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View Full Version : Interesting article on 'flow' trails. (x-post from empty-beer)



rideit
07-27-2011, 10:32 AM
Article on New 'Flow' Trails in WSJ Today....
it's a pretty balanced article imo..talks about building of lots of downhill trails, the benefits for the bikers, fewer trail conflicts and positive economic impacts.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...ections_sports

Ketchum, Idaho

As mountain biking surges in popularity, federal land managers are building dozens of miles of special backcountry trails to accommodate adrenaline-junkie riders and cut down on crashes with hikers.

Dozens of one-way, so-called flow trails allowing bikers to ride downhill at breakneck speeds have been built across the U.S. in recent years, with more in the works. Many of these trails are built on Western public lands managed by the U.S. Forest Service and Bureau of Land Management. They are specially designed with jumps and berms to allow riders to flow unimpeded down the mountain without stopping, making the downhill-riding experience akin to skiing or sledding.

"It's like a luge," said 30-year-old Jeremy Newberg of Hailey, Idaho, after riding a flow trail called "Punchline" in the state's Sun Valley this month. "It's just awesome."
[BIKE] Nils Ribi

Karoline Droege rides an Idaho 'flow' trail.

As well as thrilling riders, the trails provide a legitimate alternative to guerrilla trails carved out illegally in some areas. And supporters say the flow trails help solve what backcountry visitors say is a growing problem: bicyclists careening into fellow trail lovers on foot and horseback.

"Most trails, you don't know if someone is coming around the corner, but this you can trust going down," says Tiff Koehn, a 37-year-old, Spandex-clad corporate pilot, after hurtling down another Sun Valley flow trail called "Forbidden Fruit." It takes just three to five minutes to barrel down that 1.3-mile course.

More than two dozen locations nationwide now boast multiple flow trails, according to the International Mountain Bicycling Association.

The expansion in the number of these trails comes as mountain biking has grown from being the obsession of a handful of enthusiasts 30 years ago to a sport with 7.1 million participants, according to the Outdoor Foundation, a nonprofit group in Washington, D.C. Bikers are now the No. 2 users of backcountry trails after the 32.6 million hikers in the U.S., according a 2010 report by the group. Amid this growth, hikers have been struck by cyclists and seriously injured, and horses have thrown riders after being spooked by bikes.

"If [cyclists] are coming downhill, we have to be alert," says Bob Anderson, a veteran horseman from South Lake Tahoe, Calif.

The conflicts have gotten ugly at times. In 2002, someone booby trapped a trail in Santa Barbara County, Calif., with a wire designed to knock a rider off a bike. No serious injuries were reported, though some riders were shaken up by falls. No arrests were made, according to news reports at the time.

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So far, the flow trails are drawing support from a wide spectrum of backcountry users. "The problem is when hikers, bikers and dogs intermix," says Nick Hilbers, a 55-year-old hiker from Beaverton, Ore., who recently alerted local officials to an illegally made mountain-bike trail in a nearby city park.

These illicit trails have sprung up in several areas in recent years, helping spur the growth in sanctioned runs on federal lands. In the Lake Tahoe Basin, for instance, as many as 150 miles of unauthorized trails ringed the surrounding mountains a decade ago, says Garrett Villanueva, a Forest Service assistant engineer for the basin.

The number has gone down since the Forest Service began redeveloping about 10 miles of trails into flow routes over the past eight years, he says, adding that unauthorized routes are often made because bicycles are restricted from many established trails.

"We are responding to their needs for more trails," Mr. Villanueva says.

Some critics say the growth in flow trails could exacerbate conflicts, especially when the downhill bike-only runs are connected to shared-trail networks. "Are the bikers going to behave themselves? I'm not so sure," says Robert Francisco, 47, a hiker in Sacramento, Calif. "Mountain biker versus hiker on a steep descent is a bad combination."

At as much as $30,000 a mile, flow trails cost roughly three times as much to construct as traditional hiking trails. The high cost comes because heavy equipment such as miniature bulldozers and excavators must be used to move earth and build the berms needed to keep riders from flying off the trail, says John Kurtz, a Bureau of Land Management recreation planner in Shoshone, Idaho.

One of the country's most extensive flow-trail networks—Sandy Ridge, in the foothills of Mount Hood, Ore.—has cost about $700,000 to build since 2009, with another $300,000 or so to complete trailhead facilities, says Adam Milnor, a Bureau of Land Management planner in Salem, Ore.

Taxpayers foot little, if any, of the extra expense for the flow trails. Trail managers say the money comes from such sources as grants and recreation-use fees, and that the trails help pay for themselves by bringing in more visitor traffic. At Oregon's Sandy Ridge, 25,000 visitors a year use a 6.5-mile network of flow trails constructed since 2009, Bureau of Land Management officials say. Previously, the undeveloped trail area hosted as few as 500 visitors a year.

"I'm hoping our local businesses pick up on that and start making this a mountain-bike headquarters," says Scott Lazenby, city manager of nearby Sandy, Ore.

There is also a question of whether federal land managers are exposing cyclists to added risk. At Sun Valley, 58-year-old Janet Lowery of Salinas, Calif., took an easier trail when it came her turn to barrel down "Forbidden Fruit."

"It's scary for me because, hey, I'm old," Ms. Lowery said after she rejoined her two companions at the bottom of the trail recently. "It's just too loose and rocky."

Kurt Nelson, district manager for the Sawtooth National Forest there, says the trails are designed to be safe for riders of many experience levels.

Indeed, officials of the International Mountain Bicycling Association who help design and build many of the trails say they are less risky than many older trails because they don't have obstacles such as stairs and sharp turns that can lead to accidents.

Still, Mr. Nelson says, "there is an assumption of risk" by anyone using mountain trails, adding that he himself took a fall off a mountain bike when riding another trail recently. "My shoulder is hurting where I jammed it."

LeeLau
07-27-2011, 10:39 AM
step in the right direction

creaky fossil
07-27-2011, 10:57 AM
cheaper ways to achieve same, 4-feet-wide machine-made is for gomers

rideit
07-27-2011, 10:59 AM
Look at the big picture, Gonzo. When these are built well, those types of riders tend to get their ya-ya's out on those trails, and tend not to feel the need to bermify/jumpify every turn on the true BC trails.

That said, damn, some crappy trails with off camber, decreasing radius turns need a lil' sumpin' sumpin, too...

Chugachjed
07-27-2011, 11:10 AM
It's always my goal to frighten equestrians. Trail ruining shit machines that they are. I had a guy on a horse once tell me to clean up dog shit, the trail, in places was horseshit all the way across. So back to my point if you're on a horse on a bike trail you deserve to get thrown off your stupid fucking monster.

butterscotch
07-27-2011, 11:39 AM
Kinda don't like the insinuation that all mountain bikers are a bunch of huck monster gravity freaks out building rogue trails and running down small children. Not sure I agree on the cost thing, either; it's not like berms are jumps are strictly required on bike trails.

Nitpicking aside, it is nice to ride a trail that was designed for biking and not have to worry about pedestrians.

mtnjam
07-27-2011, 11:58 AM
Kinda don't like the insinuation that all mountain bikers are a bunch of huck monster gravity freaks out building rogue trails and running down small children.

yeah, but it's an article from the Wall Street Journal, so I'm not surprised by the insinuation

tone capone
07-27-2011, 11:59 AM
Just great! More media supporting the idea that mountain bikes are special and need their own trails because we are just a bunch of adrenaline junky maniacs who can't stop to avoid running down horses and small children.

Go ahead and give creaky fossil more shit, but seriosly, if I have to sacrfice the true goods for so called "flow" trails in horsefly and moondust country then I quit.

The foundation has already been put down where I live, and I ain't too stoked on the whole idea. We already gave up one of the best alpine adventure rides in the country for some beauracrats perceived idea of solitude, and got a shitty, one directoinal, completely flowless so called flow trail with mostly shitty features built by idiots in sandy horsefly country in return. I don't care if they build 1000 miles of that shit right outside my house, it's just not my idea of the holy grail, and not worth giving up the classics for, which is eventually what is going to be expected of us the more the public has this image presented to them.

rideit
07-27-2011, 12:10 PM
I feel you, Tone, but down here, we have ~ 10 miles of 'Flow' trails, and ~ 700 miles of legal 'classics'.

And horsefly season is almost over, time for fire season!
Yay!


Oh, a little bit o' Andy. Again.

http://www.tetonfreedomriders.org/Photos___Videos.html

butterscotch
07-27-2011, 12:11 PM
^^^Yeah, Leverich was not what I had in mind when I said "it is nice to ride a trail that was designed for biking and not have to worry about pedestrians". That trail is a solid example of how not to do things.

