Canada Closed until US Gets Covid 19 Under Control

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Originally Posted by rideit

C’mon, guys, get it together and open by August, I really want wifey and kiddo to go away for two weeks, as much as I love them.

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Canada IS getting it together. The USA is not, however, and that's the problem.

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Originally Posted by paulster2626

Canada IS getting it together. The USA is not, however, and that's the problem.

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CBC reported we are actually passed 50% as of yesterday

Toronto area is %60 adults fully vaccinated!

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Originally Posted by danmelon

CBC reported we are actually passed 50% as of yesterday

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Both are correct. CBC reporting 50% of eligible population. This chart covers total population.

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Originally Posted by paulster2626

Canada IS getting it together. The USA is not, however, and that's the problem.

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That's the thing... they don't have to let in the idiots who won't get vaccinated. Just the smart ones.

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Originally Posted by Thaleia

Toronto area is %60 adults fully vaccinated!

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I have to say Ontario has really stepped up it's game after so many prior COVID fumbles.

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Originally Posted by smmokan

That's the thing... they don't have to let in the idiots who won't get vaccinated. Just the smart ones.

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Agreed. Seems kind of absurd to bar people who HAVE been vaxxed because they're around people who aren't. You do that you're never going to be able to let anyone in. The important thing is to get Canadians fully vaxxed, and that seems to be happening.

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Originally Posted by paulster2626

Canada IS getting it together. The USA is not, however, and that's the problem.

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What I don't get about Canada's position is not how it relates to the US, but how it relates to the rest of the world. Is Canada going to keep their doors closed to the rest of the world for the next five years, maybe forever? When do you think Brazil or India is going to reach a vaccination threshold that you deem acceptable? Sure, you can keep your country closed off for a year or two but at some point, you have to get real. And Canada may reach, say, 80%, of the population fully vaccinated but you'll never reach heard immunity because if the virus is still circulating somewhere on earth, it is still circulating in Canada.

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Originally Posted by altasnob

What I don't get about Canada's position is not how it relates to the US, but how it relates to the rest of the world. Is Canada going to keep their doors closed to the rest of the world for the next five years, maybe forever? When do you think Brazil or India is going to reach a vaccination threshold that you deem acceptable? Sure, you can keep your country closed off for a year or two but at some point, you have to get real. And Canada may reach, say, 80%, of the population fully vaccinated but you'll never reach heard immunity because if the virus is still circulating somewhere on earth, it is still circulating in Canada.

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As I understand it, once the Canadian population is protected (e.g.: 75% of population fully vaccinated), then the border will open. I think the 75% fully vaxxed rate is less likely to lead to unmanageable stress on the healthcare system even if there is COVID still circulating among the population. People might get COVID and might get sick, but you won't have 1000s showing up in ERs and ICUs all at once.

I dont think its a US centric policy. Its a combo of enough of the pop. dbl vaxxed as well as a wait and see how this variant uptick will affect things. The variant is surging in euro countries. The concern with the US is their disorganization

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Maybe dominion could add that to the voting lists and co ordinate that. Thatd also keep the hillbillies from registering or visiting, both ours and your hillbillies

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Originally Posted by grinch

The concern with the US is their disorganization

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Actually I don't see disorganization in the U.S. right now. Things are organized. There's just a significant portion of the population that doesn't want to get vaccinated (and the areas where this is more prevalent are the areas being hit hard by the delta variant now--go figure).

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Originally Posted by The AD

Actually I don't see disorganization in the U.S. right now. Things are organized. There's just a significant portion of the population that doesn't want to get vaccinated (and the areas where this is more prevalent are the areas being hit hard by the delta variant now--go figure).

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Not all disorganised but enough states that dont have adequate vax record keeping. Its been mentioned in this thread numerous times. Scouts honour doesnt work when it comes to int'l borders

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Originally Posted by grinch

Not all disorganised but enough states that dont have adequate vax record keeping.

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That's not true. As I understand it, vaccination records in the US, whether its for COVID or anything else, are maintained by each counties' health department (just like birth and death certificates). This is true regardless of whether the person who got the COVID vax got a stupid paper CDC vax card or not (so when people say their CDC card is blank, that doesn't mean their name isn't in the county health department database). So there is no centralized national database, or even state database, but there is accurate record keeping.

The US has HIPAA (the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act) which is a law that controls the dissemination of people's health records and puts stringent controls on that. For instance, any agency or business can't email health records without complying with security laws. Not sure if Canada has a similar law, but I imagine so. This is a good law but it makes creating state and national databases of health records, and sharing those records, more difficult. If Canada's trusts the US criminal databases to turn away DUI convicts I don't see why Canada should have any concern relying on US counties' health department databases to determine who is vaxed or not.

