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Some of the boaters in here look really experienced, especially some coming out of Idaho and Washington. What is your opinion on when a boater should actually graduate to class 5 boating? I've known some guys going into it in their first couple of seasons. That seems absurd.
Number of seasons has nothing to do with it. Number of days on the water, natural ability, good mentors, all those things dwarf number of seasons.
There are people who have been boating two years but have more days on the water than people who have been boating ten years.
For class V, I would say someone is ready when they are styling class IV. That includes picking their own lines, never flipping except when playing, and having run a wide variety of different types of class IV.
Those of us in the intermountain west are at a distinct disadvantage because our season is so short. Those of you in the coastal northwest and people in the southeast can easily boat year round, so again, number of seasons is a useless indicator.
There is a difference between confidence, and "cockiness". If you have the confidence and skills necessary to run a rapid, I say run it.
Ive only been paddling for 13 months though, which means I can't really answer your question. :biggrin:
As far as the season in the SE, yeah we have the long boating season but the snow sure fuckin sucks.
Yeah, this is cockiness for sure. These guys have had some run-ins in the past. They claim they are bored with what they are doing, but I think it's all a game between each one of them. Funny they all ended up boating with each other. Sometimes it works out that way. I consider a full season what you can do year round too, not a 5 month run. That is totally different. I just hate to see people getting other people into serious stuff out there. That's disrespecting, and there's consequence in that. I don't want anything to do with it.
So you really asked the wrong question then.
I didn't graduate to class five until I moved to WV from MT. It's easy to boat through the year in Morgantown, plus there's the upper and lower Yough that is dam release so we have a great 12 month season. The skiing sucks here so we boat weekly throughout the year. I'm not sure how fast I would have progressed if I stayed in MT.
killabuzz, what is your point? You know boaters doing sketchy things? I think everybody knows those guys...as the whitewater gets harder, the crew you are willing to paddle it with shrinks, at least if you are smart.
My own personal rule is never to run anything harder than class IV (including IV+) with anybody that I don't know for sure is a.) a safety minded person and b.) a solid paddler. I've been in a couple shitty situations in my kayak and had I not been with the people I was with, they could have been a hell of a lot worse.
As for your own progression into class V, that's entirely up to you. I never boat class V unless I feel completely on top of my game that day and are with a group I trust. Like RootSkier said, you need to be able to STYLE a variety of class IV and feel very comfortable in IV+. There are often plenty of ways to turn a class IV rapid into a class V move in respect to difficulty. Start taking the hardest lines and practice eddy moves throughout the ENTIRE rapid. Hit every one. When you feel like you can style that, then start asking yourself if you're ready for full on class V. Finding single "easy" class V rapids that aren't committing, are easy to set safety on and have a clean run out are also good ways to gauge whether or not you're ready for true class V.
That's my $.02
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Cockiness in hard rapids is a self correcting problem. If you see someone about to do something stupid, of course you should tell them so. But if they ignore good advice, and are ignorant of their own limits -- then it is between them and the rapid.
The other issue about "class V" is that it is a VERY broad category. The difference between easy V and hard V is like the difference between class II and class IV. Easy class V is very much within the grasp of a talented and athletic first or second year paddler who has spent some time playing on big waves. Hard class V is hard and dangerous for everybody, the experienced and the inexperienced alike.
A lot of people get into the game in order to find their limits, test themselves in an unforgiving element. You can't take that away from them, and it is arrogant to think you can or should.
It takes cockiness to paddle hard water. Those who are successful temper it with respect. Those who aren't successful get out of the game, one way or another.
As far as skills go, if someone can
roll 100% in swirlies
catch hard eddies in fast water
hit a line even when the water is trying to push them away from it
can recognize potential pin spots
have rescue skills
then they are ready to paddle V. A cocky and determined newb can acquire those skills in a season or two, if they work their ass off.
OTOH, if someone wants to lead and mentor others in hard water, that is a different story. IMO that skillset is a much longer project.
In my opinion, to consider running class V water, you should
1) Almost NEVER swim in class IV water.
2) Run every class IV line with style, not just barely making it down.
3) Be able to experiment with making the lines in class IV harder and still style it.
4) Have the skills to rig a Z-drag with efficiency.
5) Find a GOOD group. At class V, the possibility of death and injury jumps up a great amount. Your group of paddlers are the people that you are trusting with your life. They should all have both the rescue skills, paddling skills, and group skills that will allow your class V runs to be successful.
I guess I would (or will eventually because I haven't crossed that line just yet) fall into the category that you are questioning.
In about a year Ive gotten in at least 150 days, maybe more. I wouldn't call it cocky as much as I would call it working my ass off because I enjoy pushing myself on the river.
I go out on class IV/IV+ runs and pretty much try to catch every tiny impossible eddy, hit every boof, and make any hard ferry I can find. I go out with very good paddlers who can push me to do these things. Sometimes if I don't clean a move, I'll carry back up to make sure I do. I have swam once since october and that was from playboating to exhaustion in Salida (How many swims do I get for that comment?).
I also playboat for a few hours 2-3 nights a week at the whitewater park here.
I will eventually have to make the decision to step it up but number of seasons is the last determining factor I will use. Having a great group of people to paddle with and help me advance has probably been the most important thing.
Great perspective, the two seem like good self-barometers. #3 is something all the great boaters [of which i'm not] that i've paddled with do all the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by kayaktheworld
I would add that good aerobic stamina is important for running whitewater of that level. Most paddlers (like skiers) are in better shape than the average American, but I know a decent amount of class III/IV paddlers who if they tried to make the step up, would get their asses handed to them pretty quick if they didn't start either: a) some kind of strength/conditioning regimen or b) paddle all the damn time.