I guess it got some work done this spring? I haven't even bothered to ride it.

Edit: to what rideit said: you guys have it so fucking good down there. Seriously.

creaky fossil
07-27-2011, 12:31 PM
bah

not with you here, dude (rideit).

bike-park-ification = shit

what's a "true" BC trail now, and why gomerize ANYthing? miles of gomer trails everywhere!

but agree on redxn of user conflict... and reiterate my first post on that pt... and agree with tone!

this subject always gives the lie to the "one big brotherhood" characterization of MTB riders. if I want to ride bikepark, I'll go to a bikepark... not turn singletrack into bikepark and not build bikepark outside the bikepark either.

buy private land and build bikepark valhalla, don't bikepark our nat forest lands

lph
07-27-2011, 01:35 PM
Just great! More media supporting the idea that mountain bikes are special and need their own trails because we are just a bunch of adrenaline junky maniacs who can't stop to avoid running down horses and small children.

Go ahead and give creaky fossil more shit, but seriosly, if I have to sacrfice the true goods for so called "flow" trails in horsefly and moondust country then I quit.

The foundation has already been put down where I live, and I ain't too stoked on the whole idea. We already gave up one of the best alpine adventure rides in the country for some beauracrats perceived idea of solitude, and got a shitty, one directoinal, completely flowless so called flow trail with mostly shitty features built by idiots in sandy horsefly country in return. I don't care if they build 1000 miles of that shit right outside my house, it's just not my idea of the holy grail, and not worth giving up the classics for, which is eventually what is going to be expected of us the more the public has this image presented to them.

I agree 100% tone. You nailed it.

they have been building and fixing one of our local trails as a flow trail. is it fun? yeah. is it overcrowded with armor, full face wearing, big bike riding guys every weekend? Heck yeah. I don't go near the trail on the weekends.

Instead, I find myself going back to the old classics and loving them. In fact, this 'flow trail' now gets so much traffic, that some of the best trails I have ever ridden in Tahoe actually seems to be getting less traffic.

My concern has already been stated; that by building us flow trails, they are gonna use that as an argument to take other trails away from us later on.

That being said, South Tahoe clearly is trying to become a mountain bike destination. Some multi-use trails are being re-routed and clearly are designed to be ridden by bikes. Most of the crews on trails that are not part of the Tahoe Rim Trail are being led by very good mountain bikers who happen to work for the forest service. When the forest service in south lake studies who are the number one user of most of these trails, mountain bikers usually come in at number one. this certainly gives the crew leaders alot more latitude to build trails that seem to be built with only one purpose in mind, mountain biking.

kidwoo
07-27-2011, 01:41 PM
It's funny when I think of the best trails I've ever ridden. The ones that feel like I just smoked crack when I get to the bottom. This is probably a list of about 10 trails (all out in the woods, no bike park stuff).

Only one of them has any berms or jumps. But it's the rocks and techy sections that can always be ridden faster that make the fun.

The A-line factor has it's place. It allows people to comfortably go faster in wider open swaths of trail than what your normal singletrack allows. It's kind of becoming the plague of 'this is obviously what mountain bikers want' however.

rideit
07-27-2011, 02:00 PM
Agreed. The stuff I am building now is more trad than merely rad, but I am definitely bringing a thing or two I have seen on the pass into the design.

shirk
07-27-2011, 02:03 PM
Wide machine built "flow" has it's place.

Well rounded trail networks that include ALL types of trails is what we need to keep pressing for. Flow, DH, buff XC, alpine epic I want it all, but not at the sacrifice to any one type.

lph
07-27-2011, 02:08 PM
Wide machine built "flow" has it's place.

Well rounded trail networks that include ALL types of trails is what we need to keep pressing for. Flow, DH, buff XC, alpine epic I want it all, but not at the sacrifice to any one type.

Agreed. But, I do agree with the current trend in South Lake where we have a few more 'restrictions' in what can be built then you do. Unfortunately, no one area, outside a ski resort, can do that. Therefore, if they have land, that has an Off Highway Vehicle designation, then by all means go for it with berms, jumps and man made obstacles.

what Kid said is what makes Mr. Toad's one of the great all time rides (regardless of what he thinks of it. ;) ). I never get bored of that trail.

rideit
07-27-2011, 02:12 PM
Wide machine built "flow" has it's place.



As does skinny, handbuilt, natural terrain 'flow' trails. Flow can be just as much about what you find as what you can build, IMO.

creaky fossil
07-27-2011, 02:14 PM
lots to be said for long-term rider satisfaction and gratification at the personal-accomplishment level, if a rider learns how to find flow on a rough, techie trail.

instant gratification for the low-skilled = adolescent perspective

earn your flow!

my geatest reward = making a rough trail feel fast & smooth after several seasons of feeling awkward, slow, choppy on that trail. ain't nothin' better in my view.

bikepark is like skiing groomers

kidwoo
07-27-2011, 02:14 PM
machine built


"flow"

Those two obviously aren't the inseparable pair they're often made out to be. Especially considering how so few people on the planet have any clue how to build trails, machine aided or not.

lph: toad's is in my top 10 list yo. That ride rules. The section between the rocky choppy bouldery switchbacky crap and the the sand turns is pure bliss. Fortunately that's 80% of the trail :D

creaky fossil
07-27-2011, 02:27 PM
Especially considering how so few people on the planet have any clue how to build trails, machine aided or not.

you got that right!

kidwoo
07-27-2011, 02:35 PM
It's a running joke amongst friends that most of the worst trails we've ever ridden were built by mountain bikers.

shirk
07-27-2011, 02:50 PM
bikepark is like skiing groomers

Being this is TGR and groomers are the antichrist I'll take it that you are implying that bike parks are also the antichrist?

I am no park luver that only lives for opening day but it sure can bring a wicked smile to my face when Dirt Merchant and A-line have been buffed out and I've done a warm up lap to remind myself of the jumps. It's a giggle fest catching that much air time on a bike.

Same can be said for a wicked groomed run. Airing rollers and laying trenches where your elbows practically drag on the ground. Not too cool to say I can't have a boat load of fun rocking groomers.

If groomers and A-line are for gomers I don't mind signing up for that every once in awhile.

I get the point some people are making that trading other types of trails for flow sucks, but I don't get the flow bashing.

kidwoo
07-27-2011, 02:55 PM
Most "flow" doesn't flow too well.

That's my biggest gripe.


But I like going mach dumb on groomers too.

creaky fossil
07-27-2011, 02:59 PM
ready-made flow on a dirt highway sucks infected donkey balls

you can disagree; I'm not obliged to agree with you, nor you with me.

I'm also NOT in any hurry to ride bikepark, it's not why I ride bikes... just like XC racing is not why I ride bikes. if I wanted to ride bikepark I'd move to the Sea-to-Sky.

if I wanted to ride "flowy buffness" I'd move to the Sun Valley area.

why make everywhere the same?

PS: groomers are for fundamental move work in a controlled environment... I don't chase gates any more!

kidwoo
07-27-2011, 03:04 PM
It's what plants crave.

AKbruin
07-27-2011, 03:06 PM
I don't know shit about shit, but I kind of feel like the folks in British Columbia have got things pretty well figured out. As far as I can tell, they seem to have all of the kinds of trails mentioned above. And, while I can't speak for the highly-skilled, long-term rider collective (I like to think I represent the lowly-skilled yet enthusiastic about mountain biking sect), I like variety.

shirk
07-27-2011, 03:11 PM
ready-made flow on a dirt highway sucks infected donkey balls

Please expand? Have you ridden good "ready-made" flow? Trails that are made with all levels in mind? A trail like say Half Nelson in Squamish that a total noob can roll down, yet still has features that when worked right can challenge even the highest level of rider?


if I wanted to ride bikepark I'd move to the Sea-to-Sky.

So that is all we have here now? I must have missed the memo when someone replaced all my favourite local trails with only bike park.


why make everywhere the same?

Who said anything about making everything the same? Variety is the spice of life. I want a buff Sun Valley style singletrack here in N.Van it's one of the things we are missing. Problem is so many people have the perspective that it can't happen. It can, it's just going to be a boat load more work than just pointing things straight down hill. We'll get it eventually.

shirk
07-27-2011, 03:15 PM
It's a running joke amongst friends that most of the worst trails we've ever ridden were built by mountain bikers.


Most "flow" doesn't flow too well.

That's my biggest gripe.


But I like going mach dumb on groomers too.

Shitty trails are shitty trails. I am certainly not defending crappy trails or half assed jobs and producing good trails.

