Fear and Loathing, a Rat Flu Odyssey

Viva’s friend, Topol’s assessment of 6 studies related to post acute infection cardiovascular issues:
“It’s an inconvenient truth that Covid is associated with an excess of heart attacks and strokes beyond the first month of infection. That can no longer be ignored or refuted. The positive outlook is that these studies zoomed in on patients infected in the pre-vaccine era, and subsequently we’ve seen that vaccinations were linked with halving the adverse outcomes. But even with vaccination the rate isn’t zero.

It’s all the more reason to avoid getting Covid or a reinfection. While it is likely we have moved to an endemic state in the US, with 90% cases accounted for by the XBB.1.5 variant, and no increases in hospitalizations or deaths for many weeks, it doesn't mean Covid is over. The virus is still circulating and will continue to do so for years ahead. That’s also why we need better ways to protect against infections, like nasal vaccines. While we’re waiting for those (which should have already been validated and made available), please continue to take caution. I discussed my practice with Dr. Robert Wachter this week for UCSF Medical Grand Rounds which is freely available to all.”

https://erictopol.substack.com/p/hea...kes-late-after

After three years of playing Keanu Reeves dodging bullets matrix style, the ‘Rona finally caught me. First day of symptoms sucked, day three today pretty much feels like a cold. I'm 58 and have had my shots.

Haven’t been in the virus threads much lately, is the consensus Pax or no Pax?


Sent from my iPad using TGR Forums

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Originally Posted by MultiVerse

The virus is capable of hiding out in people. Small nerve fibre damage is a symptom of long COVID even among people who had mild infections. Do your own research of course, but for what it's worth, it might be worth looking into a booster because some studies show the vaccines help with long COVID .

Sources:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41579-022-00846-2
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/featu...uverify%20wall
https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/vaccines-long-covid

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Appreciate the info. Although the benefit of additional vaccinations for long COVID patients seems inconclusive. From the Nature article:

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The impact of vaccination on long COVID symptoms in people who had already developed long COVID differs among patients, with 16.7% of patients experiencing a relief of symptoms, 21.4% experiencing a worsening of symptoms and the remainder experiencing unchanged symptoms.

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For the time being I think I'll monitor and see if it persists. It's not debilitating by any measure, just very odd.

And old goat, thanks, I read up on that condition you mentioned and don't believe I have any of those symptoms. I have not seen a doctor but I do plan to make an appointment for a check up. Been a long time coming. And I hear what you're saying about weird age related stuff. Could be just that. I'm 58 and have been damn lucky so far, but I have started to see glimpses of what you're talking about.

One thing I'll say about COVID...it ain't done with us yet. Not by a long shot.

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Originally Posted by ticketchecker

After three years of playing Keanu Reeves dodging bullets matrix style, the ‘Rona finally caught me. First day of symptoms sucked, day three today pretty much feels like a cold. I'm 58 and have had my shots.

Haven’t been in the virus threads much lately, is the consensus Pax or no Pax?


Sent from my iPad using TGR Forums

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I think you’re too late for Paxlovid to be of much help. As I understand it’s a very short window, but I’m not a MD.

The best advice I would give you is take it easy. Don’t push it at all, not running errands, exercising, doing chores, going to work… nothing. Let it run the full course and wait until you feel asymptomatic for 10 days before you do anything you would characterize as being strenuous. Really listen to your body and watch your heart rate. Seems athletes are usually insulated from some disease, but this bug has really crippled people who try and ignore it.

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Originally Posted by LongShortLong

"low confidence" is the key phrase that tells us when to trust the government. Those other reports weren't "low confidence" and can be disregarded.

And as for the "we should do something to prevent this next time," there's plenty of programs under way. Most predate Covid, as epidemics have a long history. We have everything from local health departments enforcing handwashing to organizations like WHO for international coordination of health efforts. All worked as intended, and none have a magic wand. All regularly evaluate their results and make changes for better outcomes next time.

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So, pandemic response was A-okay everything on target, sorry we don’t have a magic wand?

Patients dying in hallways, healthcare workers traumatized by being overworked, exposure, and attrition. An economy crippled by shelter in place, a populous so polarized we can’t agree on mask mandates. Public statements that the virus is living on fomite surfaces, rescinding that finding, but leaving the sanitation requirements in place. Super spreading, day-to-day businesses not knowing if they can open or what regulations are in place, every major not-for-profit healthcare system in the country on the verge of financial collapse.

