidity, as well as for younger previously healthy patients, including athletes.”

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Originally Posted by mtuhockey33

or who knows; maybe the majority of the population has already had the virus, was asymptomatic and we’re already a lot closer to herd immunity than thought.

the problem is the lack of transparency with this virus. Is there a reason (other than money) that would cause vaccine makers to not work together during a pandemic? Isn’t the whole idea, wear a mask to protect your neighbor? Why don’t all the vaccine companies put their data and trials together so we could get a safer vaccine that’s been thoroughly tested instead of keeping quiet on literally everything from ingredients to symptoms?

this is a pandemic after all; I thought we were all about saving lives over here.

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Originally Posted by MTT

Interesting you mention that. A group of Stanford Doctors using their Antibodies test did and are doing that study. What they published said just that. Lots of people have already been exposed And they were promptly crucified. Now six months later these findings are boiling back to the surface. It's impossible to find the study on the University web site. Alternate right wing media is covering it now.

The new story is going to be, even if you already had it, it mutates and you could catch it again. I was told that today by the lady at the VA scheduling my Covid test on the 10th of December.

with no insider knowledge, I can pretty much guarantee that travel into other countries and into the USA will require proof of a vacine and maybe a negative test. Just watch it go down.

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The recent Stanford antibody study was either easy or hard to find depending on one's willingness to exit the echo chamber and click on the first search result taking you to the Stanford Medicine web site:

As of the end of September Fewer than 1 in 10 Americans have antibodies to coronavirus, study finds.

Instead of writing long easily disproven posts all the non-sheeple false flag conspiracy free thinkers can save time by using this simple template:

Why bother [insert anything here] ? They are trying to control you.

A few examples:

Why bother taking a vaccine? They are trying to control you.
Why bother to test a hoax? They are trying to control you.
Why bother wearing a mask? They are trying to control you.

I will get the vaccine as soon as it is offered to me. I'm some ways I should be happy that many won't take it, that much quicker that I get mine. But I care about public health so I hope everybody gets it.

Some of you sound like you think they just brewed this out back, and 15 people have successfully taken it. However, thousands and thousands and thousands of people have taken this, with results that show it's safe and effective. A guarantee? Life doesn't have guarantees, you could get hit by a bus on your way to get the shot. But the right choice seems pretty clear.

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Originally Posted by bennymac

What about your chances of getting covid and being symptomatic for 4-5 weeks? What about your chances of getting covid and getting permanent heart and/or lung damage? What about your chances of not having symptoms and not dying from a covid infection but then giving it to someone that dies...or has heart damage for life etc etc.

What about the chances of people who pass themselves off as smart continuing to pose this as a “you’re unlikely to die so what’s the big deal?” binary problem?

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That’s a lot of wha’da bouts.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

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Originally Posted by mtuhockey33

Isn’t the whole idea, wear a mask to protect your neighbor?.

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Fuck thy neighbor, the whole idea should have been to protect YOURSELF from the get-go.

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Originally Posted by bennymac

For every one person who dies:
- 19 more require hospitalization
- 18 of those will have some form of permanent heart damage for the rest of their lives
- 10 will have some degree of permanent lung damage
- 3 will have strokes
- 2 will have neurological damage that leads to chronic weakness and loss of coordination
- 2 will have neurological damage that leads to loss of cognitive function

...

among 26 competitive college athlete.... 12 (46%) had evidence of myocarditis or prior myocardial injury by cardiac magnetic resonance imaging routinely performed for positive testing results (range, 12-53 days later). "

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The stats
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Are those inclusive or exclusive of each other?

For every one person who dies:
- 19 more require hospitalization ( I assume all the other categories are included in this, correct?)

- 18 of those will have some form of permanent heart damage for the rest of their lives
- 10 will have some degree of permanent lung damage (does heart damage and lung damage go together? With strokes and other too?)
- 3 will have strokes (does this include the neurological damage stats too?)
- 2 will have neurological damage that leads to chronic weakness and loss of coordination (also included in prior or next stat??)
- 2 will have neurological damage that leads to loss of cognitive function


Athletes
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OK. So do they know how many had it because of, or prior?
Is it correlated with Red Bull consumption?
Did they exercise during their infected status?


How many athletes (or others) had their hearts and lungs inspected prior to the disease?
(A lot of jocks smoke, toke, or puff stuff or even powdery stuff. Being an athlete does not exclude one from having an existing lung condition. Childhood Pneumonia could also do the same things.)
How do they know it is permanent since the disease is still novel and a year old (many in the study probably only a short time studied)?
How do they know what will lead to chronic whatevers? Has chronic even been determined???
Loss of cognitive function. OK. Most athletes in college already suffer from that.

Of all of the afflicted, what % are they of all people that get covid?


I didn't read the link you posted. Sorry.

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Originally Posted by puregravity

I didn't read the link you posted. Sorry.

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Apology not accepted.