I am saying we should be pushing for all types of trails in all communities.

kidwoo
07-27-2011, 03:18 PM
to AKB:

It has nothing to do with skill. Some of the best riders in the world have loads of fun on crank it up.

It has everything to do with a well built trail. The best construction allows survival for minnimally skilled riders but also allows plenty of headroom for both progression in those same riders and also for those wanting to ride it faster the first time down.

A good trail is a good trail, easy to get down or not. Famous trails get shlt talked about them all the time (canadians the first time they ride downieville comes to mind), because people think they're supposed to be hard and that's why they get the reputation. The best trails get the reputation because they allow for a wide range of approaches. Sure almost anyone can get down the d'ville route. But not everyone can put down a 40minute descent. It's a very different trail at those speeds, but everyone who goes slower can also enjoy what the trail is in that capacity as well.

edit: kind of sniped by shirk... Yeah man, you know that you and I are pretty much on the same page these days.

creaky fossil
07-27-2011, 03:21 PM
shirk, read my comments as written, please.

ridden squamish and shore

ridden 2 bikeparks local-ish to me

not interested in dirt highways nor lots of air

diversity by geographic location = good
all things everywhere = bad

that's my view.

sense of place

not

ubiquity

**************

i'm 50 fukkin yrs old, not eager to fly. I live to ride long, techie, difficult descents at a good clip. I make no claim toward UCI Masters world cup competitiveness but believe myself reasonably skilled and fairly quick.

BIG BIKES (>>6" TRAVEL) are in the past for me.

that's my POV.

i'd elaborate better but i'm broken right now and forced to hunt-and-peck with my right index finger!

butterscotch
07-27-2011, 03:22 PM
I don't know shit about shit, but I kind of feel like the folks in British Columbia have got things pretty well figured out. As far as I can tell, they seem to have all of the kinds of trails mentioned above. And, while I can't speak for the highly-skilled, long-term rider collective (I like to think I represent the lowly-skilled yet enthusiastic about mountain biking sect), I like variety.

Also being of the "lowly-skilled yet enthusiastic about mountain biking sect", I like variety as well. Fast and flowy is an opportunity to challenge myself to ride as fast as possible. Technical is an opportunity to challenge myself to make it out alive. I guess I can understand expert riders getting bored with fast and flowy; I've found myself wanting more technical shit this season.

shirk
07-27-2011, 03:38 PM
not interested in dirt highways nor lots of air

I take issue with you calling it infested donkey crap when it's just something you are not interested in. I am not interested in traditional short course XC racing, but I won't knock the fact that it's the biggest segment of riding in Eastern Canada.


diversity by geographic location = good
all things everywhere = bad

Perhaps we are on the same page but different sections. I am not saying that every state forest needs to have trail dedicated to every type of riding. But within the greater area they should be striving to cover off what they can. Guys shouldn't need to drive from SLC to Jackson just to ride an air trail. Flat lands are never going to have mega DH trails, but spots like Sun Valley could certainly round out their network with a fall line trail or two. Just as we here on the Shore need to step back from the fall line and start adding some bench cut.

AKbruin
07-27-2011, 03:39 PM
to AKB:

It has nothing to do with skill. Some of the best riders in the world have loads of fun on crank it up.

Oh, I know it. I recall overhearing a conversation between Weir, Moeschler, and Craig at the finish of the Ashland Super D. They clearly loved the course even though it's pretty much the easiest, flowiest trail in the world. They also managed to beat me on a 45-minute course by like a 9 minute margin, which I like to think is a testament to their ability as much as my suckitude.

Anyhow, I love well-built flowy, smooth, and generally non-technically challenging trails like Ashland or Downieville's Third Divide. When I push myself on them, I feel like I'm never closer to careening into a tree or off a ravine at 30 mph. When I take it easy on them, they're like hippy pow turns. And, who hates hippy pow turns? Not me. Of course, I like the other stuff too.

creaky fossil
07-27-2011, 03:42 PM
I take issue with you calling it infested donkey crap when it's just something you are not interested in.

why?

my opinion may be misunderstood as conclusive fact?

seriously?

that's absurd


Perhaps we are on the same page but different sections. I am not saying that every state forest needs to have trail dedicated to every type of riding. But within the greater area they should be striving to cover off what they can. Guys shouldn't need to drive from SLC to Jackson just to ride an air trail. Flat lands are never going to have mega DH trails, but spots like Sun Valley could certainly round out their network with a fall line trail or two. Just as we here on the Shore need to step back from the fall line and start adding some bench cut.

disagree. location should make for difference in trail type.

you want SV, move or road trip there.

simple.

i don't expect snowbowl to be like dear valet.

i don't expect msla trails to be like patapsco-avalon.

i relish the differences, i don't whine about them!

rideit
07-27-2011, 03:48 PM
We pretty much have it all here.
And they are letting us make more.
That is a good thing.

When I moved here (TV Idaho) there wasn't a single trail in the Big Holes that you didn't have to hike a bike for ~1000ft +, and then bomb down honking on your brakes the entire time.

That has changed, and I don't know a damn single rider here that is complaining.

When the fuck you coming down here, GonzoGomer?

I'll take you on a tour.

creaky fossil
07-27-2011, 03:55 PM
heh, i'm broken and off the bike for at least 6 wks

rideit
07-27-2011, 04:13 PM
What, you get hit by a cop car going down a 1-way street?:FIREdevil:FIREdevil

shirk
07-27-2011, 04:23 PM
meh I guess I've got the rose tinted glasses on today. I respect your opinion that you don't like the new school dirt highway, but degrading to name calling I take issue with.

Trails can be similar yet still different. Location will dictate much of a trail, but that does not preclude all types of trails. Should N.Van only have straight fall line trails for eternity because those where the first style built?

lph
07-27-2011, 04:27 PM
shirk what happened to that bench cut trail that they were just starting to build on the shore (seymour maybe) that you took me, arty, WSD and M on two years ago? I know you had hopes for a flowy fast trail. did it ever pan out?

marshalolson
07-27-2011, 04:32 PM
can someone answer me this question:

what is the point of building a "flow trail" with huge berms and jumps etc if you overshoot everything when you ride no brakes through the huge berms (ie. money + rainmaker)?

thanks!

creaky fossil
07-27-2011, 04:35 PM
1) degrading to name calling I take issue with.

2)Should N.Van only have straight fall line trails for eternity because those where the first style built?

1) take a prozac if you don't like the nomenclature. holyfuck. did it "insult" you? holyfuck.

2) caricatures aren't the same as my views. irrelevant q posed.


What, you get hit by a cop car going down a 1-way street?:FIREdevil:FIREdevil

wish! could make city pay my bills then!

basically my friend had a surprise (to him AND me) accident in front of me, causing me to superman onto pavement. dislocated left elbow.

lph
07-27-2011, 04:35 PM
can someone answer me this question:

what is the point of building a "flow trail" with huge berms and jumps etc if you overshoot everything when you ride no brakes through the huge berms (ie. money + rainmaker)?

thanks!

Is that one of them there 'rhetorical questions'?

rideit
07-27-2011, 04:40 PM
can someone answer me this question:

what is the point of building a "flow trail" with huge berms and jumps etc if you overshoot everything when you ride no brakes through the huge berms (ie. money + rainmaker)?

thanks!

The answer to your riddle lies in the distance between your handlebars and the ground....

shirk
07-27-2011, 04:41 PM
That was Bobsled on Fromme. Not a bench cut singletrack, but a "flow" style trail. It rocks, super fun wide fast and flowy trail with big fun berms and rollers. It's an all inclusive trail that anyone from a never rode to a seasoned pro can enjoy. I'd call it a mini Crank-It-Up.

The trail added something we needed on the Shore, a fun progressive trail that can be something for everyone.

lph
07-27-2011, 04:41 PM
we have new trail that was designed for motorcycles, and they have definitely put in some miles on it. not many people ride it on bikes. BUT, the motorcycles have turned some of the sections into long, 'flowing' pump tracks. I did it last night and was grinning ear to ear as I saw how much speed i could keep up without having to pedal.

In addition, the turns are super long and sandy, which is also alot of fun compared to the too tight turns that almost all of our other mtn bike trails have.

good fun diversity in trails.

lph
07-27-2011, 04:42 PM
That was Bobsled on Fromme. Not a bench cut singletrack, but a "flow" style trail. It rocks, super fun wide fast and flowy trail with big fun berms and rollers. It's an all inclusive trail that anyone from a never rode to a seasoned pro can enjoy. I'd call it a mini Crank-It-Up.

The trail added something we needed on the Shore, a fun progressive trail that can be something for everyone.