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Originally Posted by altasnob

What I don't get about Canada's position is not how it relates to the US, but how it relates to the rest of the world. Is Canada going to keep their doors closed to the rest of the world for the next five years, maybe forever? When do you think Brazil or India is going to reach a vaccination threshold that you deem acceptable? Sure, you can keep your country closed off for a year or two but at some point, you have to get real. And Canada may reach, say, 80%, of the population fully vaccinated but you'll never reach heard immunity because if the virus is still circulating somewhere on earth, it is still circulating in Canada.

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No, but you need to understand the precarious position that our healthcare system is in. It's publicly funded, so subject to constant cuts and budget increases that don't match the population increase, and this means that during a typical flu season the system is pretty much running at capacity, and in some cases over capacity. You throw this COVID bullshit at it, and it totally gets all fucked up. Apparently we're somethign like 3.5 years behind in elective surgeries now.

With the delta variant that does have the ability to fuck up a country (we can see this in other places right now), the Canadian govts need to be very careful as to when they fully open things back up. There'll be no going back once they do, so they gotta get it right the first time. With Canada essentially at the forefront of vaccinations now, we're the test subject for effectiveness. There is theoretically an exact date when the border can safely be opened. I don't think you'd be able to find a single Canadian who would say it's worth being on the "too soon" side of that line vs. the "too late" one.

Once vaccines are proven to kick delta's ass in Canada, we're good. End of the month, maybe a week or two later. That's my guess.

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Originally Posted by paulster2626

Once vaccines are proven to kick delta's ass in Canada, we're good. End of the month, maybe a week or two later. That's my guess.

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My guess: Trudeau will time the border reopening with an election announcement, so late Sept. border opening and election call for a late Oct election.

Ya, but even when Canada is at 80% fully vaccinated there will still always be 20% not vaccinated. And when the day comes that Canada lets Americans in, and Brazilians, Indians, Africans, they will bring the detla and variant de jour and there will be deaths and your health care system will be strapped. That day is coming. When, who knows, but it will happen. I look at it as a choice. Keep the border closed for the rest of time and eliminate all death. Or face the music, let the virus run rampant through those who don't want to get vaxed and unfortunately, those who can't get vaxed, and deem the deaths that follow as an acceptable risk (this is basically how the US, and most of the Western World, is looking at the situation right now).

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Originally Posted by paulster2626

Once vaccines are proven to kick delta's ass in Canada, we're good. End of the month, maybe a week or two later. That's my guess.

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Because the virus is always trying to mutate, there will be deadlier strains after Delta. So the best any country can do is try and get to 75% vaccinated and then go on with life. We should be wearing masks in public until this shit is gone = forever. So I am hopeful policy makers will see that reality and open once Canada hits 75%.

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Originally Posted by altasnob

That's not true. As I understand it, vaccination records in the US, whether its for COVID or anything else, are maintained by each counties' health department (just like birth and death certificates).

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i certainly never heard objections about the legitimacy of any president’s birth certificate.

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Originally Posted by ml242

i certainly never heard objections about the legitimacy of any president’s birth certificate.

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Canada trusts the US criminal records. The whole reason Canada doesn't let DUI guy in is because they think he's going to get sloshed and mow down a kid. The US criminal records and various databases are not 100% accurate, and yet Canada relies on these to keep Canadians safe. There will always be things falling through the cracks. I have several friends with DUIs (some multiple) who go with me to Canada and get in no problem because Canada doesn't know about their DUIs.

I am remembering the DUI thing actualy came about after 911 becuz of Canada jumping thru some hoops that the USA wanted ?

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Originally Posted by ml242

i certainly never heard objections about the legitimacy of any president’s birth certificate.

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Fuck off with lungbleach's bullshit. He spent years (and claims to have spent millions) trying to prove his racist BS, and came up with the exact same amount of evidence as his current big lie.

https://allcleared.com/blog/common-m...da-with-a-dui/

its in here ^^ and there is probably more to it, sound like you could be turned away flying or driving

" Since 9/11, the US and Canada have been sharing a lot of information about their residents, and your DUI is likely to show up when your passport is scanned or your name is entered at the border crossing "

Ya, that just says Canada and US are sharing more data with each other. It doesn't say the data from the US is 100% accurate. It's all data entry. Court clerks fuck up all the time and one error can snowball. Old DUIs especially. DUIs are particularly complicated because they are classified as a more serious offense in Canada (we Americans liked to get fucked up and drive, it's our pastime). And Canada's DUI laws are not exactly the same as US DUI laws. So for instance, a WA DUI gets you banned from Canada but if you get your DUI reduced to Negligent driving 1st, you are ok. If you get it amended to Reckless Driving, you are most likely not ok, but it can depend on the boarder guard's mood (I recommend you strike up a conversation about the local hockey team).

