To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

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Originally Posted by TNKen

Few stories.

Billiard playing friend, anti-vaxxer, deceased.
20 you kid, unvaccinated, vaped for the last year, deceased Friday.
Guy in our church, big fellow, 6'11", anti vaxxer, wife w/ 5 kids (3 adopted), moved to ICU this am in critical condition. D-variant.

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Thoughts for the affected. That's shitty.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/30/h...lta-masks.html

Whoops. NYT would run an article like this a Friday and treat it like a nothingburger.

While COVID is worse than the flu, when do we start treating it like the flu, because at this point we've tried all the options, and unfortunately they haven't worked.

It is incredulous to think that we can eradicate this virus at this point. The r0 value is too high, and we "live with the virus" is really our only option at this point.

Well, at least we learned which of our group has Authoritarian tendencies after this failed experiment. ..

I did some digging on rj a couple years back when I was dumb enough to engage him on the global warming thread. It seemed to me that the had been a legit poster for a while, disappeared for a long while and reappeared as a troll. My money is on the account having been hacked and is an agent of disinformation and planter of distrust. I vote ban hammer.
That said, don't engage, and for fucks sake don't quote the piece of shit.

sent from Utah.

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Originally Posted by Asspen

While COVID is worse than the flu, when do we start treating it like the flu, because at this point we've tried all the options, and unfortunately they haven't worked.

It is incredulous to think that we can eradicate this virus at this point.

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I'd say part of the problem is your supposition that nothing has worked because we haven't "eradicated the virus" yet.

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Originally Posted by Asspen

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/30/h...lta-masks.html

Whoops. NYT would run an article like this a Friday and treat it like a nothingburger.

While COVID is worse than the flu, when do we start treating it like the flu, because at this point we've tried all the options, and unfortunately they haven't worked.

It is incredulous to think that we can eradicate this virus at this point. The r0 value is too high, and we "live with the virus" is really our only option at this point.

Well, at least we learned which of our group has Authoritarian tendencies after this failed experiment. ..

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https://youtu.be/lOTyUfOHgas

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Originally Posted by Asspen

While COVID is worse than the flu, when do we start treating it like the flu

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IMO both of the following have occurred:
1. Everyone who wants a vaccine has had a chance (DONE)
2. When there is no hazard of overwhelming the health systems (NOT DONE).
3. Declaration that US Taxpayers are no longer paying for COVID treatment in unvaccinated patients. (NOT DONE)

Still having health system surges, overflows, emergency capacity expansions, states shipping patients to other states, hospitals on divert, etc...

That said, treating flu like flu has always been a mind-blowing disregard for death, suffering, and wasted resources.

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It is incredulous to think that we can eradicate this virus at this point. The r0 value is too high, and we "live with the virus" is really our only option at this point.

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Many diseases with higher R0 have or had become non-endemic (locally eradicated, imported cases only) through vaccination induced herd immunity. This included the most contagious (highest R0) disease known to mankind: Measles.... that is until the antivaxxers fucked it all up.

We only have to "live with the virus" because the antivaxxers are making that choice and imposing it on everyone else. But please do go on about authoritarianism?

ORLANDO, Fla. – A day after it recorded the most new daily cases since the start of the pandemic, Florida on Sunday broke a previous record for current hospitalizations set more than a year ago before vaccines were available.

The Sunshine State had 10,207 people hospitalized with confirmed COVID-19 cases, according to data reported to the U.S. Department of Health & Human Services.
https://www.foxnews.com/health/flori...spitalizations

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Originally Posted by Asspen

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/30/h...lta-masks.html

Whoops. NYT would run an article like this a Friday and treat it like a nothingburger.

While COVID is worse than the flu, when do we start treating it like the flu, because at this point we've tried all the options, and unfortunately they haven't worked.

It is incredulous to think that we can eradicate this virus at this point. The r0 value is too high, and we "live with the virus" is really our only option at this point.

Well, at least we learned which of our group has Authoritarian tendencies after this failed experiment. ..

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Why are people such suckers for SEO optimization? Is it because people only read the headlines?

Obviously, antivax social media accounts are having a field day with these kinds of unforced errors (RJ and others have been running with variations for a while now). Not only was this the main topic of discussion over the weekend, but if people posting these articles would actually read the stories and think about them, scores of clickbait headlines wouldn't be so terrible because the article actually says your arguments are bullshit:

"Infections in vaccinated Americans are rare, compared with those in unvaccinated people, the document said. But when they occur, vaccinated people may spread the virus just as easily.

Still, the C.D.C.’s figures show that the vaccines are highly effective in preventing serious illness, hospitalization and death in vaccinated people, experts said.