Nope. we shuttled this by car after we rode fromme. It was kind of tough to find in the woods and you warned us about all the shitty jumps built at the bottom. it was super loamy and very new and raw.

tone capone
07-27-2011, 05:04 PM
I really like alot of what you guys have said, this is good conversation. Creaky, I can't believe you are 50, no fucking way.

On that note, I'm not 50, but after seeing the trailbuilding movie here, whatever it was called, I was starting to feel 50. I gotta say, I just don't like that idea of the renegade trail builder/elite stunt rider being the dominant image presented to John Q. Public. We had that movie here and the Wilderness people and the local Forest Service beauracrats were all there, and I couldn't help but cringe everytime those guys started complaining about how they weren't entitled to express their special artistic construction skills wherever they felt like it in on public lands. Even from my partially adrenalline soaked exsistance it comes off as entitled and elitist. How many riders can hit 20 foot gap jumps and 15 foot ladder drops? Not many, and I assure you, not for long after the orthapedic injuries start taking their toll. How many land managers and Wilderness crusaders want to see more fall line trails and related stunt architecture on public lands? Not many thats for sure, but the nature lovers sure love to point out those characteristics of mountain biking being incompatible with multiple use whenever they get the chance.

The other problem with this approach I feel is that it alienates the vast majority of people that can enjoy or at least appreciate the kinder gentler aspects of mountain biking. I just think it's a hard sell and that it puts in jeopardy those of us who just want to be left alone on a sufficiently entertaining backcountry trail.

Someone else said keep the flow trails/bike parks on private lands and ski hills and I agree. Sure I understand that some so called flow or stunt trails can be good for all abilities, but let nature's obstacles define trails on public lands and do whatever the fuck you want at ski areas and bike parks. With regard to new trails on public lands, lets remeber what rideit says:


Flow can be just as much about what you find as what you can build, IMO.

I realize some areas like Teton Pass are a great situation, but it's not going to work out like that everywhere.

Also, I realize everything is somewhat different with this issue in Canada as well. My opinion here is based more on living in the so called "Greater Yellowtone Ecosystem" where we are supposed to right every environmental wrong ever commited on earth under the ever watchful eye of the Green Police.

shirk
07-27-2011, 05:04 PM
Ahh yeah that was the all mountain lap on Cypress. Blind Skier to SGS to Slippery Canoe to Upper Tall Cans. I was forgetting what we rode.

It's bedded in good in spots, but Upper Tall Cans has taken a kicking by big bikes. It's still a wee bit too fall line in sections from a sustainability stand point considering it's very easily shuttled.

It's a really fun lap, nothing super technical on it. The faster you ride it on a AM bike the more fun it is. On the whole it's a departure from the standard N.Van trail characteristics. It's a progression towards rounding out the style of trails around here, back and forth across our steep local mountains instead of straight down them forcing kidwoo to creep down with his butt on his tire and wearing out a pair of brake pads every lap.

kidwoo
07-27-2011, 05:06 PM
what is the point of building a "flow trail" with huge berms and jumps etc if you overshoot everything when you ride no brakes through the huge berms (ie. money + rainmaker)?



It lets you know who should be fired from trail crews.

creaky fossil
07-27-2011, 05:16 PM
I really like alot of what you guys have said, this is good conversation. Creaky, I can't believe you are 50, no fucking way.

On that note, I'm not 50, but after seeing the trailbuilding movie here, whatever it was called, I was starting to feel 50. I gotta say, I just don't like that idea of the renegade trail builder/elite stunt rider being the dominant image presented to John Q. Public. We had that movie here and the Wilderness people and the local Forest Service beauracrats were all there, and I couldn't help but cringe everytime those guys started complaining about how they weren't entitled to express their special artistic construction skills wherever they felt like it in on public lands. Even from my partially adrenalline soaked exsistance it comes off as entitled and elitist. How many riders can hit 20 foot gap jumps and 15 foot ladder drops? Not many, and I assure you, not for long after the orthapedic injuries start taking their toll. How many land managers and Wilderness crusaders want to see more fall line trails and related stunt architecture on public lands? Not many thats for sure, but the nature lovers sure love to point out those characteristics of mountain biking being incompatible with multiple use whenever they get the chance.

The other problem with this approach I feel is that it alienates the vast majority of people that can enjoy or at least appreciate the kinder gentler aspects of mountain biking. I just think it's a hard sell and that it puts in jeopardy those of us who just want to be left alone on a sufficiently entertaining backcountry trail.

Someone else said keep the flow trails/bike parks on private lands and ski hills and I agree. Sure I understand that some so called flow or stunt trails can be good for all abilities, but let nature's obstacles define trails on public lands and do whatever the fuck you want at ski areas and bike parks. With regard to new trails on public lands, lets remeber what rideit says:

tone's the man!

entitled = bullseye... also: arrogant, spoiled-child, instant-gratification... i.e. I deserve _______

(yeah, 50 = fossil... multiple-brokenness = creaky)

let's not forget the high per capita rate of trustafarians and Richie Richs in those riding valhallas where they "have it all." a high concentration of richies who just ride and ski and lobby the USFS or Whizzler BP... totally unlike reality known to most humans

tone capone
07-27-2011, 05:24 PM
.Well, just remeber, it's exactly what the all the Wilderness Crusaders think of those of us who want to ride in unspoiled alpine environments (or just anything they want to make a new Wilderness area) "You can go there but you aren't entitled to bring your bike".

I'll admit, I'm selfish too, I just want to convince the nature lover what I already know, which is that I and many others are willing and able to continue sharing remote/backcountry/alpine trails with them without doing any harm to the trail or the environment through which it passes, and without running down women, children and horses. Forgive me, It's just frustrating when you try and do everything right on the trails and then articles like this come out that basically say we need to be corralled onto special "speed freak" trails because we just can't control ourselves in a multiple use environment.

creaky fossil
07-27-2011, 05:28 PM
yep! to both paragraphs

LeeLau
07-27-2011, 05:43 PM
I kinda lost track of this but i would say that when I was riding down Warm Springs in Sun Valley (lift-shuttle accessed) I couldn't help thinking that boy - almost any travel on that trail would be too much travel it was so fast and smooth and fun but so ridiculously easy But again fun fun fun. I also couldn't help thinking that it would be also kind of cool if there were the odd root or trail feature (could be natural could be manmade so you could throw small hips, play with the terrain etc). that's a bad example i know because its a climbing trail and it would suck bad to t-bone a hiker/climber as you throw mad dope whips on blindcorners

Since I've been kind of into zoom zoom trails lately and there's not much of that in the Shore I've been building that kind of trail but don't tell any of the land-caretakers about that or I'd have to get some kind of permit or whatever.

but yeah - I'm with the creaky bitchy one and the tone capone dudes on this; if all I had to content myself with was long uphills, alpine slogs and then long long long alpine descents i'd think that's about tits.

But i still do think these purpose built trails are a step in the right direction - even though they are kind of gorb friendly. I mean don't we have to embrace even the gorbs? Everyone started somewhere right?

and to digress even further - woo - unless memory has failed me as badly as my bowel controls - compared to almost any of the Tahoe trails where I tried in vain to follow Joe/shabadu whatever-his-nickname is now; downieville was a solid meh

kidwoo
07-27-2011, 06:29 PM
and to digress even further - woo - unless memory has failed me as badly as my bowel controls - compared to almost any of the Tahoe trails where I tried in vain to follow Joe/shabadu whatever-his-nickname is now; downieville was a solid meh

I mostly used that because I always used to come across people from out of the area (okay, people from vancouver) who used to bitch about how 'easy/unfun/disappointing' that trail was, AND it's a trail that a lot of people know or know OF. The downieville shuttle route (butcher and 3rd divide at least) used to be every bit as good as toads......for the exact same reasons. Super stretched rough sections of trail that you could terrify yourself with once you got up to speed. I don't mean dork in spandex speed, I mean fast. I'm pretty sure you rode it before they started fucking it up. (like 3-4 years ago?) It's done now though. They've had to put in so many switchbacks in both butcher and 3rd divide that the sustained descent tweaking just isn't what it used to be. Way too tight to provide that never ending pounding it used to have. But my point was that I would normally run into people saying something like that, watch how they went downhill, and could easily tell by the way they rode, they had no idea why people thought that trail was fun. Those dudes had probably never hit 30mph in a bunch of wheel gobbling rocks that are no big deal at a quarter of the speed. 'Fun' was a synonym for so steep that you had to do a bunch of controlled falling type riding for them. When someone said 'fun trail' that's what they assumed. Until you're riding that type of trail as virtually brakeless as possible, you're just not going to get it, ya know? I promise you would have had fun sticking on my wheel coming down butcher a few years ago. A lot of fun actually.