The difference between IV and V is huge in my book.
This is all good advice. Yonder, the aerobic factor is good to mention too. I imagine the beatedness goes way up from IV to V. The people you choose to be out there with is a huge factor. I've always found folks that have nothing to prove are the best to be at any sport with. Those hyper-types can be a lot of trouble.
Well this is realy my first season and i boated about 35 days this summer, and I am a solid class 3 boater, and pretty good class 4, some class 5. Im not cocky, i just work hard and progress.
Cockiness does not equal confidence. You can build confidence. Cockiness is arrogance and that doesn't fit with how I approach paddling.
You may say "What about the pros?" Pros are cocky and loud to the media because they have to self promote to earn a paycheck. Any pro or very high level paddler I've met has been as humble as anyone when cameras or the media are not around.
Here's my personal list that I used when I decided to paddle class V. I had to answer yes to them all in no particular order.
-Am I willing to walk if I don't feel good about something?
-Am I able to tell if I don't feel good about something?
-Can I predict what my boat will do depending on the water movement?
-Can I absolutely style the class IVs around?
-Am I ok being alone in big water?
-Do I know the ropework?
-Do I have the gear to do the ropework with me and not in my boat?
-Can my body handle it?
-Can my gear handle it?
-Do I have my plan b's lined up?
-Paddling partners...am I comfortable being on the river with them?
-Do I have my firstaid and rescue knowledge up to snuff?
-Am I ok with the consequences of fucking up?
-And, are the rewards worth the risk?
There's a ton of other stuff but those were the questions I asked myself to start. I still do. Class V is fun but it's another level.
Double AMEN to that! A couple of years ago I had the technical ability to run class V, but any time I got near it I just could not paddle fast enough, the oxygen would slowly drain from my brain and then panic set in :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Yonder_River
Now I stay away from it...
I'd be conservative in judging your progress based on two things:Quote:
Originally Posted by chrismo720
1) The Northeast had a terrible year for flows due to the lack of snowmelt. Lower water levels usually mean everything is much easier than "normal" flows.
2) The Northeast is notorious for rating their rapids harder than they really are (relative to AW descriptions and other whitewater regions). Not saying they all are, just on average.
This sounds good and all, but I call bullshit. For the simple reason that I once had my life saved in a class V strainer situation by a cocky young man who definitely had "something to prove." When he pulled me outta there, it made no difference to me what his attitude was. What made the difference was his determination, which was closely allied with his "cockiness" imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by killabuzz
There is nothing wrong with cockiness, provided there is respect and capability to go along with it.
In other words shut up and paddle. And while your at it, shut up about the attitudes and motivations of others.
In the end, who cares what the label is on the rapid? Yeah, you have to treat class V with a little more respect because the possible consequences can be deadly but still, a class III rapid is just as hard for a solid class II boater as V is for a class IV boater.
In the end, it is just what you feel comfortable doing. If you feel like you can do a rapid and make the line/not swim, go for it! The label doesn't matter so long as you are comfortable in the water and having fun.
I would also echo what someone above said, it's always great to paddle with people who are out there to have fun and enjoy the river, not prove how bad ass they are and how hard of rapids they can run. It's all about what makes you smile at the end of the day!
Remember also, there is a difference between guidebook Class V and real Class V.
If you read some guidebooks, the Gauley and Upper Yough are Class V.
I'd say a lot more respect. I've swam a long solid V before and it sucks. I was happy to not have drowned. On the other hand, I think I'd feel comfortable doing the backstroke down class III.Quote:
Originally Posted by kayaktheworld
When you heading to the Grand? :cool:
KTW, I agree that it doesnt really matter what the rating is. Its definitely all about having a good time. Sometimes adrenaline is involved in making me smile though.
But, I wouldnt mind discussing this one and Im geniunely asking a question...no sarcastic undertones at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarsB
How does it become a "true" class V. An AW benchmark? Guidebook? Locals?
Two Gauley rapids and one U. Yough rapid are AW benchmark 5.0's. I haven't run the Gauley yet, but I didnt notice anything more than a couple class III moves at Charlie's Choice on the UY.
I find it hard to see pool drop big water as class V, even with the undercuts, but Ive heard some stories of people getting mauled in the holes at insignificant and paddler-less boats dissapearing under the undercuts.
http://www.americanwhitewater.org/co...enchmarkrapids
It seems like most of the hazards here are not always obvious such as undercuts, sieves, etc where somewhere like Pine Creek out west the hazards are continuous cold water. You can actually look at the water itself and see the difficulty there.
I don't really care if people want to call the Gauley class V as long as they realize that they will get destroyed on class IV in BC if the Gauley is challenging for them. On my personal rating scale, the upper Gauley is more like III+/IV-, same as the Lochsa. Yeah there are some bad spots, but they are so freaking easy to miss if you are at all solid.
Ratings are so subjective, and so regional. It was mentioned above, too, but class V is such an enormous scale that it is borderline meaningless.
Class V...I know it when I see it, except in BC.
I've only paddled the stuff in Idaho on that list but I don't necessarily agree with. Everything in ID on there is a class V but they seem to have them out of order a bit.
I think a lot of people forget the consequence level and just go off the difficulty level when rating.
I also think that it depends on the region. I've never paddled back east but I know a lot of people around here downgrade some Vs. I think this can be a dangerous practice for new paddlers and visitors.
Bottom line, no matter the rapid or river rating, you should know whether or not you can dial it before you get on it. People die in class IIIs too.
Edit. Root, you barely beat me to the same thoughts. I totally agree with the Lochsa. I get up there once a year and don't remember the lines. For the most part we read and run and once in awhile eddy scout. You would catch me doing that on harder IVs and Vs.