I swear 10 years ago in MT. I was taught to use the 91degree svst guide for general side edge shop work….But I just started back and I’m being told 89 degree….
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I swear 10 years ago in MT. I was taught to use the 91degree svst guide for general side edge shop work….But I just started back and I’m being told 89 degree….
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You're just getting confused by the naming convention of the tool manufacturer.
The important thing here is you're looking for a 1 degree edge bevel.
SVST calls this a 91 degree tool because the tool itself is manufactured with a 91 degree angle to cut the 1 degree edge bevel.
http://svst.com/pebs_1_500.jpg
Other manufacturers might call the same tool an 89 degree tool, because the bevel it cuts on the edge is going to be 89 degrees from the base.
They're the same thing. Edges that bevel outwards make no sense, don't exist, and 89 and 91 degree tools accomplish the same thing - cutting a 1 degree edge bevel.
^^^ this ^^^ it's just a reference point for an edge angle that varies anywhere from 90 degrees, to an accute one (89, 88, 87).Quote:
Originally Posted by adrenalated
So, they might refer to the SAME angle as 91, 92, 93, or 1, 2 3.
... Thom
Perfect. I was pulling my hair out.
Good shredding..!!!
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The more important question might be why the heck anyone is suggesting a 1 degree bevel (or an 89 or 91, however you want to measure it). With the one-degree base bevel I'd expect on any non-race ski, that would only bring the total angle back to 90'. I'd strongly recommend two degrees for general use (and a three degree on a hard-snow-specific ski). Some people just go to three degrees on everything because it makes life simpler, but I haven't made that leap yet.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CjESTrlWsAAKR9Z.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by adrenalated
Found the east coaster :DQuote:
Originally Posted by anotherVTskibum
Moment, ON3P, and Praxis all come stock with 1/1. Most people ride them that way. FWIW I have set mine to 2/1 and have a pair of SL skis at 3/.75. It's not uncommon for people to only use 1/1 though.
Evo has an edge bevel guide with manufacturer's recommended side and base bevels. I don't know why so many shops just do all skis 1 and 1, seems lazy to me or maybe they are afraid of people getting hurt if their edges are sharp?
https://www.evo.com/guides/ski-edge-...waAhvMEALw_wcB
On all of my skis, I set a base bevel of 1 degree and 3 degrees on the side wall. Then de-tune tips / tails as needed.
all my knowldege comes from youtube...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNzve8w2S0E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxOTdT55HNY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0F0ZDkxALLg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdgshStMh0A
and i watched several other videos
it is interesting to hear the different options of finetuning the tuning
it is all the same but each guy on youtube show things a lil different with their reasoning
i guess it is alot of trying and going back to the workshop and trying again.
what i have learned from those videos. a 90degree edge will be longer sharp then a 87degree
like a blunt knife will stay blunt and a sharp knife gets blunt
so all skies on 89 will be less tuning then in the long run
but if you race on man made snow sharpening edges is mandatory.
so then it is what is your feel and what is your ski if you go 89 or 87
also is the diamond finish important your me for one run or two runs
trial and error
Yeah good post. 3 dulls/chips/burrs more quickly IME. My skinny (78) skis came 1/3 so I left them there. The only bevel guide I have is an 87 thus far because yes they dull quicker and since they are for low tide, sharp is pretty nice. Not sure it makes a huge difference for a beater like me, I’m not sure I could really tell between 1 and three because I haven’t experimented. Sharp is nice on the firm though.Quote:
Originally Posted by nordekette
The others are 1/1 and maybe because less work is usually needed for one reason or another, I’ve gotten by freehanding those so far after an initial shop tune. Cue the Coombs video.
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I always thought a 3/1 bevel was a 3 side, 1 base (3/1 = 3 on 1).
Do I have that correct?
Also curious if there is any real difference between whether you’re putting the 3 on the side or base, always thought the higher angle bevel went on the side?
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Best two tuning videos I’ve found:
https://youtu.be/a2MGvdHWZ2s
https://youtu.be/3V2Id9QHBLA
Higher angle always goes on the side edge.
Remember the 1 degree side is measured from the flat base NOT from the base bevel.
3 degree base and 1 degree side would result in an edge with a greater than 90 degree corner (92 degrees to be exact) and would ski absolutely awful. Very slow to engage with very little grip. A 1 degree base and 3 degree edge yields an edge corner that is 88 degrees (sharper than 90). 1/1 yields a square 90 degree edge.
Base bevels are usually right around 1 degree. Could go down to 0.5 on something like a slalom race ski, and up to 1.5 for a DH race ski or a soft snow ski. Would be very rare to get outside that 0.5 to 1.5 degree range.Quote:
Originally Posted by east or bust
Side edge bevels typically range from 1-3 degrees, and up to 5 degrees in extreme cases, like a WC slalom ski.
Side bevel angle is always going to be greater than or equal to base edge bevel angle.
Ohhh i learned somethingQuote:
Originally Posted by adrenalated
So i cannot grind 1.5 base and 89 side angle.
Damm thought i had this thing dialed...
Trial and error : )
Willi used to do a "tuning tour", caught a free clinic from him in person a couple times when I was heavy into the race dad thing.
Mostly don't mess with the base bevel with files after the initial base bevel is set, start low ~0.5 or 1.0 and touch it up with a diamond stone/ higher grit stones as needed. It's really easy to over bevel the base edge and then the only thing that brings it back is a full grind.