That's all :)

But yeah after they did the reroutes on butcher, I think I kind of decided I'd never be riding that trail in downieville again. These days you're right. Much better riding around the basin.

lph
07-27-2011, 06:54 PM
RE: Downieville, the switchbacks they put on third were worse than the ones on butcher, but in either case, it has to be 3 years since i have been there, and don't really have any interest in going back. i just don't think it offers anything much different or better than what i can find in tahoe.

and again, agree 100% with Tone's points. at the first community meeting with USFS hired consultant mountain bike trail building company the local riders who showed up were calling for tables, drops, berms and big bike fun.

I stood up a couple times to encourage them to keep the features small to start and get the support of the majority of riders who are not able to clear a 15' gap jump. show the community that given the chance you can make a trail that is fun for all levels. I repeatedly referenced Banzai DH at BRMBP. Everyone in the room looked at me like i had three heads. They wanted a big badass trail even though all the trails that accesses this new construction are all 'blue square' trails.

creaky fossil
07-27-2011, 06:57 PM
http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?p=8255941&postcount=38


switchbacks indeed. i took this photo recently at Vail, to illustrate a switchback turn in desperate need of a berm or re-routing.

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6012/5920741614_9979b3993c_z.jpg

this was one of the switchbacks that got bermed up. it was fun... although the radius was a little too tight for the downhill speed you had. i paced the radius at about 10 feet.

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6026/5920183331_ff57cfa34a_z.jpg

reads to me as:

I lack the skill to corner on a switchback unless bermed, so I demand berms

MTB trails have all kinds of turns. why go Lowest Common Denominator on turn type?

hell, why not make all trails on an 18% grade with 20m radius turns?

ponder this:

easier trail = ride is over quicker, AND

higher speeds for the unskilled = more bad user interxn

rideit
07-27-2011, 07:56 PM
Wow, this is turning into a solid conversation about the direction of trails. It apparently is hitting a nerve all over the place, the 'seriously skilled' riders are viewing everything as being 'dumbed down', whereas other riders are hailing these types of trails as a great way to progress.

I just went for a decent ride, and thought about this thread a LOT while climbing (Ferrin's-West Game-Game Divide-Hagen-Home, never, ever getting out of my 32f 28r, just for shits and giggles!)

I had an awesome ride, a personal best. These trails have all been built or recently (6 years?) re-worked with Mt. Biking in mind, and in 85% of the work, they nailed it. In some spots, they destroyed what was a great, technical climb, and replaced it with boring contour crap. In others, they took shit turns and unclimbable grades, and made them sweeter than sweet. All in all, a major improvement for 95% of riders...except for the OTHER type of'elitists' who don't like change.

Bottom line, we are lucky that this sport is legal at all. It was looking grim for a while there. The long, alpine gnar-gnar trails are pretty much all still there, and most are 'unimproved' still. Let's not even mention night riding in wilderness...

The political will that has been proven by the local bicycling clubs and volunteers in the creation of so, so much new tread, whether you love it or hate it, is simply invaluable. These trails are community assets, recreational and social opportunities, hobbies for many (trailbuilding, riding) and so many other positive things.
The bickering among members of the same group is not really productive if you look at the BIG picture, the sport is still maturing, and adolescence is about finding one's own limits and tolerances. Mt. Biking is no different, IMO. After all, it's just dirt and rock. If it proves to be boring down the line, well, rally the troops, and change it!!!

I would wager that some energies will shift back to natural terrain, others to more man-made styles, but regardless, it is energy not wasted on HOHA's and NIMBY's.

Hell, now access to Mt. bike trails is a feature of real estate literature, that's how far we have come.

My point?
Never stop progressing.
Never stop participating, and going to club meetings, and Dig Days.
Those that never show up and always bitch are never happy. Those that do show up with Pulaski in hand often get to create the types of things they are personally looking for, if they are savvy about it.


Victory goes to those who show up, ultimately.

Just my two bits of worn out tread...





Now we need to go back and debate about rim brakes, bar ends, suspension, 8 speed drivetrains, 3DV parts, and sealed cartridge bearings ruining bicycles. Oh, and don't get me started on singlespeed hardtail 29-ers....no one likes THOSE fucking guys....:FIREdevil:FIREdevil:FIREdevil:FIREdevil:F IREdevil:FIREdevil

joetron
07-27-2011, 08:09 PM
and to digress even further - woo - unless memory has failed me as badly as my bowel controls - compared to almost any of the Tahoe trails where I tried in vain to follow Joe/shabadu whatever-his-nickname is now; downieville was a solid meh

Drunken Bear 1999. But I remember trying to stay on your wheel.

Pete was riding a BowTi and I thought it was the sickest thing on the planet.

Drunken Bear, I think that was my first taste of the good stuff.

LeeLau
07-27-2011, 08:25 PM
joe - it was one of the seminal holy shit moments that made me realize that for all the tech skills I had on the shore i had a lot to learn about going fast. That run's still frozen in my mind better than any stupid GoPro could ever make it

creaky fossil
07-27-2011, 08:39 PM
wendell, that's bullshit talk about "elitists." points for provocation; demerits for stilting reality!

sorry, but it's a skill-intensive sport. the only "progress" that matters to this discussion is skill progress. you gotta be humbled in order to improve!

do we flatten mtns to make them "accessible" to "all skiers"? in other words, so gomers can "ski the peak," do we move earth uphill, reducing the steepness? do we grade hillsides to eliminate multiple fall lines?

or do we tell everyone, "you need to learn how to ski before you go up there"?

realty values? holyfuck. are you even watching what's happening in America?

last: "pick up a pulaski" is without context: what if your USFS ofc says "fuck you" to MTB riders who offer free labor with their own tools, free trail design assistance, and volunteer FULL maintenance responsibility?

dude... really?

we're not all in trustafarian valhalla.

-sean

rideit
07-27-2011, 08:54 PM
Hah, I threw that out as a hook just for you!
I knew you would bite!

Anyway, that doesn't diminish what I am saying. Here, these types of trails are not impacting or replacing any of the more techy 'true' trails, they are just another fun option. Don't ride them if you don't want to.

Don't like Jimmy's/Fuzzy/Parallel?
Then don't.
They didn't exist a few years ago anyway, go ride Blacks, which hasn't changed.

Don't like Ridge?
Then ride Sno-tel-Arrow-Phillips.
Don't like Putt-putt-Sidewalk?
Then ride Hagen.

See where I am going with this?

creaky fossil
07-27-2011, 08:58 PM
i'm a hungry fish who is home, broken! of course I bite!

also i like debating with you! :D

***************

where you are "going with this" depends on your plum, richierich location, bubba!

tone already explained how the western MT richierich influx is radically different. more trustafarians and richies here = worse conditions for MTB, AND more friction due to rich/poor divisions.

which is why I say, each place is different and should remain so!

I'd move down there if I could afford the move and the cost of living... and if McMansionville were more my cuppa

FUCK this is tough with one-finger typing!

grinch
07-27-2011, 09:57 PM
do we have the same name or are you bating me fossil

kidwoo
07-27-2011, 10:04 PM
http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?p=8255941&postcount=38



reads to me as:

I lack the skill to corner on a switchback unless bermed, so I demand berms

MTB trails have all kinds of turns. why go Lowest Common Denominator on turn type?

hell, why not make all trails on an 18% grade with 20m radius turns?

ponder this:

easier trail = ride is over quicker, AND

higher speeds for the unskilled = more bad user interxn

There's a big difference between CAN go around a crappy 10ft radius turn that sits after a quarter mile of steady descent, and LIKE TO go around that same turn. In the end they'll both end up with crappy, chewed up trail about 20 feet in front of them. That's what I was talking about earlier. Just because a turn that's too tight for the trail has a bank, doesn't mean it has 'flow'. And just because I'd advocate for either a 60ft radius turn there or just routing the trail differently doesn't mean I can't ride it. A lot of us long time riders and the beginners got a lot in common. I'm completely serious.

kidwoo
07-27-2011, 10:05 PM
Drunken Bear 1999. But I remember trying to stay on your wheel.

Pete was riding a BowTi and I thought it was the sickest thing on the planet.

Drunken Bear, I think that was my first taste of the good stuff.

