Tuning Rockered Skis For Best Hardpack Behavior?

I've been testing rockered, early-rise, flat and cambered skis out of their element: on hardpack ["What kind of idiot does that?"] to see how different designs actually work "on" snow instead of "in" snow.

I found the state of base and side tuning has a big effect (good and bad) on these boards when they hit the hardpack. Anyone have opinions they want to share on beveling and edge angle tip-to-tail on their fat (100mm waist+) skis?

Curious to hear what people found works best on their particular models...ski builders too....(paging Splat and Iggy...paging Splat and Iggy)...

A Sharp tune is key all the way through skis length
super 7 was so squirelly when it was detuned
both Lhasa pow and super 7 were carvers with a new sharp tune
but Lhasa certainly carvers better with flatter tail and longer radius
tip rocker only skis seem to perform better on groomers
1 base 2 edge is a simple standard tune but is the most effective

I keep a sharp tune all the way through the effective edge length. Then, I detune any rockered portion of a ski a small to medium amount so it still keeps a bit of an edge, but not sharp enough to get catchy. Leave the edge angles at 2 degree side and 1 degree base as well because it holds a decent edge during longer periods of time. Going above 2 degree side edge just makes it a hassle maintenance wise.

I've done this with my Rossi S7 and Super 7 skis as well as rockered skis from other owners and I rarely catch an edge or get any complaints. Then again, Utah snowpack doesn't exactly result in too many edge catches either.

I detune the rockered portions, especially the tips. Why? Because if you carve the ski, uneven pressure on the tips results in a "catch & release" feeling with the front edge, as ffwd pressure engages and disengages it from the snowpack. This can cause unwanted scrubbing rather than a carve. If you detune the front rocker, you can concentrate pressure on the effective edge underfoot. This has been my experience with Lhasas & DPS.

I've tuned my 196 Llasa's to a full length 1,3 (& I keep 'em sharp) with no detuning which is how I set up all my skis. Works great for me with no hookiness at all on hard snow. My theory is that you'll never know when you'll need good edges until you need 'em & in soft snow it doesn't matter. I've never found a 3 side edge to be less durable than a 2.

I've found the tips on my Garbones a bit "hooky" I suppose.

No issues with the Lotus 120s.

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Originally Posted by Spyderjon

I've tuned my 196 Llasa's to a full length 1,3 (& I keep 'em sharp) with no detuning which is how I set up all my skis. Works great for me with no hookiness at all on hard snow. My theory is that you'll never know when you'll need good edges until you need 'em & in soft snow it doesn't matter. I've never found a 3 side edge to be less durable than a 2.

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I have mine sharp tip to tail @ 1&2 The Key was having the skis GROUND FLAT Convex or Concave does bruatal thing to a ski with that much surface area.

I really like the way 196 Lhasa's Rail on da Groomers

I've got my 196 lhasas at 1 and 1- this is probably a jong question, but what do I get out of increasing the side bevel? I'm not opposed to tinkering, so I might change it if people seem to agree that 1 base and 2 side is money. I detune from where the tip starts to come up forward because I've felt the tips pull or hook in shallow, heavy, windblown snow, but I don't run the file over the last few cms since they don't touch the snow unless it's deep. Is this a mistake?

^yeah, mine could probably use a grind, they'll get it after the season's damage is done.

I'm a huge fan of 1/1 with a slight detune via a gummy on the tip and tail for anything over 100. I've used this same tune on the first three Gotamas, Spatulas, Rubies, and Comis. It's been perfect on all of those. The 1 base bevel is the perfect amount to let you rail a turn but doesn't bite too hard so that you can slide/slarve if you need to. The 1 side let's you really carve without being too grabby. The slight detune keeps the tip and tail from being catchy/hooky.

On my 80-90 skis I prefer a .75 base/2 side.

It's worth noting that detuning is, of course, not only personal preference for size, weight and style of skiing, but also has a lot to do with your mount point. If you mount farther back on a Lotus at the traditional line, you probably don't need to detune the tips. However, as I mount +3 on the Lotus for a more modern feel, I detune the tips, otherwise forward pressure inconsistently engages the long rocker, resulting in hookiness. Again, whether you get scrub or not also has a lot to do with weight, how you pressure the ski, and so on.

Going from a more acute angle to a less acute one is easier because you don't have to grind the sidewall. It just takes off more edge.

Exactly, kp. My tune works for my style, but may not work for yours.

Regarding detuning, I got a great piece of advice from a former WC tech. If you're unsure if or how much you should detune, just carry a gummy stone with you when you go skiing. Fully tune your boards, ski a few laps, hit them with the gummy a little, and then rinse and repeat if necessary.

