To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

Can it be ruled out? How?

My dad died at ucla med center last year in their icu. His initial microclots were thought to be from DVT related to a surgery. The microclots observed 2 months later at the time he was in the icu recovering for a different surgery (tee gone wrong) could not be traced back to DVT, but after multiple weeks of diagnostics, they were still unable to dx the source of the clots. They were not able to rule out a previous (mild) covid infection as the reason for the clots (he had been vaxed when he had a known infection a year earlier).

Sorry about your father. His case was complicated by hospitalization and prior recent surgery. Honestly in a case like his, discussing it on the internet is largely impossible because it is highly nuanced (history, labs, etc).

In the case of non-hospital associated seemingly unprovoked DVT, these happen somewhat infrequently and it’s not typically associated with recent Covid. Data suggests 5:10,000 DVT incidence in general ambulatory non hospitalized patients. 40-50% unprovoked/idiopathic. Incidence in ambulatory non hospitalized recent COVID patients is 0.1-0.3% in general population. Same study .02-.025% annual incidence in population not having COVID. So yes, COVID increases risk, but baseline risk remains nominal.




Fowkes FJ, Price JF, Fowkes FG. Incidence of diagnosed deep vein thrombosis in the general population: systematic review. Eur J Vasc Endovasc Surg. 2003 Jan;25(1):1-5. doi: 10.1053/ejvs.2002.1778. PMID: 12525804.

Fang MC, Reynolds K, Tabada GH, Prasad PA, Sung SH, Parks AL, Garcia E, Portugal C, Fan D, Pai AP, Go AS. Assessment of the Risk of Venous Thromboembolism in Nonhospitalized Patients With COVID-19. JAMA Netw Open. 2023 Mar 1;6(3):e232338. doi:

Not just covid but really, any condition that promotes a state of excess inflammation. Pneumo, flu, strep staph, ebv, cmv, and covid too. Diabetes, smoking, et cetra.

Even DVT/PE creates continued prothrombotic state. So yeah, discussion of DVT risk is highly nuanced.

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Originally Posted by The Nuclear Option

. More concerning is your haste and error in proclaimed medical expertise. Expert Halo much?

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More concerning than your offhand dismisal of 3 decades experience treating acutely sick patients with an up-to-date medical expertise, becaus you read a single study and dislike your family members political leanings? Jump to conclusions much?

People who blame long covid for all ills that happen after a covid infection are as bad as the people who blame the vaccine for all ills post jab. The odds are MUCH,MUCH greater that the reason you are sick is because of factors unrelated to covid, or the covid vaccine. There may be increased risk from a covid infection, and there may be increased risk from the vaccine, but the VAST, VAST, VAST majority of people who get either see no real ill effects long term. Personally, i get a flu shot and covid shot every fall... its quick, easy and if it cuts my risk of getting a bad flu or covid by 50% its a big win... We all likely do shit on the daily that poses far more risk to our personal health than the jab or the a case of covid as a healthy/fit person. If you are not a healthy fit person, then yes covid may poses serious short and long term risks... but so do the reasons you are not healthy/fit. Less jumping to conclusions and casting dismissive blame and more compassion is needed.

We as a society are missing out on a HUGE opportunity to examine in a sober, scientific manner, how our response to covid worked and failed. This will be vital for the next time we encounter a scary new virus with pandemic potential... but instead it seems like everyone has just picked a side and ridigly adheres to a black/white view instead of seeing nuance and gray. It is absolutely wild to me that a report has not been comissioned by the WHO, or US Gov that systematically examines covid policies from around the world and analyzes how the succeded/failed, why, and in what situations they may/may not be appropriate in the future. For as MASSIVE of a worldwide black swan event covid was, there has been jack-shit for follow up on how to proceed if something similar where to happen again. Really disheartening.

Trackhead et al are right.There is a logical fallacy here: just because the risk of DVT/PE is increased in Covid does not mean that every case of DVT/PE is due to Covid. At this point just about everyone in the US has had covid or the vacc or both. If we accept the logical fallacy--going forward all DVT/PE are due to covid or the vacc. Except that plenty of people had DVT/PE before covid and the vacc existed.

I thought the broad brushstroke estimate rate of long covid was six percent of those infected. That’s a lot of people.
Here’s the who report from this past Feb

https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-s...il/post-covid-[emoji637][emoji[emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]][emoji640][emoji6[emoji640][emoji637]]]-condition-(long-covid)


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That link doesnt link. I find it really hard to believe that 6% number, unless they have a really low bar for what long-covid is (IMO). 1 out of every 16 people is suffering from long covid? What is their definition of long-covid?

Why would you not believe that

No logical fallacy. No one asserted that all DVT cases were Covid related. That is in effect a strawman argument.

Honestly, it concerns me that you guys are the great doctors ready to save us as you conflate things, argue that sources quoted say something different than they due our of arrogant laziness, and de facto execute on a strawman basis.
IMO your biggest weakness IS your experience and expertise.

^^^Seems like i should know way more people with long covid to fit that rate... so i want to know what the definition of long covid is that applies to that 6% number. Do you know?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Nuclear Option

No logical fallacy. No one asserted that all DVT cases were Covid related. That is in effect a strawman argument. Honestly, it concerns me that you guys are the great doctors ready to save us as you conflate things, argue that sources quoted say something different than they due our of arrogant laziness, and de facto execute on a strawman basis. IMO your biggest weakness IS your experience and expertise.