Yet we were as prepared as we could be, and we didn’t learn anything that we could do better next time?

I’m not sure we live on the same planet.

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Originally Posted by lowsparkco

So, pandemic response was A-okay everything on target, sorry we don’t have a magic wand?

Patients dying in hallways, healthcare workers traumatized by being overworked, exposure, and attrition. An economy crippled by shelter in place, a populous so polarized we can’t agree on mask mandates. Public statements that the virus is living on fomite surfaces, rescinding that finding, but leaving the sanitation requirements in place. Super spreading, day-to-day businesses not knowing if they can open or what regulations are in place, every major not-for-profit healthcare system in the country on the verge of financial collapse.

Yet we were as prepared as we could be, and we didn’t learn anything that we could do better next time?

I’m not sure we live on the same planet.

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Well said.

Personally, I think Trump was the perfectly wrong leader for this situation. There was a general understanding that he'd be inept at any serious issue presented to him...so when the pandemic fired up was it his administration's incompetence or was it that the country wasn't prepared?

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Originally Posted by Adolf Allerbush

Well said.

Personally, I think Trump was the perfectly wrong leader for this situation. There was a general understanding that he'd be inept at any serious issue presented to him...so when the pandemic fired up was it his administration's incompetence or was it that the country wasn't prepared?

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I don't think you can ever be prepared, but as soon as Trump's focus was on profiteering over dealing with it, it guaranteed a shit show. As I've said before - if he had made some sad faces, put experts in the driver's seat and just made random platitudes of "staying strong" instead of advocating for drinking bleach he would have cruised to re election.

The question of leadership is an interesting one and probably what pushes this thread a little more towards polyasshat and less TPR.

I will say that Trump acted quickly and effectively with the financial support pieces. I don’t know that a Dem would have gotten the support from the other side of the aisle that Trump received and certainly would have been the target of much more fallout when the inflation numbers really hit. The right still tries to blame Biden for extending Trump’s pandemic relief as the source of the inflation.

I try and think of what an ideal leader would look like for such a critical event, and although I am a huge critic of the Donald, I’m not sure how much better Obama, Bush, Biden, even Clinton would have been. I think a more earnest leader would have been dangling on the end of a rope as facts changed, tactics changed, and new plans were made. I will agree that the dumb ass off script ramblings about ingesting something that was anti-viral did not help. But, that was pretty true to his character and persona however sad that statement may be.

In an ideal world we would have a plan in place that doesn’t require an exceptional leader. At the very least we would address that healthcare was broken before the pandemic and is now shattered.

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Originally Posted by old goat

The reason it would be good to know the origin of Covid 19 is this--if it came from a bat cave in Laos then they need to keep people out of the caves and get guano somewhere else. If it came from a wet market then they need to get rid of wet markets. If it was created by gain of function research than that kind of research should be banned. If it was a wild specimen that infected someone in the Wuhan lab then maybe coronoviruses are too dangerous to collect and study in labs. I wouldn't hold my breath on finding the exact source if it is wild --they're still looking for the reservoir for ebola.

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Nailed it, OG. Discovering the origin isn't so much about finger wagging about the past. It's about preventing it from happening again... and again... and again...

I don't think the populace is willing to go through another 2020. I think most would say "screw it" and carry on, which would of course to lead to more deaths than necessary, right? So like OG said above, pinpointing the source would allow scientists to ACCURATELY target the root problem.

You're describing the ultimate in reactive approaches and advocating experience bias. If we have 3 possible ways for something bad to happen we shouldn't only try to prevent the one with the most recent example.

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Originally Posted by jono

You're describing the ultimate in reactive approaches and advocating experience bias. If we have 3 possible ways for something bad to happen we shouldn't only try to prevent the one with the most recent example.

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Do you remember the SARS outbreaks of 2003 and beyond? There were MULTIPLE lab leaks after the initial outbreak as they were studying it. If it ends up that SARS-CoV-2 came from the lab, then that would show that it's MORE imperative we address lab safety protocols than chasing down impoverished guano harvesters in remote China. That said, it still probably wouldn't be a bad idea to shut down the downright abusive wet markets over there, but that change can only come from within. I'd like to see that happen, regardless of possible natural borne illnesses from there.

