Canada Closed until US Gets Covid 19 Under Control

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Originally Posted by leroy jenkins

Release the trial data. Then we will talk. That is not unreasonable. Am I wrong?

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If you're asking if you're in the wrong thread, yes, you're wrong. If you're asking if you're wrong because your inability to find publicly available data means your Google-foo sucks, also yes. Demonstrate your ability to search for the right thread and then we'll talk.


Am I reading it right that Canada is going to let Canadians take quicker tests but not non-Canadians? Any further word on that?

We've lost one trip over delayed results, so hoping this policy gets updated.

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Originally Posted by leroy jenkins

Release the trial data. Then we will talk. That is not unreasonable. Am I wrong? That isn't some sort of selfish individualism. Its halfway decent science, that these companies have fought like fucking hell to avoid. Doing so has created more hesitancy and reduced trust in them, while, if their products are as good as they say, it would benefit them to do just the opposite and go with transparancy. Can you come up with a reason why they won't share trial data? And you still want to suck their dick?

When you start your argument by thinking the people you're talking to are idiots and wrong, it doesn't really get you very far. If you cannot conceptualize someone disagreeing with you for any other reason than they are somehow philisophically imature, then you yourself need to broaden your perspective.

Arguing with the weakest version of your opponents ideas or perspective is a sign of insecurity in ones own ideas. Arguing with the strongest version and actually respecting someone elses viewpoints and seeing why they would disagree with you a sign of strength.

Play armchair shrink/philosopher all you want, I'm known for that myself, but the reality is this is not a mobilization of fully tested drugs. This is a global trial of expeirimental drugs they won't share trial data about.

I get the things you fearful vax people say. You simplify it to the point its just rona scary vax reduce scary rona. Ok ya you got a point. Theres a lot more to it than that, and its not all just about the vax. When I hear people still mad at vaccine hestiant or regretful, it just seems like a bizzare place to put your energy these days, as it wont end the pandemic, just seems like someone to get angry and blame so you don't have to face the reality all the bullshit we've been through related to the handling of this pandemic has done more harm than good, unless you're one of a handful of billionares that vastly expanded their wealth during this.

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I expect that most us lack the education,experience, and information to properly evaluate the risk:benefits of the public health measures being implemented. I therefore, like in so many other domains, follow the advice of those that we’ve entrusted to do soon our behalf, people like the public health officer of our Province, my doctor, and various widely acknowledged experts in the fields of public health and epidemiology.

The people within my social network who are loudly and stridently anti vaccination, have always been and remain the reality adjacent alternative health care practitioners and the poorly educated paranoid conspiracy theorists. I’ve maintained my compassion, but watched their confirmation biases drag them further and further into martyrdom.

My carpenter and Wildland firefighter friends are also asking for the “missing trial data”, I just wonder what they would do with it, or if there’s even the slightest chance it could change their minds.

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Originally Posted by leroy jenkins

Release the trial data.

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If we were still at the beginning of the vaccination campaign, you'd maybe have something to go on. But we're not. We're over a year into it, and almost 5 billion people have been vaccinated without any noteworthy negative effects. The trials are fairly irrelevant at this point.

“Respect my opinion and perspective!”
“Stop stereotyping me!”
“Suck a dick if you won’t comply with my demand!”
“I won’t have a discussion until I get my one magic piece of information.”
“You are afraid!”

Ok dude.

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Originally Posted by jono

If you're asking if you're in the wrong thread, yes, you're wrong. If you're asking if you're wrong because your inability to find publicly available data means your Google-foo sucks, also yes. Demonstrate your ability to search for the right thread and then we'll talk.


Am I reading it right that Canada is going to let Canadians take quicker tests but not non-Canadians? Any further word on that?

We've lost one trip over delayed results, so hoping this policy gets updated.

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That's the way it sounds. Read several articles on this and almost all of them mentioned "vaccinated Canadian travelers" specifically. A few mentioned uncertainty on other international travelers. One from Forbes seemed to indicate all travelers but I think it was just a bad copypasta/conflating things. Seems there will be an announcement this week but nothing concrete yet.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/pcr...nada-1.6347334

https://www.travelmarketreport.com/R...lly-Vaccinated

https://www.forbes.com/sites/suzanne...ted-travelers/

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Originally Posted by goldenshowers

Invermere/pano is the second home to many Albertans with similar thoughts on freedom and misunderstandings regarding the Charter. How can you not be tainted by being immersed in that?

