(Brits: public school doesn't mean private school. D'uh.)
Wondering what you all think.
A friend has two kids in Toronto in a private school that costs something like $7,000/yr per kid. And they are both, when they reach the age, scheduled to go to a secondary school that costs $40,000/yr per kid, and they won't be boarding. (That's more than Harvard including living expenses, isn't it?)
That's in a city with some excellent public schools.
What are the pros and cons of each?
It's going to depend on numerous things such as geographic location, class sizes at both schools etc. I grew up in florida where the public school system is god awful. Overcrowded as shit and pretty difficult for students to get the attention they need. My parents sent me to prep school and while my freshmen year I generally felt more prepared then some of the kids from public school, I think it leveled out after a while. If you plan on getting in state tuition and the public university isn't super elite, I dont see why you'd spend the money on private school.
super top secret school for gifted spies.
That's right Cliff. I said GIFTED. It's a word.
BUH-LEE-DAT.
Some public schools are quite good and some are not. Same goes for private schools.
In my experience and opinion, in general and in the long run, private is not worth the money and I sent my two kids to public school.
My parents paid for me to go to private school for high school. I feel that it was a huge waste of money. Many of my teachers were fresh out of college themselves and were not cut out for the job. My public school friends always seemed to have more homework and got into better schools. They definitely got a better education.
Public school. Private college.
Parents can (and should) help with homework and make up any gap that public school education might have, and students should learn that sometimes you get stuck with shitty teachers and/or annoying kids or bullies in the desk next to you, just like you sometimes get stuck with a shitty boss and strange coworkers but you've got to make the best of it.
That gap can't be made up in public colleges that are underfunded and/or where research and sports so rule the system that these institutions forget that their primary mission is to educate, inform, and prepare the next generation of students to do something good in the world. A lot of professors and staff members in public universities are totally oblivious to the actual (and codified) mission of the institution in which they work ...
for truly gifted students, sometimes private school is a better option. Often, they'll get more alone time with instructors and with smaller class sizes may be more likely to visit the campuses of local businesses.
Just some thought food.
If money's no object than why not the best school? 7k is actually really cheap for private school (it's pushing 30k around here). At times the best school may be public, though (my daughters will definitely be taking the test to go to Stuyvesant (public) HS in NYC when they're old enough, as I believe it's as good as any private school).
Also, I believe that for families who make less than 100k (or some figure like that) Harvard is now tuition free.
Having gone to both a private and public school for part of high school, I feel that a good public school is better than any private school (even a good one). The academics at my private school were great, but there is a certain social aspect of the high school experience that was missing. There were so many absurdly rich kids there that were completely oblivious to the way the world really works, the social interactions at that school were pretty fucked up. I think the social experience that kids get in high school is almost as (maybe more) important than the academic program, so going to school with a bunch of spoiled brats made that social education a lot less helpful. I also think that a school having an awesome academic program is perhaps a bit overrated. College is the time to actually learn about a particular subject. High school is still just about learning some basic fundamentals, and getting an idea of what type of subjects are interesting. I think both of those can be accomplished at any decent school, public or private.
I think that if the public schools in the area are really miserable, private schools can be a great option if money isn't an issue. But if the public schools aren't too bad, I think that they can offer some noteworthy advantages over a private school.
Private boarding school from knowing friends who went is generally not as good as a solid public school. Just looking at the cons of each will help you make a decision:
Private School (boarding more so) = more rich kids with a lot of money, a lot more and "better" drugs, more free time with less supervision. Social aspect completely out of wack and basically a bunch of 13 - 19 year olds in a college living situation. FWIW many girls I know that went to a private boarding school turned out to be complete sluts - if I have a daughter there is no chance in hell she goes to a private boarding school.
Schralph's got it right here, the downside in public school can be offset pretty easily. Save your money and send your kids to a good (likely private) college.Quote:
Originally Posted by SchralphMacchio
My parents sent me to a small,non religous, moderately priced private school from grades 6-8.
I think it was about $300/month. It was awesome. I learned more in my three years at that school than in all my other years in public school combined. No, I'm not exaggerating.
In that school students were not made to do the curriculum based on our age but upon our proficiency. For instance, I always sucked at math and was therefore never really able to get out of my age group (6th grader doing 6th grade math) but I was very good with literature and by the time I had left that school I had already been reading college level literature.
If I could find a school like that for my son I wouldn't hesitate for one second to send him there.
At the end of 8th grade I was asked by my teacher if I wanted to continue with her and have her teach me all the high school curriculum and prepare me for college. I declined based upon the idea that I really wanted to go to public high school so that I could be more "normal". That was one of the only decisions that I truly regret making in my life.