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Originally Posted by The AD

This is fucked up logic. Just like the flu shot you should get it because of others, not yourself. I can't belief this needs to be explained at this point for fuck's sake. :mad:

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I can't believe I need to remind you that these vaccines are on the verge of emergency authorization (different from the standard approval that won't happen for some time), and we still don't know if they will, in fact, prevent people from transmitting the virus. If we don't even know that yet, what else do we not know. I can't believe this needs to be explained at this point for fuck's sake.

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Originally Posted by MultiVerse

The recent Stanford antibody study was either easy or hard to find depending on one's willingness to exit the echo chamber and click on the first search result taking you to the Stanford Medicine web site:

As of the end of September Fewer than 1 in 10 Americans have antibodies to coronavirus, study finds.

Instead of writing long easily disproven posts all the non-sheeple false flag conspiracy free thinkers can save time by using this simple template:

Why bother [insert anything here] ? They are trying to control you.

A few examples:

Why bother taking a vaccine? They are trying to control you.
Why bother to test a hoax? They are trying to control you.
Why bother wearing a mask? They are trying to control you.

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There are conflicting views coming from Stanford. Interesting situation.

The articles on the front page are not from the scientists / Professors who did the original study. This is just information. Being a dick and calling people stupid or close minded is a pathetic way to have a conversation about anything. Now I just think your ??? Not worth my time time.https://youtu.be/EjP_i9fdhAo

‘Natural Immunity’ From Covid Is Not Safer Than a Vaccine

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/h...e=articleShare

“ As many as one in three people who recover from Covid have chronic complaints, including exhaustion and a racing heart, for months afterward. This includes people under 35 with no previous health conditions. Some survivors of Covid also show troubling signs that their body has turned on itself, with symptoms similar to those of lupus and rheumatoid arthritis.

Covid vaccines, in contrast, carry little known risk. They have been tested in tens of thousands of people with no serious side effects — at least so far. “Once you start vaccinating millions, you might find very, very rare events,” Dr. Hanage said. “But we have to know that they are very, very rare and much more rare than the adverse events associated with natural infection.”

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Originally Posted by mmmm...pow!

Yes, employers can definitely require a vaccine as a condition of employment. You are free to get another job if you don't like it. As for the gov't, it doesn't seem like they can require it for everyone, and I haven't seen anything that indicates a desire to do so. But vaccines are already required for kids to go to public school in most places, so this will probably be another one on the list.
And I would suspect most hospitals will require vaccines. But I did see an article that mentioned a survey of FDNY firefighters, over 50% aren't planning on taking it. And these are the people that saw all the shit hitting the fan first hand a while back. I'm kinda surprised they are being given an option, so maybe it's just gonna come down to whoever is calling the shots for any particular organization.
And anyone that thinks the thinking on this boils down to left vs. right, or anti-vaxxer vs. enlightened, is a fucking dumbass. I'm all for vaccines that have been thoroughly tested, and used for decades, with proven safety records. These vaccines are none of those.

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I think they might require it eventually but any entity that is subject to civil liability would be crazy to do so at this point.

Many hospitals still don't require their employees get flu shots. Their are strict regulations for those who don't but it's still an option.

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Originally Posted by MTT

i actually agree with you, but just for fun. Explain it to me.

If you are vaccinated, you wear a mask, you wash your hands, Why woulld you give two shits about someone else not getting vaccinated?

How is it your problem or any of your business?

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Well first off, vaccines aren’t 100% effective. So it’s always possible that you can still get sick. Second, other people are still getting sick and dying. They’re endangering everyone including HCW. They’re also using resources that could be used to treat other non-preventable conditions. Third, the quicker everyone gets vaccinated, the quicker we can get back to whatever normal is. This has a huge economic impact. As someone else said - it’s public health, not “me health.”

My body, my choice?

https://i.imgflip.com/4pirlg.jpg

TL;DR - I'm getting the vaccine when it's available due to my experience with modern biological medicine.

I'm going to get the vaccine as soon as I can. Being immuno compromised I hope that is sooner rather than later. While I'm concerned about side effects and effectiveness I'm also astounded by modern medicine. Comparing what is going on today to the polio vaccine from 65 years ago is night and day.

After over a decade of dealing with a chronic disease my life was changed a year ago with a new biological drug. It still blows my mind that scientists were able to develop a protein that I can inject in my stomach every 2 months. This protein goes directly to interleukin 5 receptors on eosinophils. It binds to that receptor and prevents the eosinophil from signaling for the nutrients it needs to survive, thus eliminating the eosinophils. Prior to this drug I had to use prednisone and cellcept to depress my entire immune system and those had major side effects. No side effects at all with the Fasenra.

I like to think I'm a relatively intelligent person but the level of science involved makes my brain hurt. Yes, this vaccine has been done incredibly fast but the research on how mRNA works has been going on for years. As I understand it the mRNA creates the spike protein that's on the surface of Covid allowing our bodies to build immunity. It's very targeted and specific. Much different than past vaccines.