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Yup, those (mostly vaccinated) O&G Calgarians with vacation homes are definitely the reason the interior hillbillies are so backwards. Stupidity runs deeps and doesn't have a fixed address.

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Originally Posted by shafty85

Your proof that the measures taken have done more harm than good is... where?

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HERE! The articles are starting to trickle out. Don't expect them to stop, but rather ramp up. A true assessment of what our "measures" did to our economy, mental health, and our children's health is still years away.

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/10/covi...eneration.html

https://medicalxpress.com/news/2022-...rs-mental.html

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/su...cid=uxbndlbing

As someone said dismissively earlier in this thread, a simple google search would give you some answers.

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Originally Posted by shafty85

Your proof that the measures taken have done more harm than good is... where?

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I shouldn't have to prove that. I know I made that statement, but if thats the only point you can respond to out of everything I've said that is sad. There are so much more important things, such as the trial data. My piont of the lockdowns doing more harm than good can be debated, but i admit that point would be moot if we had the trial data. They should have to prove all the draconian shit they do is worth is. Masks and lockdowns hardly reduced death rates, increased suicide, isolated, hurt the economy etc etc. There are studies. We could debate them ad nauseum but there isn't even context for weighing those against efficacy rates as long as they keep the trial data secret. And your only response is to nitpick one single not central point I made while ignoring the truly important ones. Why won't they show the trial data? We woun't be having this conversation if they would.

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Originally Posted by toast2266

If we were still at the beginning of the vaccination campaign, you'd maybe have something to go on. But we're not. We're over a year into it, and almost 5 billion people have been vaccinated without any noteworthy negative effects. The trials are fairly irrelevant at this point.

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OK, but medicatiosn have controlled trials for a reason. There is no morally justifiable reason to keep the trail data secret. Can you think of one? Trying to invalidate things I say isn't the same as actually coming up with a reason THEY are doing what they are doing. Go ahead and trust fraudsters and proven liars. Go ahead and focus your attention on how stupid and paranoid your fellow citizens are. I can tell you are emotionally unable to even consider or conceptualize of anything other than being angry and condescending towards those you don't agree with.

Saying we don't need controlled trials is stupid and not science.


The biggest thing is, I shoudn't have to prove shit, as I am not trying to invade anyone elses body, but merely be left alone. You want mandates you get the trial data shown and a reasonable amount of transparancy. That burden isn't on me, you're just asking for obedience and to trust the untrustworthy. Your data mostly seems to be an emotional dislike of those who disagree with you and thinking they are stupid. Again, stupid people create the weakest version of the ideological opponents in their own head. Strong people who are secure in their ideas are capable of actually seeing that people that disagree with them have valid points. I see your valid points are that rona is scary and you want the government ot save you and you trust known liars and fraudsters. I get your fear. You don't seem to have much else going on.

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Originally Posted by leroy jenkins

I shouldn't have to prove that.


They should have to prove.

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Wow.

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Originally Posted by leroy jenkins

OK, but medicatiosn have controlled trials for a reason. There is no morally justifiable reason to keep the trail data secret. Can you think of one? Trying to invalidate things I say isn't the same as actually coming up with a reason THEY are doing what they are doing. Go ahead and trust fraudsters and proven liars.

Saying we don't need controlled trials is stupid and not science.

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Have you tried requesting the data from Pfizer yet?

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Originally Posted by Peyto

Yup, those (mostly vaccinated) O&G Calgarians with vacation homes are definitely the reason the interior hillbillies are so backwards. Stupidity runs deeps and doesn't have a fixed address.

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Agreed. Lots of BC residents are anti vaxxers

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Originally Posted by oldnew_guy

Have you tried requesting the data from Pfizer yet?

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Me personally? No. The fda, who, and plenty others, yes. India made it a condition of buying the vaccine and pfizer pulled out, losing a HUGE amount of money from one of the worlds most populous contries.

Again, this is your reply? This is the best you can come up with? Don't you pharma flufllers ever wonder about any of these things? LIke seriously, why wouldn't they release the trial data and be willing to lose that much money to hide it? Why would they lose money to hide it? Something in the trial data would lose them more money than they just lost by pulling out of hte india sale or they wouldn't do itt. You guys seem unabable to sit with the emotional reality of asking those questions. Ok, keep doubling down on obedience telling yourself its critical thinking

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Originally Posted by oldnew_guy

Wow.