You can mix and match any base and side edge angles you want, no one’s going to stop you. But I don’t think anyone will ever recommend using a combination of side/base bevels that put an actual angle of more than 90 degrees on the edge. (1.5 base/89 side would put your actual edge angle at 90.5 degrees)Quote:
Originally Posted by nordekette
Edit: I like the way the Swix guy talks about choosing base and side angles in the video above. He suggests considering their functions separately, and don’t worry at all about their combined angle. Base edge bevel is going to affect responsiveness (lower angle bevel - more responsive, higher bevel angle - less responsive). Side edge bevel is going to affect edge hold/power (lower angle is less powerful, higher angle is more powerful). Choose and adjust your angles to achieve your desired outcome.
At the shop I used to work at, I would do a lot of the hand tunes for the local race kids. I got used to finishing passes with diamond stones. I still do it on mine. Pretty sure (100%) I can't feel a difference in how they ski but it does score me an extra beer's worth of time fucking around at my waxing bench so worth it. Not everything has to be for a real purpose.
On anything I don't specifically use for hard snow, I follow factory tunes with bevels which seems to be 1/1. I go 2/1 on my beer leagues and carvers.
Anything over 1 degree on the base will make the ski damn near impossible to edge. It would effective be like skiing on a base with a convex base. So yes, the higher bevel always goes on the side. Think of it this way. The side bevel is what you actually cut the snow with. the base bevel is just to keep the slower steel edge from riding in the snow. The base bevel also helps with turn initiation. Ive seen it done .5 degree tip/ tail and 1 underfoot as well, but thats too much work IMOP unless you are racing at the very top levels.Quote:
Originally Posted by east or bust
It is a good idea to periodically test a ski base with a tru bar or verified straight edge.
Attachment 395930
Tilt the true bar on edge, then place on the base (I left it flat here so I could take a pic, as I only have two hands), then shine a flash light at it from behind, If you get any significant light showing between the bar and a the base, then you need a base grind. As a ski wears, or (most likely gets over tuned) the base material near the edges start to wear down.
This is good advice. Less is more on the base bevel. Set it, and leave it, unless you need to fix a major impact, but then you need a base grind anyways.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mofro261
The point of diamond files and stones, is really to polish the edge, not sharpen it. When you are polishing the edge you are actually work hardening the steel. IMOP its a bit pointless unless you do a full range of grits to get the benefit out of it. Otherwise you are just cleaning up the roughness left from the files.Quote:
Originally Posted by Conundrum
Attachment 395934
Whenever I set a new edge bevel I do the full range of diamond files, starting with 120, then 220 and finally 400 and 600 to work harden the edges. Then I typically just touch the edges up as needed with 400 and 600 grits. If I am skiing a ski a lot in hard snow, then I will refile. I own a lot of skis, and dont ski hard snow that often anymore, so I typically set the edges on all of my skis at the beginning of the season and then just maintain with diamond files. Having two identical edge bevelers makes quick work of using the diamonds. I dont use stones very much anymore after investing in the diamond files. I am sure the WC guys have there reasons, but I dont for my needs.
Most skis ship with a 1/1 bevel from the factory. Its an easy default tune for them, and its good enough for most people. A too agressive of a bevel will give most people too much trouble and they will complain about the ski being too hooky, etc.
It's also worth noting that most smaller ski companies do not invest in properly grinding a structure in the base of the ski. If you have skied one brand than another and noted that one is always faster or glides better, than its not the base material used, but its actually the base structure ground into the ski. A good shop will be setup to grind the more common structure for the types of snow you're region normally has. There is lots of different types of structures. Here in the PNW a more aggressive cross hatch seem best, where colder drier climates a more linear, and shallower structure tend to be better. The deeper cross hatch works best in wet snow as the structure helps move water molecules towards the edges and away from the center of the ski increasing glide. In colder snow a more linear and finer structure makes the ski easier to turn.
Thats my 2cents on it, based upon what I have been told / learned over the years by people more knowledgeable then me.
You crazy going to 600. I only do 120, 220, 400 following anytime a file touches the edges. Matter of habit and beer drinking. I truly can't tell a difference when I ski. I do notice my edges and bases are typically in better shape when I look at my buddies' skis in the rack.
I think with diamond stones just the process of using them and feeling the burrs polish out tells us that the ski will be smoother to ride.
Definitely can’t feel the difference on snow. Definitely can feel the difference in the shop.
Something, too, about knowing my skis are in stellar “shape” when I click in. Perhaps a placebo, but I’ll take all the help I can get.
1/1 has always been standard from-the-factory knowledge but all my skis get a 2 or 3 side bevel. Even my pow skis.
“But edges don’t matter in pow!” Then, it doesn’t hurt to have them polished, either.
I have very often considered going to a 2degree base bevel for my drifty skis, though. I understand why a carving ski would go 1degree base max. But why not a surfier base bevel on skis that are chosen because they drift?
Why is a 1degree base bevel on my renegade not challenged by people other than myself? I feel like it should have 2. But I’m scared to go that deep and then have to regrind my base material to get to flat again. That’s a lot of base to grind off if 2degrees sucks.
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I have 200/320/600/1200/8000 diamond stones. 1200 and 8000 were bought more for polishing knives, but I will use them on the skis if I’m bored and have some beer left to finish. I don’t believe I can tell any difference when I use them though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Conundrum
I think the theory with going to a more highly polished edge is not so much that it’s going to grip better, but that the more refined edge will hold up better/last longer.
Having a lower bevel at the tips and tails sounds odd to me. Almost like the opposite of detuning the tips and tails.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunder
You are correct it was late when I typed it and I reversed it.Quote:
Originally Posted by J. Barron DeJong