WTT: Billy Goat and Protest: My light versions for your heavier ones

A longshot, but I'm very patient to wait years for an offer...

I rarely reach for my Protests in my quiver, merely because I prefer heavier skis at speed---and I gotta believe there's a heavier version out there of this model.

So, if you can offer me any significantly heavier version of this ski model (see my measured weight below), then I'd like to trade, or buy, or whatever works out in the end. But I'm a cheap-ass bastard at the moment, so damaged swiss-cheesed beaters are OK, as long as they're significantly heavier than mine.

196cm Praxis Protest (I would also consider 192-196cm)
- 2308g per ski (too light for my tastes)
- Bought here used from Suprechicken, who said "Carbon Med/Stiff" 2013.
- Only ~35 days used, but Drilled 4x: DynaFit Radicals for 332 bsl at roughly +1cm, then SollyFit plates for 310 bsl at roughly +4cm (that was stupid), then SollyFit plates for 310 bsl at roughly +1cm, and currently Salomon 920 for 314 bsl at -8.3cm from TrueCenter. (Manufacturer dimple is at -9.7cm from TrueCenter, but Praxis later recommended -8.0cm.)
- 139-128-132, R=32, TrueLength=195.1cm
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UPDATE: A TRADE FOR BILLY GOATS IS NO LONGER NEEDED. 1.75 years after starting this thread, I found a heavy pair weighing 2537g per ski.
191cm ON3P Billy Goat w/RES "Standard Layup" (I will consider any non-Tour layup, length 189-193cm, w/RES)
- 2326g per ski (too light for my tastes)
- Bought here used from original owner Suprechicken, who confirmed with certainty that these are "standard layup" 2014 bought directly from ON3P, (***BUT I think maybe my year might be lighter-weight than some other years.)
- ~55 days used, Drilled 2.5x (or maybe only 2x?): Dynafit Beast 16 at 294mm bsl, FKS at 310mm bsl (plus I can't remember whether or not there's another 0.5x drilling for FKS heels only, if my 314mm boot didn't fit in the 310mm holes...can't remember). Currently mounted are FKS DIN=15 toes, DIN=12 heels, and both brake arms of 1 heel were accidentally snapped off in a table vise before mounting (but with my newly improved brake bending skills, I can custom bend my extra FKS brakes for you).
- A significant topsheet chip on one tail. One very small but deep-ish 0.2cmx2cm base scratch is not quite to the core/graphics.
- 145-118-128, R=29.2, TrueLength=191.3cm

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Truly, you have magnificent taste.

Swissiphic can probably offer a mod to add weight to those.

Vitamin needs some Supergoats!

Sell both and buy a custom set


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuse

Vitamin needs some Supergoats!

Sell both and buy a custom set


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Hah, came here to post this. The thuper Goat is more edgy than ProTest but a little looser than og Goats.

Supergoats start out at what, 2600g/ski?? My Aevers are significantly heavier than my 189 BGs. I’d guess 2700g/ski, they are almost as heavy as my Monster 108s


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Yeah, he should go stiff supers. Mount some p18’s for extra heft. Not sure how heavy Kopi_reds were that I skied, but they heavy AF on the chair. Didn’t notice the weight on the down, pure truck town.

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Originally Posted by 2FUNKY

Kopi_reds were that I skied, but they heavy AF on the chair. Didn’t notice the weight on the down, pure truck town.

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Truth.

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Originally Posted by 2FUNKY

Hah, came here to post this. The thuper Goat is more edgy than ProTest but a little looser than og Goats.

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Interesting take. I have three sets of BG’s (‘14 186, ‘18 189, and ‘18 193 SG) and the vintage in the photo is waaay looser than the current iteration IMO.

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Originally Posted by Bandit Man

Interesting take. I have three sets of BG’s (‘14 186, ‘18 189, and ‘18 193 SG) and the vintage in the photo is waaay looser than the current iteration IMO.

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Could be. I own 15/16 Goats and the supers held a better edge on groomers but once in the 2’ of pow we had that day, they felt looser than my goats. Have not skied the 189 Goat. Just basing on the two goats I have skied.

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Originally Posted by 2FUNKY

Could be. I own 15/16 Goats and the supers held a better edge on groomers but once in the 2’ of pow we had that day, they felt looser than my goats. Have not skied the 189 Goat. Just basing on the two goats I have skied.

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I probably came off as contrarian, but rather my interest is piqued by the comment. My one complaint about the SG is how much more I notice the tail. Probably some old man sloppy technique showing up, too. I’d love to experience the SG feeling “loose”. Any insight on your detune?

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Originally Posted by Bandit Man

I probably came off as contrarian, but rather my interest is piqued by the comment. My one complaint about the SG is how much more I notice the tail. Probably some old man sloppy technique showing up, too. I’d love to experience the SG feeling “loose”. Any insight on your detune?