I went to a private school (Catholic) my whole life until college. 99% of my high school class went to four year colleges (I think 2 kids went military, 2 kids went to jail), with a HUGE number of people going to 'elite' schools. I think the college matriculation rate where I would have gone to public school was around 60%. That says something...I'm not sure what.
Anyways, depends where you live and what the public school system is like, I guess. I do agree with some others though, we fucking partied like rock stars at some PIMP houses on a regular basis.
Also, not that it matters, but I bet the average $$$ being made by my classmates know blows away the public school kids from the same area. Of course, I am dragging the average WAY down. :yourock:
We have some really good public school options: Technical Schools, Music/Arts School, a "Latin," School w/o Walls, etc... here in DC (I know - it's the lowest rated Public system in the US.... whatever) so we'll exhaust those options before sending the kids to private school.
Private Secondary Education, especially outside the Ivy League, assures nothing. Cal Berkeley (a public school) is every bit as good as Stanford (private.)
There are too many factors to make any blanket statements about it. Before I went to high school, my folks debated on going to the public HS - which had some decent teachers but lots of problems as well - vs various private schools in the area. Without fail, when we took the tours of the private schools, they showed off their new (choose 2): track, gym, weight rooms, wrestling rooms, etc. Only one school actually took us into a real science classroom and my dad looked around and said "that wrestling room sure was nice, but you guys have less useful science supplies & equipment than the semi-shady public school in our neighborhood. Why would we send our son here?" Sort of a long pause at that point...
So I went to the semi-shady public school and actually got an excellent education. I was lucky in that I was in the honors program, so most of us were more/less interested in learning. I had some friends that were in the more general classes that went the private route, and for them that was probably a smart move.
completely depends on the quality of the public school. for instance, my public high school sent 99% of students onto college/community college, which i think is pretty damn good. i just can't see spending 30,000 a year on hs. no way the possible improvements could have been worth the price of a lexus each year.
as for the public hs, private college idea, in theory its a good, but don't exclude all public unis, some are still top notch, but you'll know far more about every possible university than you want to know by the time your kids are that age.
Could not agree more. My public highschool iwas as good or better than any private high school. We offered as many ap subjects, as many sports, as many art classes as any private school and my parents did spend my college $$ on high school.Quote:
Originally Posted by todug27
To give you a sampling- my AP math class had roughly 30 kids, 20/30 went to an ivy. 10% of my 300 person grad. class went to Penn- (not penn state) - U. Penn.
Sooo it all depends on what the public school is like.
I'd agree with Tippster's comment that private colleges assures ZERO benefit except some social networking in the Ivy's. By the time you are in college, your drive will determine your success, not the ivy on the walls.
Otherwise, I went to a lot of schools: a private montesauri, various public schools, a fancy private college prep school, even a catholic school for a bit. I was a military kid.
I have to say that private can be worth it DEPENDING ON THE KID AND ON THE QUALITY OF THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS. Some kids will be able to take advantage of the private environment, others won't. In some areas, the public schools SUCK. In some areas they are every bit as good as the private schools.
By far the best for me was the montesauri school as it allowed me to advance at my speed and in a year and a half I was FIVE years AHEAD in math. The public and private schools I went to subsequently didn't know what to do with me in that regard and often didn't have classes for me to take so by the time I graduated highschool I was only 3 years ahead of my grade.
The worst school for me was the Catholic school. It was not the right environment for a little Jew with ADD.
Hey, I'll Stanturd just as much as any other California Golden Bear. But I went there for grad school. Great resources and a lot of bright people there. For undergrad, it's a completely different story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tippster
Here is an example:
Drop by a professor's office at UCB to ask a question. His door is half open and he's at his desk. I knock on the door and pop my head in.
Me: "Hi Professor XXX."
Prof: "You know that this is outside of my office hours?"
Me: "Uhhhh, nice to see you too."
The reason? That prof is the expert in his field. He's an expert, not an educator.
At UCB, my experiences with at least half of the faculty and staff there was that they were so focused in their own little department or world. There were good people there of course, but the overall culture of the institution was more of a "do your job and cover your ass" and not "this is a place where we help students." I've never experienced a student services office that wanted to help so little - it's called service for a reason - all they cared about was that I filled out all the forms and fit into the rules like every other student.Quote:
Originally Posted by SchralphMacchio
I went to a private college for undergrad. If I had dropped by a professor's office in the same scenario, the prof could have, and would have said,
"Hi Alex, how are you doing? I'm really sorry but if you need to talk about class, this is outside of my office hours, can you come by tomorrow morning?"
or
"Hi Alex, I have a deadline coming up, do you want to grab coffee at 3 this afternoon?"