That trail sucked compared to what I'm going to show you when you come out here this fall. (I decided.) Don't even bring your dh bike. There's genuinely good riding here.

creaky fossil
07-27-2011, 10:12 PM
There's a big difference between CAN go around a crappy 10ft radius turn that sits after a quarter mile of steady descent, and LIKE TO go around that same turn. In the end they'll both end up with crappy, chewed up trail about 20 feet in front of them. That's what I was talking about earlier. Just because a turn that's too tight for the trail has a bank, doesn't mean it has 'flow'. And just because I'd advocate for either a 60ft radius turn there or just routing the trail differently doesn't mean I can't ride it. A lot of us long time riders and the beginners got a lot in common. I'm completely serious.

braking before turns is part of riding

i'm completely serious

rheola

schladming

vs

willingen

you can keep willingen!

i'm even more completely serious (http://pezcandy.blogspot.com/2011/07/humbler.html) about that!


do we have the same name or are you bating me fossil

my name is carlos estevez!

bating without an eye?

grinch
07-27-2011, 10:25 PM
any relation to emilio? anywho, all i have to add would be Rejean Rando would be out the next day railing berms and dropping 15 to falt and sadly i'm just a working stiff but i don't work much more than those trustifarians

kidwoo
07-27-2011, 10:55 PM
braking before turns is part of riding

i'm completely serious


That's why I said 20 feet 'in front' of crappy switchbacks.

Would be pretty impressive if they were after.


Also: 50 bucks for a video of you riding schladming.

WAY serious yo.

rideit
07-27-2011, 11:32 PM
Similar discussion going on over here in wankerville:

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=719528

Arty50
07-28-2011, 12:44 AM
The downieville shuttle route (butcher and 3rd divide at least) used to be every bit as good as toads......for the exact same reasons. Super stretched rough sections of trail that you could terrify yourself with once you got up to speed. I don't mean dork in spandex speed, I mean fast. I'm pretty sure you rode it before they started fucking it up. (like 3-4 years ago?) It's done now though. They've had to put in so many switchbacks in both butcher and 3rd divide that the sustained descent tweaking just isn't what it used to be. Way too tight to provide that never ending pounding it used to have.

Thanks for making me all nostalgic. I really, really miss scaring myself shitless while going mach stupid at D-Ville. Especially on 3rd. I remember when I hit that first reroute on 3rd 3-4 years ago...just when you had gotten up to shit your pants speed, you had to now scrub speed instead of just rallying on for god knows how long. So fucking stupid.

123ski
07-28-2011, 01:19 AM
I would say that I am a much more technical rider than a flow trail rider. I enjoy Thieves Forest, Fire Swap, and NCS more than I like anything considered a "flow" trail here in Utah. HOWEVER, because I am not as good at jumping and railing berms I really do enjoy those types of trails because they are 1. different, and 2. challenging for me. I always like a challenge. I also feel that those types of trails help you learn better bike control in different situations than just straight up technical trails. Never have had the opportunity to ride something as smooth as A-Line..and it is a dream of mine.

I rode Teton pass a few weeks ago. I love the technical spots in the trail, but had a hard time hitting many of the bigger features. Had I had more opportunities to ride larger "flow" style trails, had I had the opportunity to hit some larger table top jumps, then many of those features would have been much easier for me to swallow and I would have had even more fun on the trail.


What I don't understand is: If there are 7.1 million mountain bikers like this article suggests. And there are about 10 million skiers/snowboarders in the U.S. like google suggests...why aren't more resorts in Utah building better trails for bike users??? I stood in line at deer valley on Saturday for biking longer than any mid-winter line at Brighton. WTH are resorts thinking?

powder11
07-28-2011, 07:53 AM
I think "flow" trails are great for bike parks and even for new trails being cut. The problem I have is adding flow when maintenance is done on older trails. Whistler is blessed with a variety of trails from super old school to the flowiest of flows. Whistler is also blessed with dedicated trail crews who work feverishly on trail maintenance every season, but why are they "flowing out" the classics whenever they need work?

River Runs through it is a prime example. It used to be an old techy trials type trail that is slowly being transformed into a flow trail. Problem is the terrain is flat, so the trail now rides more like a pump track in the sections they've upgraded. I have nothing against pumptracks, there are a bunch in town already, so why transform one of the classics into a pumptrack while all the old stunts, skinnies and bridges that you used to have to sketch along and wheelie drop off are being left to rot? There's even talk of just knocking down the old stuff which could be repaired more easily than adding in all those roller coaster like bridges that a 2yr old could ride.

One of the sketchier river crossing bridges I've ever encountered has been dumbed down to something my mom could ride over on a tricycle. It used to be just an old downed tree across the river that had some chainsaw cuts on it for traction. Then they cut the top off making the log flat. Then they added ropes on each side for the walkers. Last year the river washed it out and they re-built with a big superhighway that you could roll across dragging a baby stoller trailer. Now it has more "flow" they say.

Yeah, lots of folks lost bikes in the river trying to ride the old bridge, but that was part of the allure of finally being skilled enough to ride across it with confidence. It was a badge of accomplishment. It separated the folks who could ride it and the ones who had to walk it in shame. Now any jack ass can go out and ride River, claim they "cleaned" every feature and wonder what all the hype was about. Of course you can, it now has flow.

joetron
07-28-2011, 07:57 AM
That trail sucked compared to what I'm going to show you when you come out here this fall. (I decided.) Don't even bring your dh bike. There's genuinely good riding here.

But it was the shit on my Kona Kula with 80mm fork and Vbrakes in 1999. That is for damn sure.

How is late Sept, early Oct?

rideit
07-28-2011, 08:31 AM
Spot on, Powder.



123, I am not following your train of thought here.


"What I don't understand is: If there are 7.1 million mountain bikers like this article suggests. And there are about 10 million skiers/snowboarders in the U.S. like google suggests...why aren't more resorts in Utah building better trails for bike users??? I stood in line at deer valley on Saturday for biking longer than any mid-winter line at Brighton. WTH are resorts thinking?"

Lots to parse, but the two aren't remotely the same in terms of impact on the land and cost of providing terrain for every user type. Also, resort terrain is incredibly difficult (and expensive) to build on, you can't just run the lifts and disperse the users.

In addition, many (most) ski resorts are on FS lands, which require a LOT of bureaucratic wrangling in order to even put one shovel in the ground, and a full on EPA/NEPA review for anything significant.
In other words, it's not apples to apples.

The average amount of $$ spent by a unique Mt. Bike visitor is currently a fraction of that by a skier, let alone a family, where the user base can be from 2 yrs to 90+. Revenues at most resorts are not driven by ticket sales, but by hotels, restaurants, and yes, Real Estate.
Mt Biking is still, for most US resorts, an unproven financial investment. Yes, many are rolling Mt. bike programs out (the fact that you rode lifts for trails at Deer valley to begin with is exactly the progress that you seem to want, remember that!).

I could go on, but those are some facts about Mt. Biking and resorts.

joetron
07-28-2011, 08:44 AM
I'd imagine the only reason the lift is running at DV in the summer is to bring sight-seeing lodge dwellers to the top of the mountain. What they spend per person at the fancy lunch place at the base is probably more than a rider's lift ticket. Gotta refuel after walking that little loop on top.

rideit
07-28-2011, 08:50 AM
^^^^^^yup^^^^^^

Same scenario at almost all resorts.

creaky fossil
07-28-2011, 08:58 AM
That's why I said 20 feet 'in front' of crappy switchbacks.

Would be pretty impressive if they were after.


Also: 50 bucks for a video of you riding schladming.

WAY serious yo.

dude...

you too?

wow.

20 feet after?

facepalm

I dont video me. dont have the ego for it.

123ski
07-28-2011, 09:02 AM
Rideit

I guess thee is a lot of logic in what you are saying. I know we can't rely on resorts to build our trails for us. I guess all I am saying is that I am getting a bit jealous of places like Whistler, Sun Peak, Silver Star, Fernie, Northstar, etc. I mean, even New Jersey and PA seemingly have better lift served DH than most of the west coast.

rideit
07-28-2011, 09:12 AM
Difference is that ALL of those are on Crown land or Private land. Not a single one mentioned is on FS land.

Hey, buy one of the failed ski resorts out here on private land, and make yourself a fortune!

Oh, I mean make yourself bankrupt.

Sorry.

kidwoo
07-28-2011, 09:27 AM
But it was the shit on my Kona Kula with 80mm fork and Vbrakes in 1999. That is for damn sure.

How is late Sept, early Oct?

Pretty much perfect. Starts to rain a bit around then.

Even I had a 100mm LONG TRAVEL fork in 99. Those elastomers squished FOUR INCHES!!

LeeLau
07-28-2011, 10:05 AM
One of the sketchier river crossing bridges I've ever encountered has been dumbed down to something my mom could ride over on a tricycle. It used to be just an old downed tree across the river that had some chainsaw cuts on it for traction. Then they cut the top off making the log flat. Then they added ropes on each side for the walkers. Last year the river washed it out and they re-built with a big superhighway that you could roll across dragging a baby stoller trailer. Now it has more "flow" they say.