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No worries. They weren’t mine so no idea on detune. Maybe Kopi_Red can chime in as they were his. They released really well and pivoted with ease. Giant slarves were effortless. I never noticed the tail. It was there but not THERE, if that makes sense. I did get lazy one time and the tail showed itself, didn’t do that again. If I wasn’t in complete love with the ProTest I would dump my other goats and a couple other skis and own the SG, but alas....

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Originally Posted by billyk

Swissiphic can probably offer a mod to add weight to those.

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Yeah, that could be my PlanB eventually, but I'm very patient, and prefer unmodified skis, so I can continue to chime in on ski reviews (without an invalidating custom modification).

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuse

Vitamin needs some Supergoats!...

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Does anyone know the weights of Supergoats (Regular, stiff, &/or aevergreene)?

I would love the longer length (and presumably heavier weight) of Supergoats, and for my tastes, the asymmetry is only a slight negative---but it's not gonna happen for me unless someone breaks their pair, or drills it 4x, etc. Supergoat is a new high-demand ski, but I can't justify paying high prices for high-demand skis, because with my huge quiver, no single ski in my quiver will get enough usage to justify a high price for me.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuse

Supergoats start out at what, 2600g/ski?? My Aevers are significantly heavier than my 189 BGs. I’d guess 2700g/ski, they are almost as heavy as my Monster 108s

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2700g! Now I need Supergoats someday! Yeah, my Jeffrey122 191cm 2015 is 2730g (sweet!), so I'm surprised my BillyGoat is only 2326g...but no complaints about ON3P---I'm stoked ON3P is doing their thing, their way.

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Originally Posted by Bandit Man

...Any insight on your detune?

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Side topic, but just wanted to comment: This past season I proved to myself that the difference between super-sharp edges tip-to-tail and detuned edges is definitely big enough to invalidate a ski test. Big difference to me on my BillyGoat tests. And I'd go so far as to say a Prior Overlord is "completely ruined" without detuning. Like if super-sharp and not detuned at all, it seems like there's no way a tester could even begin to imagine how good the Prior Overlord can be with a decent detune.

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Originally Posted by 2FUNKY

No worries. They weren’t mine so no idea on detune. Maybe Kopi_Red can chime in as they were his. They released really well and pivoted with ease. Giant slarves were effortless. I never noticed the tail. It was there but not THERE, if that makes sense. I did get lazy one time and the tail showed itself, didn’t do that again. If I wasn’t in complete love with the ProTest I would dump my other goats and a couple other skis and own the SG, but alas....

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I hit the tail rockered edges with a gummy stone around an inch past the contact points, other than that it was the stock tune.

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Originally Posted by Kopi_Red

I hit the tail rockered edges with a gummy stone around an inch past the contact points, other than that it was the stock tune.

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I thought it felt more like 1.5” past the contact points. [emoji16]

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Originally Posted by Vitamin I

Yeah, that could be my PlanB eventually, but I'm very patient, and prefer unmodified skis, so I can continue to chime in on ski reviews (without an invalidating custom modification).

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Sure? You can get the lead tape that they use to adjust swing weights on golf clubs 1/2” x 100” roll costs around $12 and weighs 100g. Get 10 rolls or so and you can custom dial the weight that works best. It would look a little funky, sure, but you could cover it with stickers.

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Originally Posted by 2FUNKY

No worries. They weren’t mine so no idea on detune. Maybe Kopi_Red can chime in as they were his. They released really well and pivoted with ease. Giant slarves were effortless. I never noticed the tail. It was there but not THERE, if that makes sense. I did get lazy one time and the tail showed itself, didn’t do that again. If I wasn’t in complete love with the ProTest I would dump my other goats and a couple other skis and own the SG, but alas....

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Are protests better than SGs? C&Ds are damn good skis too..

In the steep and deep, or with just a little speed, Aevers absolutely perform those giant McConkey slarves. That asym makes a big difference when releasing them in deep snow compared to my 2017 189 BGs. And they absolutely feel edgier than the 189s too. You still have to be careful not to overdrive them, or they will try and spin out, but it only takes 2-3 runs to figure out the sweet spot and you can kind of carve them a bit. It’s a cool feeling carving RES.

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Originally Posted by Vitamin I

Yeah, that could be my PlanB eventually, but I'm very patient, and prefer unmodified skis, so I can continue to chime in on ski reviews (without an invalidating custom modification).



Does anyone know the weights of Supergoats (Regular, stiff, &/or aevergreene)?

I would love the longer length (and presumably heavier weight) of Supergoats, and for my tastes, the asymmetry is only a slight negative---but it's not gonna happen for me unless someone breaks their pair, or drills it 4x, etc. Supergoat is a new high-demand ski, but I can't justify paying high prices for high-demand skis, because with my huge quiver, no single ski in my quiver will get enough usage to justify a high price for me.