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But that's exactly what your first post implied, that you suspected your uncles dvt and pes were due to covid, even though as far as you know he didnt have it and you admitted you didnt know the details of his case, although you did accuse your family of a cover up. Paranoia and conspiracy theories are not limited to the MAGA world.
Criticizing the medical community for its arrogance (justified) and for its expertise and experience (not so much) is how you wind up as Sec of HHS

Trying that link from Tapatalk

https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-s...n-(long-covid)

Article is titled
Post COVID-19 condition (long COVID)
WHO twenty-six February of this year.

I’m sure there are other and more nuanced articles from the putrino lab team, the lab at Yale, etc. I didn’t dig.

58 yr old male in ICU secondary to massive saddle emboli, right heart failure with cardiac arrest with ROSC achieved, successful catheter directed thrombectomy. Morning echo shows persistent, severe right ventricular hypokinesis, severe tricuspid regurgitation, PAWP < 10, RAP 20, CI < 2. He remains unresponsive secondary to cardiac arrest/hypoxic ischemic encephalopathy. Is requiring moderate dose levophed for persistent hypoperfusion secondary to right heart failure.

Assessment/Plan:
58 yr old male, probably Republican, probably not covid vaccinated in ICU secondary to massive/catastrophic saddle emboli. Given his political affiliation, likely not vaccinated, PE likely due to Covid. Therefore no further hematologist work up or other differentials considered. Hematology consult not necessary.

Wean pressors/vent as tolerated, continue heparin. Consider ECMO for deterioration.

With all due respect, imagine if this was a real note with consideration giving to political affiliation. You’d be in deep trouble rather quickly. Maybe unemployed.

Politics has destroyed trust in healthcare. It’s unfortunate.

For those who don't read the link. In that summary, Long Covid includes a wide range of symptoms that appear within a few months following infection and last for at least a few months. Many of the symptoms are the sort of thing I would not know someone suffered from. Many are also the sort of symptom I wouldn't associate with infection. E.g. If I had trouble sleeping, I wouldn't think it was due to an earlier infection. It seems reasonable that 6% get a long Covid symptom, many of their friends don't know, and many do not know themselves. The number 6% is also a summary number that varies widely across the studies that link summarizes.

I certainly know of plenty of people who have or had long-covid. I could be convinced the true percentage is higher or lower than 6% and that would fit my observations, accounting for all the unknown biases of first person observation. 1%? yeah, maybe I'm too focused on the cases I'm aware of. 20%? yeah, maybe many people get the minor symptoms and they don't notice or just don't talk about it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Trackhead

Politics has destroyed trust in healthcare. It&rsquo;s unfortunate.

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QFT.

And they are currently working on destroying what is left in the trust in science in general.

Silly me, I currently have a blood clot and I have been posting about it for over 2 months in Gimp Central. Hardly anyone other than Old Goat and body whomper have responded in that thread.

Turns out all the blood clot experts on TRG are hanging out in this thread.

As buttuh would say, laps all you fucking beaters.


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All the unprovoked blood clotting experts are in the hematology offices, the rest work in ortho. We are all infectious disease specialists here, and dentists, obviously.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Harry

Silly me, I currently have a blood clot and I have been posting about it for over 2 months in Gimp Central. Hardly anyone other than Old Goat and body whomper have responded in that thread.

Turns out all the blood clot experts on TRG are hanging out in this thread.

As buttuh would say, laps all you fucking beaters.


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I almost commented on your post today in regards to that as your post therewas right after this one was bumped lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

^^^Seems like i should know way more people with long covid to fit that rate... so i want to know what the definition of long covid is that applies to that 6% number. Do you know?

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I had long covid. Camped out in my lungs for 2 months. 62yo and I had 4 jabs. I took 3 tests all were +. My wife and FIL both got it within 1.5 weeks each

I had long Covid.
Sick for 9 months.
No vaccine available for the first 3 months.
I was prioritized for the first vaccine.
It helped.
It didn't completely get rid of my symptoms.
I had Delta.
My doctor always questions me now on if it changed me.
It did change me.
Anyways, I got another booster yesterday.
Had friends just come back from Texas with Covid last week.
It's getting busy again.
The new booster will be out in August.



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Dueling letters:
Montana State political science professor Paul Lachapelle and retired University of Montana dean James Burchfield;Climate science is essential to our democracy, May 30) will be pleased to know net greenhouse gas emissions fell 11% in 2020, the last year of President Trumps administration, while falling two-tenth of 1 percent during 2024, the last year of President Bidens administration, according to the Rhodium Group.

These numbers obviously do not tell the entire picture but perhaps professors Lachapelle and Burchfield could invite the jet-set duo of Al Gore and Sen. Bernie Sanders to help me interpret the numbers over the past eight years.

Sean Oliver Belgrade

And

In response to Sean Oliver,( Greenhouse gas emissions fell more under Trump than Biden, June 3).

Yes greenhouse emissions did decrease during the last year of the Trump administration and by a very large amount, one never seen during the Biden term.

There was a global pandemic and most industrial activities as well as vehicle use was drastically curtailed.

COVID ... it was in the newspapers.






Thanks for the research.

TWINS--you clearly have lost your vision to the right.

Twins, sorry to read that. I have two close friends that continue to suffer. One cognitive and one has debilitating neuro problems in one leg. The cognitive one is from late 2020.

The leg one is unclear if it’s actually related to Covid, but it’s not been ruled out and symptom onset was shortly after an infection. They have access to one of the better med teams in NorCal. Goat probably knows their father.

Here you go, nerds!

Ischaemic endothelial necroptosis induces haemolysis and COVID-19 angiopathy

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-025-09076-x