Yeah, lots of folks lost bikes in the river trying to ride the old bridge, but that was part of the allure of finally being skilled enough to ride across it with confidence. It was a badge of accomplishment. It separated the folks who could ride it and the ones who had to walk it in shame. Now any jack ass can go out and ride River, claim they "cleaned" every feature and wonder what all the hype was about. Of course you can, it now has flow.

I can't speak to the whistler crews but cedar/wood is a pain in the ass. You always have to come back to it and fix it no matter what - and frequently. Dirt needs fixing but less so. I'm liking dirt-topped bridges these days - a bit more work but kind of long-lasting

123ski
07-28-2011, 10:09 AM
Out of curiosity anyone know total biker visit days whistler posts each season?

lph
07-28-2011, 10:31 AM
123, in the tahoe area, heavenly actually wants to do mountain biking, but the USFS said no.

Kirkwood is the next place in the tahoe area that will likely have mountain biking. they have some private land as well as FS land.

apparently kirkwood manager was taken to whistler by gravity logic, inc and he fell in love. anyone want to guess what trail? Crank it up. Why, cause it is fun and anyone can ride it and he saw that.

Oh, and as an aside, some of you would be happy to know that the USFS put in a newish trail near heavenly, multi-use. some of the turns kill all flow on a mountain bike. you're tempted to ride the trail fast, but if you do, you will blow through every turn. the trail is meant to be ridden at slower speeds and it becomes more fun. yup, i said it. bring it on.

creaky fossil
07-28-2011, 10:35 AM
Oh, and as an aside, some of you would be happy to know that the USFS put in a newish trail near heavenly, multi-use. some of the turns kill all flow on a mountain bike. you're tempted to ride the trail fast, but if you do, you will blow through every turn. the trail is meant to be ridden at slower speeds and it becomes more fun. yup, i said it. bring it on.

having to slow down for turns is part of riding!

rideit
07-28-2011, 10:37 AM
Agreed.
A great rider can anticipate and adjust speed on the fly.
(I am not a great rider)
Preferably without squaring turns and skidding...

lph
07-28-2011, 10:51 AM
having to slow down for turns is part of riding!

I agree!!! I still pick up speed on the straight aways, but having to slow down for these turns without destroying the trail is actually fun!

Hey, I am one of the people who actually still like the old school trails and though I am not quite as old as CF, I am still pretty old.

Last summer at whistler I had a blast with Arty on the upper mountain riding some of the more technical trails, which, we had all to ourselves cause 60% of all rides done at whistler are on A line (which I also love cause I can case every table top and then ride away. ;) )

creaky fossil
07-28-2011, 10:55 AM
Agreed.
A great rider can anticipate and adjust speed on the fly.
(I am not a great rider)
Preferably without squaring turns and skidding...

what sucks is a surprise turn after a section that enables ass-hauling. sight lines = crucial part of trail design

rideit
07-28-2011, 10:58 AM
Indeedy-o.
Those are the kind of things I can fix, and often when a section like this simply can't be re-routed for whatever reason, big fat berms CAN mitigate the speed differential.

creaky fossil
07-28-2011, 11:19 AM
Indeedy-o.
Those are the kind of things I can fix, and often when a section like this simply can't be re-routed for whatever reason, big fat berms CAN mitigate the speed differential.

or negate the need to slow down, causing new problems!

brakes aren't just for emergencies, and being able to use them sparingly is a skill developed over time and miles, not something riders are entitled to.

rideit
07-28-2011, 11:23 AM
Crud-dite is a Lud-dite!
less brakes needed before a turn=less washboard.
However it is accomplished, whether by grade reversals/chunky-ass rocks before the turn, or a big berm.
It IS that simple.

Berms aren't evil, google is.
Wait.

Don't be evil.

Particle
07-28-2011, 11:23 AM
Good debate going on here, with intelligent posts on all sides. Who'da thought?!

Anyway, weighing in from the Utah side where we have had NO flow trails of any sort for a very, very long time... it's been really good to have a couple of options here this season. When all we have ever had are either buff, pebbly loose XC singletrack or chunderfests like Bountiful or Thieves, flow trails are a really nice option. I think Arcylon has taken a LOT of pressure off of other trails.

Unfortunately the WSJ article referenced the Rush trail in Corner Canyon as Utah's example of 'flow'. I've never ridden it, but it is universally hated/loathed as a one-way anti-flow trail, one of the worst trails in Utah.

Particle
07-28-2011, 11:25 AM
And just FYI, Arcylon has experienced a lot of the angst you guys are talking about - people whining that it isn't big/hard enough (cough ectreeskier), people whining that it's too hard to clear doubles, etc etc. Fact is, it strikes a really good balance for all ability levels. Beginners can roll everything, intermediates can work on clearing the little doubles, and experts can rally it at nuclear speeds. It's been really cool to see.

creaky fossil
07-28-2011, 11:28 AM
washboard happens. it's why the baby jesus gave us suspension. it can be mitigated by suspension, improved tactics, and rider skills improvement. or by reducing user numbers. see Troy Rarick about the negatives of "promoting" your trails and what that does to them!

flat turns are harder to ride, yes. take off that tutu, sally.

rideit
07-28-2011, 11:31 AM
I think I will start specializing in decreasing radius, off camber turns made up of pea gravel, greasy clay, and kitty litter.

You know, to make them more 'core'. Oh, and with soft, 12" deep loam on the outside of the turn, straight into prickly pear...to 'keep everyone honest'...

creaky fossil
07-28-2011, 11:32 AM
And just FYI, Arcylon has experienced a lot of the angst you guys are talking about - people whining that it isn't big/hard enough (cough ectreeskier), people whining that it's too hard to clear doubles, etc etc. Fact is, it strikes a really good balance for all ability levels. Beginners can roll everything, intermediates can work on clearing the little doubles, and experts can rally it at nuclear speeds. It's been really cool to see.

I could say the same about any blue groomer...

just sayin'

creaky fossil
07-28-2011, 11:33 AM
I think I will start specializing in decreasing radius, off camber turns made up of pea gravel, greasy clay, and kitty litter.

You know, to make them more 'core'. Oh, and with soft, 12" deep loam on the outside of the turn, straight into prickly pear...to 'keep everyone honest'...

:rolleyes2

go Obama!

rideit
07-28-2011, 11:35 AM
I could say the same about any blue groomer...

just sayin'

Dude, you don't even ski at the resorts.:the_finge
Groomers= mach nipple fun when the pow is played.
Same here...


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_psVkzdwdYTM/TSWuOEWvQGI/AAAAAAAAB3s/iuNy1wIvjxY/s1600/Palin_Bachmann2012.jpg

creaky fossil
07-28-2011, 11:43 AM
Dude, you don't even ski at the resorts.
Groomers= mach nipple fun when the pow is played.
Same here...

true, not at a "resort," but overall in the picture of total vert skied, I ride lifts 95% of my ski time and skin 5%... and I prefer a ski hill where grooming is usually restricted to the 15-25% of skiable terrain that is green or blue rated. I dig irregular terrain and conditions whether on bike or skis, and prefer crud to pow

lph
07-28-2011, 11:50 AM
true, not at a "resort," but overall in the picture of total vert skied, I ride lifts 95% of my ski time and skin 5%... and I prefer a ski hill where grooming is usually restricted to the 15-25% of skiable terrain that is green or blue rated. I dig irregular terrain and conditions whether on bike or skis, and prefer crud to pow


Really???

creaky fossil
07-28-2011, 11:58 AM
Really???

yeah, it's true. like pow but nowhere as much as the weirdness and inconsistency of crud. I like what humbles me and keeps me on my toes!

********

W... low blow! I don't feed the elephant!

rideit
07-28-2011, 12:14 PM
That pow pow is too easy for Crudly...mank is so much more core

creaky fossil
07-28-2011, 12:26 PM
That pow pow is too easy for Crudly...mank is so much more core

whatever, dude.

pow is rare so I prefer to enjoy what's more frequently found, rather than bitch about the lack of pow or limit my skiing to pow days

feel free to again feel emasculated by my stated prefs, though. it's wicked cool! I def prefer what I do only to make you feel rice-dicked!

Gripen
07-28-2011, 01:16 PM
and prefer crud to pow

You're doing it wrong.

rideit
07-28-2011, 01:34 PM
pow is rare !