2700g! Now I need Supergoats someday! Yeah, my Jeffrey122 191cm 2015 is 2730g (sweet!), so I'm surprised my BillGoat is only 2326g...but no complaints about ON3P---I'm stoked ON3P is doing their thing, their way.



Side topic, but just wanted to comment: This past season I proved to myself that the difference between super-sharp edges tip-to-tail and detuned edges is definitely big enough to invalidate a ski test. Big difference to me on my BillGoat tests. And I'd go so far as to say a Prior Overlord is "completely ruined" without detuning. Like if super-sharp and not detuned at all, it seems like there's no way a tester could even begin to imagine how good the Prior Overlord can be with a decent detune.

.

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Ya I would guess the AeverBeetlegoats are 2700ish g/ski. They float so well, no sinkage whatsoever. I was afraid the stiffer flex would hurt floatation, but it floats better even at slower speeds than my 189s.

191 BG Tours weighed 2300g/ski. That’s weird your regular 191s weigh 2326. Should be closer to 2500g/ski..

Anyone tried heavy core protests?


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I have 196 #4 flex MAP/glass layup protests. Heavy as hell. Your 196 carbons interest me. I’m 6’-1”, 190lbs and these rocked me until I figured out how bad the extremely sharp edges were hurting the ski. Detuned, skied them liked them more, detuned again,skied them, then skied them on a cat ski trip at Revelstoke, loved them. No speed limit. Hit 62mph on castle at Alta, but side stepping these pigs is painful. I find them more stable at speed than lotus 138s at 192cm...protest is first ski I’ve owned that carries so much speed in powder that I hit my limit before the ski does. Bibbys want to pull you down / touchy / require a slight toe flex up to prevent dive when mounted on the line, 138s are too short. Max comfortable speed for the bibbys in powder has been 55mph for me according to gps and somewhat stressful at that. Not the protests, holy shit. Haven’t found the top end yet, probably won’t out of self preservation.

i did have the protest tail knock me on my ass when attempting to play in chowder. This is pre detuning but spun me around so hard I slammed the tail down and have a base bubble and edge pulled slightly out on one ski - it’s on the tail tip rise so does not impact the ski.


Very stompable compared to true reverse reverse, much more stable landing platforms. Made landing a 13 footer with a torn MCL no big deal in Revie. Lotus 138 demands more attention on landing due to wheelie, Bibby 190 cannot carry as much speed but stomps as well as the protest, maybe better since it’s a bit skinnier. Currently mounted with sth16s, only set of holes. I ski tight trees with them - they are no lotus but manageable.

How is much do you weigh ? Cannot imagine you have hole space for 326mm mount?

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Originally Posted by billyk

...You can get the lead tape...

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Great idea! (I never thought of a non-permanent modification like that.) Still, I won't do that unless I just can't find any unmodified skis available out there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuse

...191 BG Tours weighed 2300g/ski. That’s weird your regular 191s weigh 2326. Should be closer to 2500g/ski...

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Yeah, I was wondering if my pair might actually be a "Tour" layup. Whenever skis change hands, it would be understandable if some of the info gets lost or "corrupted"...especially for brands that offer customizations, etc. I'm hoping somebody out there wants my lighter pair, whether it is actually a "Tour" layup or just a standard layup that happens to be as light as the Tour layup.

EDIT: The original owner, Suprechicken, confirmed with certainty that my pair is "standard layup" 2014 bought directly from ON3P, (***BUT I think maybe my year might be lighter-weight than some other years.)

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Originally Posted by wapiti hunter

I have 196 #4 flex MAP/glass layup protests. Heavy as hell. Your 196 carbons interest me.

...I slammed the tail down and have a base bubble and edge pulled slightly out on one ski - it’s on the tail tip rise so does not impact the ski.

How is much do you weigh ? Cannot imagine you have hole space for 326mm mount?

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Thanks for posting, wapiti hunter! I am DEFINITELY interested in your Protests. If you are willing to weigh your ski, then we'll know for sure if the weight difference is significant enough to make this worth pursuing further. (I can easily compare weight numbers even if bindings included.)

Anyway, what do you think is your very favorite mount position on 196 Protest? (like -8.5cm from true center, or what?)
My attitude is, on a ski as special as this, you should veto the trade unless we can fit you VERY close to your very favorite mount position. "Drilled 4x" sounds bad, but it helps that 2 of those were for SollyFit plates, whose wide hole pattern does not conflict much with non-plate hole patterns. So I'm confident your 326mm will fit at least SOMEWHERE on my ski, but I'd like to verify that you'll fit at your very favorite position.

Your tail damage does not scare me off. I can't be choosy, because my pair's 4 drillings kill its resale value (even though I've skied MANY swiss-cheesed skis without ever ripping out or snapping a ski in half). If we both approve the trade, we could always add a few bucks to either party to ensure we're both happy with the damage/drillings or whatever.

