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“You don’t know how to have a conversation. Discussing the studies and data that I am demanding is the lowest form of debate.”
“I’m positive the data has never been released.”
“I’ve never looked for the data.”
“Everyone disputing me is just scared.”
JFC.
Ego, thats what you're going with? Wow. ok just wow. They lost a lot of money, it wasn't ego.
Ok well some of those things are maybes but they ARE frausters and liars. LIke that is their legal track record. Every governemnt hasn't gone along with it, its their past legal history that they have admitted to deliberatly defrauding and misleading people int he past. I wouldn't say the point is to poison people, but rather scare and steal from them.Quote:
Originally Posted by toast2266
I get it though. You trust them. I'm not sure why they have earned your trust, but you do you. I think we're at an impasse as I dont think stats or logic will convince you distrust is a rational default setting for those who want to make money off you. Good day to you sir.
You really think that pfizer showed no data to any government agency, and that those agencies approved the used of these drugs with no data?Quote:
Originally Posted by leroy jenkins
Seriously?
Ok, I mean you're saying that, but we don't know, because they won't release the controlled trial data. Thats why we do trials because when you use the whole world as your experiment, stats can show correlation but not causation, and you cannot be sure your data is correct. Its too big of a sample size. My dad died of heart failure two weeks after getting the vaccine and of course was not counted as a vaccine death because that cant be proved because there is no control group to measure that incidence against. god this is basic stats. Its why there are control groups. I can't say the vax had anything to do with his death, but this is why we have controlled studies.Quote:
Originally Posted by ml242
The good thing right now is that the restrictions are being lifted in Canada.
I don't think I've fully trusted authorities on anything, ever. There are people who I trust much less than authorities though, especially when it comes to anything related to health care/medicine.
^ Sorry to hear about your dad.
The best part of this is that most of the conspiracy stuff being posted here today is likely coming from sources that similarly have a large financial incentive to keep peoples eyeballs engaged to sell ads.
https://www.bmj.com/content/bmj/376/bmj.o102.full.pdf
Looks like the Pfizer data will be released in 2025. Moderna 2022.
Pandemic is over. Why people still care if someone is vaccinated or not is beyond me. The data for kids to get vaccinated has always been questionable. Under 5 really questionable. Supposedly to stop the spread, when the vaccine wasn’t effective at that, there should have been a hard look at it. If you’re older or unhealthy it was stupid not to get vaccinated. But it’s stupid to smoke, drink, and be fat too. And that kills a lot more than covid. Shits over, time to stop the stupid rules and masks. Open the borders, time to start living.
Yeah I understand how that works. So do health care professionals and that's why they did what they did to prevent that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asspen
Many more people would have died of the virus and even more would have died of something treatable because there would be no space in the hospitals.
Way to show your true colors.
Thank you. I had seen that, but honestly it just drags me the fuck down to be reduced to a link fetcher. I don't feel like putting energy into people who cannot have a discourse.Quote:
Originally Posted by teletech
Yea, I embraced my social responsibility and distanced while being unsure about the vaccine. I am still unsure about it, and its been years and blacklisting people from society for the forseeable future is rediculous when the economy and our social order are both struggling. I haven't been anti vax, I've been hesitant, but at this point it just seems like we can just move on and like perhaps not fighting each other might be more important but what do I know. I honestly do not get the anger at people who don't trust the shots, it seems like a very black and white thinking either you are trusting science or you're a crazy conspiracy theorist when it reality the science just seems murky and most importantly unkown.
RE: India
https://news.yahoo.com/india-govt-wo..._YG9J2ilsdjWLj
The Indian government has also declined to meet the U.S. companies' requests for legal protection over any side-effects from the use of their shots, which are currently made only in the United States or Europe, two of the sources said.
No company has received such protection in India.
"The government will not buy Pfizer and Moderna vaccines. They are free to have private tie-ups after necessary regulatory clearances. But sovereign indemnity is clearly something we can't give".
This article indicates that Pfizer wouldn't receive blanket immunity from India, so they took their ball and went home, in the middle of a pandemic. LOL
Skipping out on billions in profits because their feet would be held to the fire like any other manufacturer? Thats what the good guys do? Someone jump in and carry the water for good guy Pfizer here.