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Haha, wow? Like its sane to you one dude on the internet should have the burden of proof on these lockdowns? The burden of proof is on the state.

You guys suck at arguing. You attack ancillary points because you have nothing to say to the main ones, and you can't even attack them, just say things like wow. Logos game is weak.

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Originally Posted by leroy jenkins

I shouldn't have to prove that. I know I made that statement, but if thats the only point you can respond to out of everything I've said that is sad. There are so much more important things, such as the trial data. My piont of the lockdowns doing more harm than good can be debated, but i admit that point would be moot if we had the trial data. They should have to prove all the draconian shit they do is worth is. Masks and lockdowns hardly reduced death rates, increased suicide, isolated, hurt the economy etc etc. There are studies. We could debate them ad nauseum but there isn't even context for weighing those against efficacy rates as long as they keep the trial data secret. And your only response is to nitpick one single not central point I made while ignoring the truly important ones. Why won't they show the trial data? We woun't be having this conversation if they would.

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I agree there are knock-on effects of lockdowns and there should be a reckoning of that some time, but where the hell to you get the conclusion that masks and lockdowns didn't reduce death rates?

In every wave we had here in Alberta, when the premier enacted new public heath measures (usually a few weeks to late), 3 weeks after that date the infection and hospitalization numbers drop drastically. How is that not working exactly?

You keep asking for the trial data and it has been mentioned that we have a sample size of hundreds of millions who have taken the shot and therefore this data is meaningless.

If you think the results of these vaccinations are not effective or dangerous but public health professionals in your state/province are keeping that to themselves and telling people to keep getting the shot anyway, that is paranoid and irrational and have likely already made your mind up and "trail data" wouldn't do anything for you.

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Originally Posted by leroy jenkins

OK, but medicatiosn have controlled trials for a reason. There is no morally justifiable reason to keep the trail data secret. Can you think of one? Trying to invalidate things I say isn't the same as actually coming up with a reason THEY are doing what they are doing. Go ahead and trust fraudsters and proven liars. Go ahead and focus your attention on how stupid and paranoid your fellow citizens are. I can tell you are emotionally unable to even consider or conceptualize of anything other than being angry and condescending towards those you don't agree with.

Saying we don't need controlled trials is stupid and not science.

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Sure, I guess. I don't personally care about seeing the trial data, but I don't take issue with you wanting to see it. But like I said, at this point in the process, refusing to get vaccinated because you haven't seen the trial data doesn't make any sense. Your position implies that if the trial data showed no issues, you'd get vaccinated. Well, we've had a 5 billion person trial with no issues. That's pretty strong data.

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Originally Posted by leroy jenkins

Haha, wow? Like its sane to you one dude on the internet should have the burden of proof on these lockdowns? The burden of proof is on the state.

You guys suck at arguing. You attack ancillary points because you have nothing to say to the main ones, and you can't even attack them, just say things like wow. Logos game is weak.

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Yeah, I guess asking you to back up your claims is to much.

You keep assigning me to a particular group of people making what you seem to think is a particular argument about how things should be, despite having only challenged your statements, which you refuse to back up with anything other than hand waving and demands to see others proof for their arguments (which I’m not making, but you seem to think I’m making) while not doing the same.

If the Pfizer data was so important to you and you were able to parse it, you would have gone to their publicly available data portal and requested it.

Why are you mischaracterizing the Pfizer/India situating? My understanding is that Pfizer explicitly wanted to provide their US based trial data to India and INDIA said it wasn’t enough and they needed local trials.

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Originally Posted by toast2266

Sure, I guess. I don't personally care about seeing the trial data, but I don't take issue with you wanting to see it. But like I said, at this point in the process, refusing to get vaccinated because you haven't seen the trial data doesn't make any sense. Your position implies that if the trial data showed no issues, you'd get vaccinated. Well, we've had a 5 billion person trial with no issues. That's pretty strong data.

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There have been issues. We don't know the rates because we can't see the trial data. Thats why there is trial data, and a control group, so we can study the ratesof those things. It makes perfect sense to want be be informed in order to consent. Not wanting that just makes you trusting known frausters and liars. That seems insane to me.