“Overall, Delta is the troubling variant we already knew it was,” said John Moore, a virologist at Weill Cornell Medicine in New York. “But the sky isn’t falling and vaccination still protects strongly against the worse outcomes.”"

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Originally Posted by k2skier112

ORLANDO, Fla. – A day after it recorded the most new daily cases since the start of the pandemic, Florida on Sunday broke a previous record for current hospitalizations set more than a year ago before vaccines were available.

The Sunshine State had 10,207 people hospitalized with confirmed COVID-19 cases, according to data reported to the U.S. Department of Health & Human Services.
https://www.foxnews.com/health/flori...spitalizations

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Yup. Talked to my Dad in Sarasota over the weekend, local hospital no longer allowing visitors.

And big props to the Rev for bringing the sensible heat, our current situation is fucking maddening

Yeah, so I guess my sister-in-law thinks "chinese herbs" will protect her.
Like, what the fuck?

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Originally Posted by k2skier112

ORLANDO, Fla. – A day after it recorded the most new daily cases since the start of the pandemic, Florida on Sunday broke a previous record for current hospitalizations set more than a year ago before vaccines were available.

The Sunshine State had 10,207 people hospitalized with confirmed COVID-19 cases, according to data reported to the U.S. Department of Health & Human Services.
https://www.foxnews.com/health/flori...spitalizations

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ahhh good ole Gov Death Sentence

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Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn

Yeah, so I guess my sister-in-law thinks "chinese herbs" will protect her.
Like, what the fuck?

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One of my college friends has gone off the deep end and is saying the same thing on social media lately. "If you're worried about the Delta variant, boost your immune system with natural herbs!"

Tennessee GOP rep who rejected masks now says COVID-19 is real and dangerous after his 8-month battle with the virus

https://www.insider.com/tennessee-go...riously-2021-8

GOP Rep. David Byrd is urging people to take COVID-19 seriously and get vaccinated after his eight-month struggle with the coronavirus, in which he was hospitalized and put on a ventilator for 55 days.

“Up until this point in my life, I've been pretty healthy and active. Foolishly, I believed this virus only seriously affected people who are at high risk”

Byrd said that the virus took over his lungs with "lightning speed" and that he got pneumonia. He was placed on a ventilator in the intensive-care unit, and his family faced the possibility of a funeral, he said.

"I got sicker and sicker, and more and more anxious," he said. "Every breath was pure agony."

When his lungs got better, his liver started to fail.

Overall, he spent eight months in the hospital and a rehabilitation facility.

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So I guess we just need to patiently wait for every anti-masker anti-vaxxer “this is all just media hype” “I know better - I’ve done my research” self taught geniuses to get fucked up by covid - then they’ll change their tune.

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Originally Posted by MultiVerse

Why are people such suckers for SEO optimization? Is it because people only read the headlines?

Obviously, antivax social media accounts are having a field day with these kinds of unforced errors (RJ and others have been running with variations for a while now). Not only was this the main topic of discussion over the weekend, but if people posting these articles would actually read the stories and think about them, scores of clickbait headlines wouldn't be so terrible because the article actually says your arguments are bullshit:

"Still, the C.D.C.’s figures show that the vaccines are highly effective in preventing serious illness, hospitalization and death in vaccinated people, experts said.

“Overall, Delta is the troubling variant we already knew it was,” said John Moore, a virologist at Weill Cornell Medicine in New York. “But the sky isn’t falling and vaccination still protects strongly against the worse outcomes.”"

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I'd go a step further and say that the eye-catching "similar viral loads" vaxed/unvaxed is a genuine nothing--a totally predictable example of selection bias, and an intentional one.

Obviously people who test positive should be expected to have a very similar viral load (at that moment) whether they were vaccinated or not. Because the test itself is just a qualitative version of the quantitative test that checks viral load. Give two tests that measure the same thing and get the same result: not shocking.

I'm guessing the crux many people missed is that, statistically, a PCR is effectively a viral load test: give enough people the test and while their individual loads will vary, those who have enough to test positive will have a similar average regardless of most other factors (as long as you don't also pre-select by hospitalization or something that creates a bias toward convalescence etc.) There's a failure to understand the stats, much like OG's point about type II errors, but in this case the stats people should have been consulted before the press release.

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Originally Posted by JaytaeMoney

One of my college friends has gone off the deep end and is saying the same thing on social media lately. "If you're worried about the Delta variant, boost your immune system with natural herbs!"

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Buddy of mine who along with is wife are both massage therapist/non vaxxers says people need to improve their metabolic health and is dismayed that it's not part of the conversation around Covid.

Can't argue it's not an issue, just not exactly a short term solution to a mutating virus with shit like Lollapalooza and Sturgis going on.