My bodyweight has been within 205-215 lbs for the past 2 years, but I'm trying for 190 lbs next winter. My 2308g pair works fine for 215 lbs skiers---my only dissatisfaction with this particular pair is the lower weight results in lower rotational inertia (i.e. lower swingweight), which results in slightly noisier rotational deflection at speed in variable snow. Not a flaw of Protest design---it's just physics that affects all ski models, and I have picky tastes.

Oh, and nice comparison reviews for Protest/Lotus138/Bibby. Thanks for that!

.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vitamin I

Does anyone know the weights of Supergoats (Regular, stiff, &/or aevergreene)?

I would love the longer length (and presumably heavier weight) of Supergoats, and for my tastes, the asymmetry is only a slight negative---but it's not gonna happen for me unless someone breaks their pair, or drills it 4x, etc. Supergoat is a new high-demand ski, but I can't justify paying high prices for high-demand skis, because with my huge quiver, no single ski in my quiver will get enough usage to justify a high price for me.



2700g! Now I need Supergoats someday! Yeah, my Jeffrey122 191cm 2015 is 2730g (sweet!), so I'm surprised my BillGoat is only 2326g...but no complaints about ON3P---I'm stoked ON3P is doing their thing, their way. .

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Honestly, if you can afford/justify it, you should consider a woodgrain topsheet with the regular 22 oz glass instead of regular topsheet w. carbon to add stiffness. Makes the ski heavier but SO damp. I bet a 1x extra carbon, woodgrain, and 22 oz glass is as stiff but smoother than an aevergoat. I haven't skied a layup as smooth, damp, powerful but not dead-feeling yet.

This is as someone who skis a 191 BG laid up that way. Not sure what they weight, though. I can try to get a weight tonight. I used to have a big quiver, but that ski kind of killed it for me. But I'm 160-165# not 200+

2x carbon On3p doesnt feel planky at 215lbs. It’s slightly beefier than Praxis #5 Heavy, which on the scale is like the old cambered mantras. It’s plenty of stiffness for speed, but not “too much”. My Aevers arent double the stiffness of my regular BGs, maybe 25 % stiffer. They feel twice as damp though. Idk how to quantify all this, but if I could..

That being said, the shape of the SGs and how they ski, leads me to believe they would work best in the 1.5x flex. Right in the middle, not too soft, nor too stiff. With a veneer topsheet, 1.5x would be a big ski I bet.

Aever is really for pro skiers, and I am not in that elite crew. They want to stomp 40 footers on the reg, but mine will never see more than 15 feet of air time. 2x carbon is a handful in moguls and super tight trees too. I’m still glad I went Aever, because they are so fast and smoothe on top of mid density pow or anything heavy and/or crusty, and on low visability days, I can run into pretty much anything, and not worry about getting bucked. The skis just absorb everything.


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The veneer just adds a dampness I haven't found in other builds. I don't think it necessarily adds weight, though, if weight in and of itself is the goal. Been a minute since I was on a non-veneer, though. Been a minute since I skied a real season, though, too. :nonono2:

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Originally Posted by auvgeek

...you should consider a woodgrain topsheet with the regular 22 oz glass instead of regular topsheet w. carbon to add stiffness...
The veneer just adds a dampness...

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuse

2x carbon On3p...Praxis #5 Heavy...Aevers...
SGs...would work best in the 1.5x flex...With a veneer topsheet, 1.5x would be a big ski I bet.

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I love reading everything you guys wrote---and all those variations of BG's & Protests sound dreamy to me, but for this trade I don't think I can be picky about precise layup & stiffness. I'm sure I'll be happy with any layup and any stiffness---as long as it's significantly heavier than mine (and as long as it doesn't require me to throw in too much extra cash to even out a lop-sided trade like for a high-demand SuperGoat). After trying many ski models over the years, I've learned with confidence that it truly is just simple heaviness that can play a huge role in the ski performance sensations that please my weird tastes.

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Originally Posted by auvgeek

...This is as someone who skis a 191 BG laid up that way... I can try to get a weight tonight...

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Please do report a measured weight for your BG's, in the name of science. :) But your obvious love for your BG's suggests you won't be trading with me anytime soon, haha. :)

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Originally Posted by Vitamin I

Please do report a measured weight for your BG's, in the name of science. :) But your obvious love for your BG's suggests you won't be trading with me anytime soon, haha. :)

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I think I got around 2500 g by weighing unmounted P18s and the skis and subtracting. But I have an unmounted backup pair of woodgrain 191s at my mom’s house. I’ll try to remember to get a weight before mounting. For science, not that it matters much.

No, no trade. :) But if you were in my neck of the woods, you’d be welcome to take them for a spin.