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Originally Posted by MontuckyFried

Nailed it, OG. Discovering the origin isn't so much about finger wagging about the past. It's about preventing it from happening again... and again... and again...

I don't think the populace is willing to go through another 2020. I think most would say "screw it" and carry on, which would of course to lead to more deaths than necessary, right? So like OG said above, pinpointing the source would allow scientists to ACCURATELY target the root problem.

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if we just pinpoint the source then the PRC will magically close the wet markets they’ve wanted to close for years, or stop doing bio research? What about another source of zoonotic spillover?

took years to find SARS source when the PRC was more open and less belligerent (and US politicians weren’t screaming stupid conspiracy theory)

China was spreading propaganda that the US invented COVID and released it in China to make China look bad.

But I'm just absolutely certain that China will suddenly change their dastardly ways if only we can just pin down the source despite China's maximum efforts to prevent us from doing so.

Seriously though, I wonder if the PRC leadership even knows the actual truth at this point.

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Originally Posted by MontuckyFried

Do you remember the SARS outbreaks of 2003 and beyond? There were MULTIPLE lab leaks after the initial outbreak as they were studying it. If it ends up that SARS-CoV-2 came from the lab, then that would show that it's MORE imperative we address lab safety protocols than chasing down impoverished guano harvesters in remote China. That said, it still probably wouldn't be a bad idea to shut down the downright abusive wet markets over there, but that change can only come from within. I'd like to see that happen, regardless of possible natural borne illnesses from there.

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So we all know that both natural sources and lab leaks are possible. Good.

At the risk of going back a year and a half (or more) I'm just gonna point out the obvious: if there was a lab leak then the people in the lab know that was possible. Because they know they were working on something that was at least closely related. In which case they know their lives are forfeit if any evidence of that surfaces. Same applies if there wasn't a leak but they were working on a close relative. So they definitely did not preserve any such evidence, if it existed.

Another layer above that: even if the lab employees failed to destroy all evidence, the CCP has no incentive to let that stuff out even if they find it. So the odds that we ever find any such evidence, if it existed, are about the same as finding it if it never existed. We'll never know.

Luckily, knowing would only induce half-blind decisions anyway, since someone would inevitably take what you're saying to its maximum: that plausible risks should be ignored if one of them can be identified as the most recent example. So we're actually better off not knowing, since the relative cost of mitigating each of those risks is negligible compared to the cost of getting one of them wrong.

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Originally Posted by MontuckyFried

Nailed it, OG. Discovering the origin isn't so much about finger wagging about the past.

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Except you repeatedly did just that in this thread the moment "lab leak" was re-raised as a possibility. All of a sudden it was opportunity to rail against the "woke left" who botched the pandemic response with regards not only to determining origin but also the value of masking and social distancing etc.

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Originally Posted by old goat

We have skiing in common. This is a ski forum. Do you ski. Or snowboard?

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If this question determines whether or not you should be part of TGR, I asked this exact question to bennymac, the prolific Padded Room hate poster who doesn't comment or post on anything ski related. OOh look, here he is again above, hating like his usual self. He did not take kindly to said question if he even skis.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzSUo8iPp4M

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Originally Posted by bodywhomper

Is there any planning going on to address any sort of future scenario? Slavitt interviewed a few epi’s a two or three weeks ago and their assessment was that there wasn’t much going on yet.

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Despite the fact at present everything is gummed up by politics, I'm somewhat optimistic. The United States spent $340 million prior to the pandemic to develop mRNA vaccine technology and another $32 billion during the first 2 years of the pandemic to accelerate their availability. We spent tens of billions to save trillions. It's a towering scientific public-private achievement that will likely lay the groundwork to usher in a golden age for biomedicine.

Single-dose gene editing for incurable diseases is now showing great promise. Within a few years we will probably have good remedies for most if not all of the following: effective treatments for Covid, for obesity, and vaccines for malaria, for dengue, for RSV, and quite possibly for Lyme disease. The UK is currently undergoing trials for blood tests capable of detecting cancer progenitor cells up to one year before cancer appears.

While weight loss drugs in particular are going to create a new set of problems, and not all of these things are going to work, on balance we're going to be a lot better off as long as governments and antivaxxers don't strangle the biopharma industry.

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Originally Posted by old goat

We have skiing in common. This is a ski forum. Do you ski. Or snowboard?