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Originally Posted by k2skier112

Why are so many Republicans refusing vaccination? Because Russia is telling them to | COMMENTARY
https://www.baltimoresun.com/opinion...ifm-story.html

Among those with something to gain is the Russian government, which is diligently working to undermine confidence in the vaccines as part of its goal of destabilizing American society. It has been spreading misinformation for years on a host of other virus-related topics, including flu and Ebola. From there, it’s a short hop to having their message amplified by conspiracy-embracing, right-wing media, whether witting or not, and by the soulless churn of algorithms on social media.

And it doesn’t take many people amplifying a false message to have an outsized effect. According to a recent PBS story, 65% of the anti-vaccine propaganda on Twitter was due to just 12 people, some of whom are profiting from the creation of bogus skepticism through the promotion of alternative treatments and cures.

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In the old days they dropped leaflets from airplanes

Logic? We don't need no stinking logic. What I hear them saying is "We need to deflect away from our own responsibility to sleep at night".

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Originally Posted by JaytaeMoney

One of my college friends has gone off the deep end and is saying the same thing on social media lately. "If you're worried about the Delta variant, boost your immune system with natural herbs!"

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Thing is, and this is where our CDC loses credibility, this was a perfect time to reeducate and or inform the public on what healthy living is, but they didn't say shit.

78% of the COVID hospitalizations in the US were obese folk. This virus isn't hospitalizing the healthy.

Just very suprised that there was zero national conversation about trying to live a health(ier) lifestyle.

Now the conversation is "losing the COVID 15" lol we are doomed.

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Originally Posted by Asspen

Thing is, and this is where our CDC loses credibility, this was a perfect time to reeducate and or inform the public on what healthy living is, but they didn't say shit.

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The CDC has had a long history of calling out obesity, smoking, heavy drinking, etc. It's just that covid is contagious.

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78% of the COVID hospitalizations in the US were obese folk. This virus isn't hospitalizing the healthy.

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So the other 22% don't count?

Makes no sense to me. See Revs post.

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Just very suprised that there was zero national conversation about trying to live a health(ier) lifestyle.

Now the conversation is "losing the COVID 15" lol we are doomed.

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Reiterate my comments.

https://www.cdc.gov/cdctv/diseaseand...-epidemic.html

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Originally Posted by JaytaeMoney

One of my college friends has gone off the deep end and is saying the same thing on social media lately. "If you're worried about the Delta variant, boost your immune system with natural herbs!"

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Response:

https://media.giphy.com/media/CoB1VA7w5cAjC/giphy.gif

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Originally Posted by bennymac

<snip>

“Up until this point in my life, I've been pretty healthy and active. Foolishly, I believed this virus only seriously affected people who are at high risk”

Byrd said that the virus took over his lungs with "lightning speed" and that he got pneumonia. He was placed on a ventilator in the intensive-care unit, and his family faced the possibility of a funeral, he said.

"I got sicker and sicker, and more and more anxious," he said. "Every breath was pure agony."

When his lungs got better, his liver started to fail.

Overall, he spent eight months in the hospital and a rehabilitation facility.

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https://media.giphy.com/media/USnfWe...X0aY/giphy.gif

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Originally Posted by old_newguy

We are really reaping the last 40 years of “rugged individualism”, anti-intellectual and “fear the government” rhetoric.

Rev absolutely nailed it. Especially the anti-science race to the bottom.

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Yeah because there has been a real rise in "rugged individualism" in the last 40 years?!?

Oh, they aren’t, they just think they are their own little special island.

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Originally Posted by neufox47

People didn’t want to mask in 1918 either. I don’t think anyone is arguing that generation is weak. https://crosscut.com/2020/07/mask-wa...8-flu-pandemic

When I first read about the mask resistance (this was probably 2013). I remember thinking, “well at least we won’t have to deal with THAT if there’s a pandemic. People aren’t that stupid / ignorant now”. Boy was I wrong.

Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

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They didn't work in 1918 either.

The committee also found, however, that the evidence “as to beneficial results consequent on the enforced wearing of masks by the entire population at all times was contradictory,” and thus the committee did not recommend “the widespread adoption of this practice.”
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1362453/

“The case against the mask as a measure of compulsory application for the control of epidemics appears to be complete.”
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?...iew=1up&seq=16

“It is safe to say that the face mask as used was a failure.”
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?...=242&skin=2021

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Originally Posted by Asspen

78% of the COVID hospitalizations in the US were obese folk. This virus isn't hospitalizing the healthy.
.

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Roughly 1/2 of adult Americans are obese. You can wish away that this isn't our population demographics, but this is the challenge we are presented with.