Suicides rose during this. Violent crime, tickets for speeding, traffic accidents, even tickets for driving without a seatbelt. Of course substance issues and overdose deaths. Hard to even find all the categories to collate and arrive at an accurate sum total. The thing is I get the pandemic is scary etc, but to hear people talk in support of how its been handled is so strange to me and feels like they are trying to convince themselves. Don't get why its hard to just have a nuanced conversation. Everything being so black and white seems very strange for a situation that is absolutly anything but.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shorty_J
A friend working in the ICU cares a lot, and for their sake I care to.Quote:
Originally Posted by teletech
What variable factored into that risk assessment that would loom larger than the money they lost? yes. that is the question. Not to mention that their actions inspire mistrust of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asspen
I'm sorry your friend works to help people in a predatory system and is overhwelemd and overworked. We should do something about that. Certain things need to be protected from capitalism to have a free society I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by ski_it
VICP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asspen
They want to get back to helping people recover from heart surgery, hip replacements and other such ailments...getting a bit tired of the same old for the past 2 years....As you say, if only there is was a way to do something about that...Quote:
Originally Posted by leroy jenkins
My wife works in the hospital. Been getting a $500 extra per shift. They have averaged 2 covid patients a day for the last month or so. And one of those patients got covid at the hospital and is still there because they don’t have a bed for her at a nursing home. Why because they fired the LNA’s who would work for $12 wiping someone’s ass, who already got covid the first round and survived. Also a ton of patients that let their ailments go, because they were afraid of covid at the hospital or the hospital was closed. The mismanagement of covid definitely caused as much if not more issues than the actual disease.
I don’t feel bad for my wife, she’s happy to get the extra money. Being a healthcare worker is hard, covid or no covid.
True colors?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shorty_J
You called us stupid, then followed up with arguably the dumbest statement/question in all 111 pages of this thread which showed a clear lack of understanding of the basic principle of how viruses spread through a population.
But yes, keep interpreting scientific data and its effects on public health policy for the rest of us.
Attachment 406048
The variable you're looking for is excess production capacity. Super simple decision if you don't have that, even simpler if the price in other places is higher than India. Maybe they should invest in more capacity, but that would be a pretty nuanced discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by leroy jenkins
Speaking of which, do you believe there are studies showing that lockdowns didn't reduce deaths? And if so, which trusted source told you to believe that?
Yea if there were a jonas salk today, someone trustworhy giving away their vaccine for free with the efficacy trasnaparacny and side effect rate of the polio vaccine thatd be fucking awesome.Quote:
Originally Posted by ski_it
Your simplification of the situation tugs at the heartstrings of course, but the vaccines are not the variable that will fix her job at this point. this is endemic and not because of the unvaxxed, Theres solid data showing natural immunity is higher than the vaxxed.
Again, the people who controlled the way this was handled are the people that made money off it and while probably not just pure poison, the approach was far from perfect, and more transparancy to begin with could have shown us that.The people who made money off the lockdowns are the same ones making money off her employment and ultimatly setting her salary and earnings expectancy which dictates how well staffed hospitals are. She can direct her anger at the unvaxxed. I'm sure if we'd all just gotten in line the data would be clear. Oh wait. No control group then.
Funny you should mention them, since they've given it to India specifically. Polio takes 4 shots, by the way.Quote:
Originally Posted by leroy jenkins
Clearly there are downsides to lockdowns and social distancing measures. I don't think anyone's arguing that there aren't. There are also benefits - reducing covid deaths. And there is absolutely a worthwhile discussion to be had as to where the appropriate balance of that dynamic is. And, of course, that discussion will change as the threat of covid changes and the negatives associated with masking and social distancing measures become more pronounced. It seems like a majority these days favor eliminating or at least heavily relaxing most social distancing measures.Quote:
Originally Posted by leroy jenkins
But the vaccine is different. There are clearly upsides, and there's no discernible downside. You can fearmonger and fret about conspiracies all you want, but at the end of the day, billions of people are vaccinated without any noteworthy downside.
I honestly don't know why I keep engaging with people who think like you do, but for some reason I keep trying in hopes I can reach someone.Quote:
Originally Posted by leroy jenkins
I'm arguing with the way you think as much as your specific conclusions. And the reason I'm doing that is that people who know more than me (and you) on this subject have assured me that these measures are better for me an all of society than doing nothing. I'm not coercing you, I'm trying to explain to you why your thinking is flawed.
https://www.britannica.com/science/D...-Kruger-effect
You find it easier to believe that every government is cahoots to control you than the believe than the educated opinions of people who are actually knowledgeable on the subject... not internet knowledgeable... like, PhD knowledgeable.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Occams-razor
You say people who get vaccinated are afraid but your irrational thinking pattern sounds much more scared than I am. It's completely irrational and it's like you WANT to believe you are being persecuted and the entire world has conspired to do this. The possibility of that being true and nobody who is in on the scam letting it slip out is literally zero.
Summary: "You don't know everything and not everybody is out to get you."
If you can't accept that universal truth then I give up.
Leroy - Huge assumption on my part: since you think the management of the pandemic is “far from perfect” and that vaccines should not be administered due to the reasons you have previous cited can you outline what a “perfect” or nearly perfect or even a better response would look like?
I’m frankly not interested in hearing about what is “wrong” but rather what should have been done. I understand your position and actually agree with you on the negative effects of some of the mitigation measures.