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I mostly snowblade. ive skied a few times and snowboarded a few times, but snowblades seem to resemble my favorite sport which is rollerblading.

Ill try to get pics when I am in Colorado later this march. BTW snowblades make travel super easy too.

Obvious alias troll is obvious

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Originally Posted by bennymac

Except you repeatedly did just that in this thread the moment "lab leak" was re-raised as a possibility. All of a sudden it was opportunity to rail against the "woke left" who botched the pandemic response with regards not only to determining origin but also the value of masking and social distancing etc.

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Am I expecting retribution against China if it was a lab leak. Not really. Like I said, we should know to better prevent future pandemics from kicking off. But yes, I was definitely pissed off at everybody who squashed dissenting viewpoints or questioning things over the last few years. And then so many NOW have the gall to act like they were open to the lab leak idea? There's some next level gaslighting going on, however SOME of us have memories long enough to distinctly remember when you'd get banned from social media platforms for suggesting such things.

Remember when you'd get banned for talking lab leak? Pepperidge Farms remembers:
An Update on Our Work to Keep People Informed and Limit Misinformation About COVID-19 - April 16, 2020
https://about.fb.com/news/2020/04/co...e-false-claims

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Originally Posted by Facebook

Today, we are expanding our efforts to remove false claims on Facebook and Instagram about COVID-19...
Today, following consultations with leading health organizations, including the World Health Organization (WHO), we are expanding the list of false claims we will remove to include additional debunked claims about the coronavirus and vaccines. This includes claims such as:
-COVID-19 is man-made or manufactured

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The rest of the major players followed suit of course. I spent plenty of time in social media jail for having the audacity to suggest that one of the best things you can do to protect yourself was fitness and nutritious eating. Wasn't even arguing about vaccines or mentioning that at all. THAT was enough to get me banned.

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Originally Posted by ticketchecker

After three years of playing Keanu Reeves dodging bullets matrix style, the ‘Rona finally caught me. First day of symptoms sucked, day three today pretty much feels like a cold. I'm 58 and have had my shots.

Haven’t been in the virus threads much lately, is the consensus Pax or no Pax?


Sent from my iPad using TGR Forums

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Mom got COVID after being vaxxed but before boosters. She took the Paxlovid w/i 24 hours of being symptomatic after having a doctor consult. She was almost back to normal w/i about 48 hours. Felt much better w/i 24 hours of the first does. I believe you need to take it relatively soon after symptoms and being confirmed positive for it to be effective.

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Originally Posted by Toadman

Mom got COVID after being vaxxed but before boosters. She took the Paxlovid w/i 24 hours of being symptomatic after having a doctor consult. She was almost back to normal w/i about 48 hours. Felt much better w/i 24 hours of the first does. I believe you need to take it relatively soon after symptoms and being confirmed positive for it to be effective.

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Thanks mang.

The intertoobz tell me to start within five days, I'm currently on hold w my HC providers office trying to find out why they still haven't called the scrip in since Friday morning when I first asked for it.

Covid is really the gift that keeps on giving

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Originally Posted by MontuckyFried

Am I expecting retribution against China if it was a lab leak. .

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it calls for nukes, or something else that would fuck up NA more than China, even more than Covid fucked up China

Another potential low risk COVID treatment option to keep on eye on is taking an inexpensive short course of Metformin. While it's probably too soon to jump on this as an option today, a recent study shows taking 500mg of Metformin twice a day for 14 days significantly reduced (by 42%) long COVID symptoms: "A 42% relative decrease and 4.3% absolute decrease in the Long COVID incidence occurred in participants who received early outpatient COVID-19 treatment with metformin compared to exact-matching placebo."

Source: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers....act_id=4375620

The oral antiviral Ensitrelvir is also showing promise: "COVID pill is first to cut short positive-test time after infection. The antiviral ensitrelvir, which is not approved in the United States, shortens symptoms in people with mild COVID and might reduce risk of long COVID — but more data are needed."

Source: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-023-00548-6

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Originally Posted by mae5e0

I mostly snowblade. ive skied a few times and snowboarded a few times, but snowblades seem to resemble my favorite sport which is rollerblading.

Ill try to get pics when I am in Colorado later this march. BTW snowblades make travel super easy too.

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But do you tele-blade?