In my limited experience, 1/2 or 1/3 depending on whether aimed west or east. No detuning, and no catch-release, but I tend to mount at line, not forward.

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Originally Posted by Beyond

In my limited experience, 1/2 or 1/3 depending on whether aimed west or east. No detuning, and no catch-release, but I tend to mount at line, not forward.

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This makes a lot of sense as my Lotus 120s and Garbones are mounted on the line, so pretty far back and pretty far forward respectively. Feel the hook with the Garbones and not with the Lotus. Sharknose/pintail/slightly less sidecut are probably also factors.

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Originally Posted by MTT

...The Key was having the skis GROUND FLAT Convex or Concave does bruatal thing to a ski with that much surface area...

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I totally agree....convex or concave on these big skis does really bad things...
Base flatness = good.

I found some skis "evolved" from their original flatness out of the wrapper to being somewhat base-high after a bunch of days...and needed a final grind to get them to stabilize and regain their grip again...I found lots of folks think their brand-new rockered fat skis grip great, they report they love 'em...then you never hear about how they're working after a month of riding under different conditions...Those lucky enough to never see hard surfaces never notice...but lots of us have to suffer non-fluffy turns more often than we want.

Thanks for all the reports....useful stuff...

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Originally Posted by Horu

I've got my 196 lhasas at 1 and 1- this is probably a jong question, but what do I get out of increasing the side bevel?

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It adds another degree to the perceived slope angle. ;)

I run a sharp edge tip to tail on the Lhasas and it really seems to matter more on the 186 more than the 191 and 196 for the grooms cause I weight the shovel primarily on the 186 while I feel like I have a lot more tip to tail edge to work with on the 191 and 196. And I know people who detune them.

I like what my friend Ray calls his edgework - a progressive tune.
He'll add a half to a full degree to the base bevel at the ends, increasing the angle as it goes out toward the tip and tail.
It takes some experimenting to find your sweetness in such endeavors.

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Originally Posted by splat

I like what my friend Ray calls his edgework - a progressive tune.
He'll add a half to a full degree to the base bevel at the ends, increasing the angle as it goes out toward the tip and tail.
It takes some experimenting to find your sweetness in such endeavors.

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This technique is AKA a Radial Tune (proprietary? per Montana). The 'Progressive' or "Variable' base bevel tune are more descriptive and better general terms, IMO:

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Innovation: Radial Tuning

Utilizing the gradually changing geometry of an ellipse, Radial Tuning bevels skis and snowboards more in the wider shovel and tail areas and less in the narrow waist area underfoot. The effect is easier turn initiation and completion as well as solid secure edging throughout the entire turn, regardless of speed and snow conditions. Also thanks to Radial Tuning the danger of falling is reduced because the pilot can even abruptly interrupt a full speed turn anytime without risking a dangerous fall because the edges are still gripping on the snow.
http://www.montana-international.com...7/Default.aspx

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I jumped off some Dynafit Manaslus the other day (which for me are like a Lotus Elise) and jumped right onto my friend’s Praxis Pows – first time ever on that shape. Return lap on the groomer I decided to try smearing them – went ok. Gave it way more speed and was really getting the smear down – felt great. Then I forgot myself and opening it up way too much for my first hardpack experience on reverse side cuts and started to carve rather than smear. That lasted about half a turn. The up hill ski gave out first and took out my downhill ski, ripping both off. I rag-dolled the furthest I’ve ever ragged down a groomer. Actually I don't think I've ever ragged down a groomed run. That was all my fault and I doubt any edge tuning would have helped me. I was trying to carve high speed on a side cut that simply wasn’t there. User error.

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Originally Posted by khyber.pass

I detune the rockered portions, especially the tips. Why? Because if you carve the ski, uneven pressure on the tips results in a "catch & release" feeling with the front edge, as ffwd pressure engages and disengages it from the snowpack.

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I read that ^ last night and decided to take a file to my Atlas’ and detuned the rockered portion around where the ski is at its most bulbous. Took them out today, which was mostly powder, and it felt better. But it was in the afternoon on the big areas of sluffed-out bed surface crust that they felt waaay better. No more hooking up of the fat tips, it made a huge difference. I felt great all day, not tofu.

Do people tune both edges equally? I try to put most of the weight on the outside ski when skiing on hardpack, so I would imagine the inner edge could use a grippier tune and the outer edge a more forgiving tune.

I'd recommend consistency on all 4 edges and switch skis regularly for even wear (unless telemarking).