Anyways, I know I'm basing a lot on very limited and segmented experiences. Some state schools aren't too bad. But overall ... the bigger the state school, the bigger the bureaucracy and the more difficult it is for students to get stuff done. When a state school sells 100,000 tickets to go to a football game but only publishes 3 papers a year in an obscure journal in the study of Native American Archaeology, where do you think the institutional focus is going to be? My firsthand and anecdotal experiences with the Cal State system is that the level of academic rigor doesn't even come close to private colleges.
Last word - Sage Hens suck, Tigers rule, Io Triumphe!
I went private and learned a lot. Probably had a better education in the academic sense, but not so much in the social sense. I think it really depends where you are though. Public schools in Texas are not worth the money in taxes you spend on them. As always though, it comes down to parenting and the child's willingness to learn. Good parenting generally (not always of course) produces a desire to learn and a good work ethic. So regardless of where they go they can learn at whatever level they choose to learn.
^^^ Funny, I went to a medium sized state school (U of MT) and ALL my professors were open to talking anytime they were available. I NEVER got shut out because it wasn't "office" hours. Also, my advisor turned head of department was super helpful in rounding up some recommendations for me from professors who were ON SABBATICAL four years after I graduated.
Guess I just got lucky.
^ It really wasn't too bad overall, I actually had a lot of nice profs who have gone out with me for beers etc. Still, I found that institutionally it wasn't built into the culture as a massive state school. I bet you it has a lot to do with the size of the school.
Things are just a bit different at private colleges where your intro classes are 30-50 students as opposed to 300 - 500 students.
Top quality education is important from kindergarten through 6th grade. I went to private and parochial schools for my entire education, but those first years are the most important and the public grade schools in my area were substandard at that time.
After that, a kids study skills and love of learning is set in ways that are difficult to change - no matter how much money is thrown at the problem.
I was lucky, my family cared very much about learning. I went into school already reading and writing at a high level when other kids were still struggling with "see spot run". Those early years are key and a combination of 'home schooling' and conventional education at an early age makes a huge difference.
The class size thing is a good point. I think I had two classes as an undergrad that were bigger than 20 people--and those were both typical core classes (psych 101, a popular Shakespeare class). Most of my classes were less than 15.Quote:
Originally Posted by SchralphMacchio
And the same is true at private HS/elementary schools. We live next to one of the best elementary schools in the city, but we still know people who pulled their kids out because they weren't happy about first grade classrooms with 30+ kids. No decent private school should have more than 18 in a class, really--and I think about 15 is usually ideal. In general I think that no matter how good the teacher/students, a class with around 15 will always be better than one with 30. But there are still plenty of terrible private schools, and lots of good public schools (although they seem to be the exception).
It's all about teaching your kids to value their education and work hard. Something many of my high school students don't understand is that it takes work and effort to learn and be successful. Many of them shut down if they have to struggle at all. If you teach your kids how to find information and how to be engaged, active learners, they can be successful in any environment. The school I teach in is not well-regarded as a particularly great public school (I think this is inaccurate, and we have some awesome teachers, we just have a high drop out rate and low test scores due to a low-income and second language learner population), but we also have a number of very high achievers who go to good schools (Colorado School of Mines, CU, CSU,DU, and others) and receive prestigious awards - we had a Boetcher scholar last year, 1 of 40 in the state of CO. Would some of our better students get more out of a private school, maybe, but not necessarily. The kids that are taught how to seek out an education and challenge themselves are getting challenged and excelling.
As far as public vs. private colleges, my professors at Purdue and U of Colorado (both public, research institutions) were awesome and always were willing to chat and help out students even outside office hours. They also encouraged participation in research and getting involved in many ways outside of the classroom. After the few intro classes, class sizes were small, and most of my classes in the last 2-3 years of undergrad at Purdue were 8-15 students. Not too bad a school with 40,000 students.
In the end, it's about teaching your kids how to access education, value it, and work hard to make the best of the environment they are in and learn how to expand beyond it if necessary.
It matters less what the school is like, and more on how involved the parents are. If parents make the effort to get their kids a good education, they can do it in a bad school. My kids are pubic school educated, and the level of teaching is about the same thrugh out the district, but they schools they went to always blew away all the other schools. Why, were the kids smarter? No, but the parents were much more involved, helped kids with homework, went to teacher meetings,, volunteered in the classroom, et cetera.
My oldest daughter just graduated from a public high school, and like above 99% went to college, the few who didn't actually are on a great apprentice/missionary year traveling the world. Several to top colleges, Stanford, Harvard, Mills, NYU, they pulled huge amounts of scholarships, all from a public high school. (Not to mention they were in the top ten in state testing, which is not too shabby for a state with 30 million people.) I would place her school against any private high school in the country, and they would kick some ass.
So, really isn't a matter of public verses private, but the school itself, and the students/parents that make it up that matter.