My position is the fact they won't show the data and are willing to lose huge sums of money to hide it is a red flag. One you can't explain. You just say it doesn't make sense not to trust because hey its probably fine. This is the definition of complacency. I don't see how it doesn't make sense to want to be informed before consenting? The list of products released to the public and used for years that later have been found to be poisonous is fucking huge. Huge enough it feels sureal to even have to mention.

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Originally Posted by leroy jenkins

OK, but medicatiosn have controlled trials for a reason. There is no morally justifiable reason to keep the trail data secret. Can you think of one? Trying to invalidate things I say isn't the same as actually coming up with a reason THEY are doing what they are doing. Go ahead and trust fraudsters and proven liars. Go ahead and focus your attention on how stupid and paranoid your fellow citizens are. I can tell you are emotionally unable to even consider or conceptualize of anything other than being angry and condescending towards those you don't agree with.

Saying we don't need controlled trials is stupid and not science.


The biggest thing is, I shoudn't have to prove shit, as I am not trying to invade anyone elses body, but merely be left alone. You want mandates you get the trial data shown and a reasonable amount of transparancy. That burden isn't on me, you're just asking for obedience and to trust the untrustworthy. Your data mostly seems to be an emotional dislike of those who disagree with you and thinking they are stupid. Again, stupid people create the weakest version of the ideological opponents in their own head. Strong people who are secure in their ideas are capable of actually seeing that people that disagree with them have valid points. I see your valid points are that rona is scary and you want the government ot save you and you trust known liars and fraudsters. I get your fear. You don't seem to have much else going on.

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Nice... your calling him stupid because he's creating a "weakest version" of you, and then tell him his valid points are that he is scared and wants to believe liars. Such a strong person you are... not hypocritical at all.

I don't care what you believe about what was effective and what wasn't. With omicron and high vaxx rates all you're getting with the shot is protection for yourself. So you do you going forward, and get a medic alert bracelet (or maybe a face tattoo) saying you refuse treatment for covid going forward.

What absolutely terrifies me is people trying to act like they know something the rest of us don't and this belief that some grand force is out to get them. I doubt there has been any time in human history when just about every world power has agreed on anything, but most of them agree that masks and vaccines and lockdowns were all effective in reducing illness and death due to covid. A lot of those powers still don't even like each other but generally agree those measures worked. What would their motivation for this be, in your opinion?

And you think this is somehow a massive conspiracy theory against you? That sounds like a delusional persecution complex.

I trust trained experts because I don't have time to be an expert on everything. You probably do that a lot as well, usually. If you had to find your own oil and gas, do you think you could do it by reading a few articles on the internet and think you know better, or do you defer to the knowledge of people like me trained in geophysics who know how to find it for you?

I actually think that most (or all) of the mandates should start to be rolled back, and I do believe you can't force someone to do something to their body they don't want.

The thing that scares me is the death of truth because people don't understand the Dunning-Kruger effect, and what that means for society going forward.

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Originally Posted by oldnew_guy

Yeah, I guess asking you to back up your claims is to much.

You keep assigning me to a particular group of people making what you seem to think is a particular argument about how things should be, despite having only challenged your statements, which you refuse to back up with anything other than hand waving and demands to see others proof for their arguments (which I’m not making, but you seem to think I’m making) while not doing the same.

If the Pfizer data was so important to you and you were able to parse it, you would have gone to their publicly available data portal and requested it.

Why are you mischaracterizing the Pfizer/India situating? My understanding is that Pfizer explicitly wanted to provide their US based trial data to India and INDIA said it wasn’t enough and they needed local trials.

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I don't want to parse the data you moron. Its a red flag they won't show ANYONE.

ZThere are plenty of studies out there showing masks and lockdowns reduced death rates by less than one percent. Lobbing studies at each other is a low form of conversation, and resorting to "well prove it" is indicative of not actually being able to conversate.

My understanding is these companies have shown NO ONE the trial data. Including the fda and who.

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Originally Posted by Shorty_J

Nice... your calling him stupid because he's creating a "weakest version" of you, and then tell him his valid points are that he is scared and wants to believe liars. Such a strong person you are... not hypocritical at all.

I don't care what you believe about what was effective and what wasn't. With omicron and high vaxx rates all you're getting with the shot is protection for yourself. So you do you going forward, and get a medic alert bracelet (or maybe a face tattoo) saying you refuse treatment for covid going forward.