The point being, pretending the US's vaccination record system is grounds to exclude Americans is ludicrous to me because Canada relies on the US's criminal conviction record keeping. It's a straw man argument.

" Technically, driving under the influence (DUI), driving while intoxicated (DWI), and similar charges are criminal offences in Canada, which means that even if your record was a misdemeanor in the US, you might be deemed to have committed a criminal offence in Canada. "


never mind that its white American terrorists killing all the Americans It was the USA who wanted the info sharing so they could catch muslim terrorists apres 911

which also caught all them criminals with a DUI

what part of criminal don't you understand ?

you also find the whole border being closed for a year thing to be ludicrous but its still closed and so now it will be closed to " criminals " who are unvaxed

You can enter Canada if you are charged with a WA DUI (gross misdemeanor) that is amended down to Negligent Driving 1st (a misdemeanor), which is very common on your first offense in WA. Both charges are "criminal." So the point being, there are US criminal convictions out there that Canada does not use to exclude entry. This is all based on Canada's immigration laws. There's probably a BC court case on the subject. Washington's Negligent Driving 1st, despite being a criminal conviction, is ok, because the elements of that offense do not match any criminal charge in Canada. The elements of Neg Dr 1 are "driving in a negligent manor while exhibiting the effects of consuming alcohol or drugs. Negligent means failure to use ordinary care." Note, that you don't have to be drunk or even "appreciably affected" as is the case of DUI, just "exhibiting the effects." So like odor of alcohol on your breath is enough. That would not be a crime in Canada so Canada says come on in my friend.

My understanding is that as much of it has to do with the penalty. If your penalty (sentence, remuneration, whatever) would have satisfied Canada law as well, then you're good to go.

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Originally Posted by powdork

Fuck off with lungbleach's bullshit. He spent years (and claims to have spent millions) trying to prove his racist BS, and came up with the exact same amount of evidence as his current big lie.

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I think you misunderstand my point. It is precisely because the record keeping is neither good or consistent that he was enabled (in part) to continue making his outlandish statements.

With regard to covid vaccination, despite AltaSnob's thought that we can take counties at their word, it's hard to believe that it would work out well for us (citizens who want to travel, Canadians that want to be sure people are vaxxed before coming, etc) because the same problems in recordkeeping from decades ago are still a problem today (covid vaccines, guns, etc).

If it wasn't a problem, states wouldn't have spent millions trying to address it (like with the NYS app, among others).

This is a pro and con for people in general (a large hack is less likely to expose sensitive information than with a centralized database) but illuminates the different problem of verifying information.

If the records were accessible and uniform, we would never have heard about a market for fake cards... the criminality proves the point. Whether it matters to Canada or not after they're 75% vaxxed, is up to them.

Has anything meaningful been done to address these shortcomings since this was published?

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/a...system/618891/

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Originally Posted by altasnob

Ya, but even when Canada is at 80% fully vaccinated there will still always be 20% not vaccinated. And when the day comes that Canada lets Americans in, and Brazilians, Indians, Africans, they will bring the detla and variant de jour and there will be deaths and your health care system will be strapped. That day is coming. When, who knows, but it will happen. I look at it as a choice. Keep the border closed for the rest of time and eliminate all death. Or face the music, let the virus run rampant through those who don't want to get vaxed and unfortunately, those who can't get vaxed, and deem the deaths that follow as an acceptable risk (this is basically how the US, and most of the Western World, is looking at the situation right now).

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At 80% they believe further infections will no longer strain the healthcare system. There is no current method to keep any variant out of Canada - they'll all get here one way or another with or without tourism.

We know COVID old and new will always be around, they just need to make sure that we've got the current one under enough control that the inevitable spike in the fall won't matter. Many Canadians are also kinda giving the USA a time-out anyway for the last 4 years of bullshit so lots of us aren't in any hurry to head south. Some are, of course, but many aren't.

Lots of poorly educated Canadian nationalists it seems.

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Originally Posted by paulster2626

At 80% they believe further infections will no longer strain the healthcare system. There is no current method to keep any variant out of Canada - they'll all get here one way or another with or without tourism.