What absolutely terrifies me is people trying to act like they know something the rest of us don't and this belief that some grand force is out to get them. I doubt there has been any time in human history when just about every world power has agreed on anything, but most of them agree that masks and vaccines and lockdowns were all effective in reducing illness and death due to covid. A lot of those powers still don't even like each other but generally agree those measures worked. What would their motivation for this be, in your opinion?

And you think this is somehow a massive conspiracy theory against you? That sounds like a delusional persecution complex.

I trust trained experts because I don't have time to be an expert on everything. You probably do that a lot as well, usually. If you had to find your own oil and gas, do you think you could do it by reading a few articles on the internet and think you know better, or do you defer to the knowledge of people like me trained in geophysics who know how to find it for you?

I actually think that most (or all) of the mandates should start to be rolled back, and I do believe you can't force someone to do something to their body they don't want.

The thing that scares me is the death of truth because people don't understand the Dunning-Kruger effect, and what that means for society going forward.

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What valid points? That he is scared and the vaccines have some efficacy. I'm not sure what other points anyone is making other than trying to tell me to prove stats. I get you guys are scared and the shots do seem to have some efficacy. I'm honestly not sure what other valid points are being made. Please do point them out to me?

If you beleive people shouldn't be forced to take these expeiriemtnal drugs, why are you arguing with me? Seriously? Just bevcause I disagree with you about other things and you're bothered by my backwardws thinking or hyposcracy or however you perceive it? LIke it seems like if you doj't beleive in coercing people to do things and blacklisting them from society for not feeling good about this, the conversation doesn't really have to go much further, because that detail seems like the most important point in all of this.

Yes, there are many powers in the world that vie for control while agreeing with each other that a more authoritarian world is what they want. I agree with you about that. I worry about the death of truth coming more from the criminalization and stigmatization of dissent which is absolutly going on. There will always be ignorant people that think they aren't. That doesn't scare me as much as them being manipulated and turned against each other, but ok, yea I get you fear your fellows and their ignorance more than the global trend towards authoritarianism.

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Originally Posted by leroy jenkins

Me personally? No. The fda, who, and plenty others, yes. India made it a condition of buying the vaccine and pfizer pulled out, losing a HUGE amount of money from one of the worlds most populous contries.

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I don't think any of us know exactly why Pfizer pulled out of India. It looks like ego to me though.

- the Indian government asked them to trial it locally, after approving two other shots without that.
- the shots they had approved were AZ (without those trials) + a homegrown (and that those drugs are much cheaper than Pfizer and don't have the same cold storage requirements)

AZ is the most deadly vaccine of all and it's killed like 30 of 1.5 billion people?

Anyway, take your conspiracies elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by leroy jenkins

There have been issues. We don't know the rates because we can't see the trial data. Thats why there is trial data, and a control group, so we can study the ratesof those things. It makes perfect sense to want be be informed in order to consent. Not wanting that just makes you trusting known frausters and liars. That seems insane to me.

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All issues I've seen have been thoroughly tracked by the CDC and 100's of other health organizations around the world. And they're all nominal.

But you're right. Maybe they're all fraudsters and liars. Maybe it's a giant global conspiracy where literally every single government, and every single health organization got together and universally agreed to defraud the entire population of the planet. Maybe those governments and organizations succeeded in getting the hundreds of thousands of people that were in on the fraud to keep quiet about it. And maybe there's some rational reason why every government on the planet would go along with a conspiracy to poison its entire population.

But it seems a lot more likely that there isn't any issue with the vaccine and there's no rational reason to decline it.

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Originally Posted by Shorty_J

In every wave we had here in Alberta, when the premier enacted new public heath measures (usually a few weeks to late), 3 weeks after that date the infection and hospitalization numbers drop drastically. How is that not working exactly?

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Ever consider that the virus burns through a population, but then hits a wall as it runs out of viable hosts, masks and mandates be damned?

We aren't here to argue over Virology 101 with you, but it is comical that you're out here calling us the stupid ones.

“You don’t know how to have a conversation. Discussing the studies and data that I am demanding is the lowest form of debate.”

“I’m positive the data has never been released.”

“I’ve never looked for the data.”

“Everyone disputing me is just scared.”


JFC.