We know COVID old and new will always be around, they just need to make sure that we've got the current one under enough control that the inevitable spike in the fall won't matter. Many Canadians are also kinda giving the USA a time-out anyway for the last 4 years of bullshit so lots of us aren't in any hurry to head south. Some are, of course, but many aren't.

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there is also that thing where people dying kind of sucks

and yeah a time out after 4 years of the Trump bulshit,

his mishandling of COVID didnt do anything for America's rep

no need to let people in just cuz they want to come ... freedumb stops at the 49th eh

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Originally Posted by XXX-er

there is also that thing where people dying kind of sucks

and yeah a time out after 4 years of the Trump bulshit,

his mishandling of COVID didnt do anything for America's rep

no need to let people in just cuz they want to come ... freedumb stops at the 49th eh

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It makes me chuckle to see that only conservative politicians get lambasted by the left wing media for failing to keep the coronavirus out of their borders. Lots of examples of progressive world leaders and countries that didn't fare any better, but for some reason it remains a closed minded persons talking point.

OK so name the examples ?

Nobody is keeping Covid out at this point but Canada wants to get 2 shots into 75% of the population

Trump failed to do anything but lie to the American public,

which is probably why he lost assuming you believe he lost

so far America has won the Death race altho Brazil is coming on strong

pretty strong showing by 2 conservatives coming in 1st and 2nd eh

You guys dont watch "border security" ? With dui you are no bueno based on how high you blow. If it was below our .08 youre ok to enter. Above , go back home.

Also @altaS it was mentioned in the threadcabout some nurse showing up at a kids b day party and distributing the excess vaxes she had. Mass. has said they dodnt keep a lot of the vax records or dont/didnt have a system in place to register the shots online. Until weakbased shows up and says the msm lied im going with that mass. Story as legit

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Originally Posted by Asspen

It makes me chuckle to see that only conservative politicians get lambasted by the left wing media for failing to keep the coronavirus out of their borders. Lots of examples of progressive world leaders and countries that didn't fare any better, but for some reason it remains a closed minded persons talking point.

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You are correct
New York State 53,000 deaths
Is that Trumps fault, or Cuomos?

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Originally Posted by waxman

You are correct
New York State 53,000 deaths
Is that Trumps fault, or Cuomos?

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both

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Originally Posted by XXX-er

there is also that thing where people dying kind of sucks

and yeah a time out after 4 years of the Trump bulshit,

his mishandling of COVID didnt do anything for America's rep

no need to let people in just cuz they want to come

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True, but I'm not sure how much sense keeping people out because of who our president was last year makes much sense, either.

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Originally Posted by XXX-er

OK so name the examples ?

Nobody is keeping Covid out at this point but Canada wants to get 2 shots into 75% of the population

Trump failed to do anything but lie to the American public,

which is probably why he lost assuming you believe he lost

so far America has won the Death race altho Brazil is coming on strong

pretty strong showing by 2 conservatives coming in 1st and 2nd eh

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You literally have 150+ countries to choose from...

Will you fellow canucks please teach this man a simple lesson in statistics, and more importantly how to read and interpret a data set. All i got out him is that he can count from 1-n.

Death Race LOLOL. Number of deaths relative to population is the metric you are looking for, but based on your earlier responses you like to just count.

I love how people are throwing around this arbitrary 75% number now fed to you by the Canadian gov't and media.

We don't know what percentage we need for herd immunity yet. Herd immunity can be reached anywhere from 75%-95% based on the R-naught value of the virus in question. We do know this this virus is more contagious than other known viruses which would indicate a higher percentage needed than your magical 75% number (closer to 95% needed like measles which has an r value of 12-18). Add in breakthrough cases after vaccination, and the magic 75% percent number is still closer to 65%. Again. Statistics. Science.

Be prepared to close the borders for a LONNNG time because this virus and the eventual variants aren't going away any time soon.

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Originally Posted by Asspen

It makes me chuckle to see that only conservative politicians get lambasted by the left wing media for failing to keep the coronavirus out of their borders. Lots of examples of progressive world leaders and countries that didn't fare any better, but for some reason it remains a closed minded persons talking point.

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Says Mr. Magahat.
Trump failed miserably with regard to Covid. Miserably. Nothing you say, or anything any progressive leaders did, will change that fact. Stop playing 'whatabout'.

75 million people listened to him, there are probably more people in America who didnt vax on political principle than there are in Canada

So here we got 45 pages of

let us in ?

no you suck

we don't really ?

yeah you do so we are going to get 75% of our country vaccinated before you get let in and if you aren't vaxed it will be a long time more than that