Not here.
Visibility, OTOH...

panchosdad
07-28-2011, 07:40 PM
Rideit, this all makes me think about riding S. Horseshoe to Mahogany last weekend, taking a big group up and down again. They loved the ride, and no one complained about a few rutted out muddy corners that they might have had to walk up, or the steep,rutted, loose, completely "unsustainable", upper downhill of Mahogany. I was having a blast too. Of course when they got to the rerouted lower sections of Mahogany and could open it up a little everyone was grinning ear to ear, and that's where I heard people say "I really loved that section". But I think they liked it more for having gotten down the upper stretch.

S. Fork of Horseshoe has been heavily worked on for a few years, and is now rideable up and a blast down. We've been working on Mahogany too, obviously haven't gotten to the steep upper part. Just starting to think that maybe we'll lose something as we make the whole thing "sustainable" and climbable. Just have to be sure we don't take all the character out of it.

scrublover
07-28-2011, 08:52 PM
Interesting reading.

From my perspective in the land of mostly flat, lots of chunk, and the only flow type stuff is either at a resort or built completely illegally...I got nothin.

I suck at teh jumps, so having some of this stuff to practice on would be nice. It's either the groomed shit at Diablow, or the illegal stuff around here which is all big and gaps - not exactly what I want to learn on. Hell, when I am there, half the day I can have the old school chunky rock runs all to myself. A lot of our riding spots are private owned land trusts - building shit there is completely retarded. Most illegal stuff ends up on state owned land around here - they take a slightly less dim view of things like that. Our state budget is so fucked right now, that combined with the amount of work to do stuff like that, and the limited land (relative to you big western states -heh) to work with anything legit like that in CT is likely a loooooong time away from happening. Illegal built stuff, or folks building on their own land is about it. Our lack of vert in the right spots makes it tough as well.

Many of us out here would love to have more small and medium sized local stuff like that, but not at the expense of my beloved chunk, rocks, roots, log skinnies and steep rollers. Building that kind of stuff is incredibly labor intensive for the amount of trail it nets - so many damn roots and rocks unless you luck into just the right spot.

Pile me on the group that dislikes the idea of presenting us to the non-riding public as speed freak hooligans out to fuck shit up.

Eh, no idea what I'm talking about so will go now.

allTandA
07-28-2011, 09:03 PM
++++++++++

allTandA
07-28-2011, 09:07 PM
true, not at a "resort," but overall in the picture of total vert skied, I ride lifts 95% of my ski time and skin 5%... and I prefer a ski hill where grooming is usually restricted to the 15-25% of skiable terrain that is green or blue rated. I dig irregular terrain and conditions whether on bike or skis, and prefer crud to pow

^^^ WTF over? this is enlightening info regarding crud's contrary and unusual nature.

cue snarky tony blair accent "oh and good conversation gents. carry on"

lph
07-28-2011, 11:05 PM
4 hour ride this afternoon. Decided it had been too long since I had done my favorite ride. Rode up over armstrong pass to TRT to Mr Toads. lots of climbing, hot temps, led to lots of cramps. hate when that happens.

man, did i find the flow though! :)

kidwoo
07-28-2011, 11:14 PM
4 hour ride this afternoon. Decided it had been too long since I had done my favorite ride. Rode up over armstrong pass to TRT to Mr Toads. lots of climbing, hot temps, led to lots of cramps. hate when that happens.

man, did i find the flow though! :)

Is that clear?

rideit
07-28-2011, 11:45 PM
S. Fork of Horseshoe has been heavily worked on for a few years, and is now rideable up and a blast down. We've been working on Mahogany too, obviously haven't gotten to the steep upper part. Just starting to think that maybe we'll lose something as we make the whole thing "sustainable" and climbable. Just have to be sure we don't take all the character out of it.

I completely, completely agree, Dan. I believe that every land manager out there should read this thread, I will certainly point it out to Bosell (our district trail guy). If (and yes, that is still a big If!) I can get to work on trails professionally later this season or next season in TV, I will take a lot of this to heart as I flag. It seems that a 'middle ground' is possible, and can have the positive attributes of a couple of different design philosophies, all on the same trail. Phillips Ridge is a stellar example of this, there is a bit for every taste, and I have only met one clown that wasn't grinning ear to ear at the end...(and his name was Rasta!)

I am really intrigued by this conversation, obviously nerves have been struck, in both camps (and some pleasurable ones, as well as painful ones!).

A good example of a trail that COULD have had mad flow, but for some reason misses the mark (just barely) is the new powerline trail in Moab. It is a fine example of FS and volunteer craftsmanship, and is certainly 'sustainable', but you know, upon reflection, it just doesn't have that *magic*.



PS: I fucking LOVE chunk. I WISH we could have some Goose/Little creek/EC rooty/rocky/techie action here. But we really don't have the soil and rock type...

lph
07-29-2011, 08:24 AM
Is that clear?

not really, no. couple small patches on TRT. then ALOT in the woods right before the actual descent starts at the last meadow. walked for 1/8 mile or so. descent to saxon creek was $$$ with only a few small patches. few patches on upper saxon creek, last one right before the long rock garden section. after that clear.

so, no not clear, but worth it? yes.

creaky fossil
07-29-2011, 08:57 AM
^^^ WTF over? this is enlightening info regarding crud's contrary and unusual nature.

contrary because echo chambers are good only for electric guitar AND because I think minority views need airing even when contrary to those of Joe Everyman, or those of The Cool Kids.

unusual? I guess that's due to my liking what I like, regardless of Popular Opinion. never been into cliques, tribalism, or "me too." not as a little kid, not since then either. I'm pretty used to the label.

I do prefer the snow 2 days after a dump, over dump day... yep. please... hate me for it!

butterscotch
07-29-2011, 08:59 AM
this thread not only makes me want to ride, but also do some trail work.

kidwoo
07-29-2011, 10:36 AM
contrary because echo chambers are good only for electric guitar AND because I think minority views need airing even when contrary to those of Joe Everyman, or those of The Cool Kids.

unusual? I guess that's due to my liking what I like, regardless of Popular Opinion. never been into cliques, tribalism, or "me too." not as a little kid, not since then either. I'm pretty used to the label.

I do prefer the snow 2 days after a dump, over dump day... yep. please... hate me for it!


Man.....you are a REBEL!!!

What kind of smokes are those rolled up in your sleeve?

creaky fossil
07-29-2011, 10:56 AM
try harder to completely miss the point, woo... you only missed 75% of it this time!

rebel? uh... nope. no more than you are a nancyboy e-rider.

let me know when you arrange my airfare to ride schladming, will ya? I'll let you film and heckle me!

tone capone
07-29-2011, 11:01 AM
I do prefer the snow 2 days after a dump, over dump day... yep. please... hate me for it!

I love you for it, I wish more people felt this way. Creaky, you should help me start a trend in this regard. Pnut and I are always joking that we need to start a propaganda movement that makes it way cooler to ski crud than pow. We're on to something here...

creaky fossil
07-29-2011, 11:19 AM
I love you for it, I wish more people felt this way. Creaky, you should help me start a trend in this regard. Pnut and I are always joking that we need to start a propaganda movement that makes it way cooler to ski crud than pow. We're on to something here...

my 2d fave thing about cruddy chowdersnow is lots of skiers don't like it so there's no clusterfuck of fair-weather riders on the hill and the lifts are empty

those who are there are either stoked (usually most of 'em, at the bowl) or whinging about how it's tough to stay balanced/centered... from their stool in the bar!

don't get me wrong, though, tone... I don't want it to become cool! that would make the hill more crowded

lph
07-29-2011, 12:56 PM
In tahoe, those days suck inbounds. The sun comes out, it gets warm and the crud is just brutal to ski and it becomes about skiing from one huck to another.

The better call 2 days after a storm in tahoe is the b/c and sidecountry. the snow has settled, our avy danger is invariably low to moderate and you can charge up on top of the creamy, wind buffed pow. so much flippin fun.

So, kidwoo, I thought about you yesterday while riding toads. I charged those mid-ride rock gardens at speeds that scared the living bejesus out of me. I was holding on for dear life. the one that nearly got me while going fast was the one right after the long rail road tie step section. I was all over the place, but man was it fun. :)

creaky fossil
07-29-2011, 01:13 PM
In tahoe, those days suck inbounds. The sun comes out, it gets warm and the crud is just brutal to ski and it becomes about skiing from one huck to another.

it's like that here in late Mar and Apr much of the time, i hear ya on that... knee and hip wrenching snow when deeper than 5-6" or so of new gets sun-warmed... ski early, chase shadows, or hike/skin

back to the bike: rock gardens at speed = scary fun

allTandA
07-29-2011, 02:14 PM
creaky-man no hate at all. just colored commentary. : ) I feel ya and see your POV, just amazed that fresh untracked blower pow is such a turn off for you. furthermore your e rebel status is choice and smartly so, even in the echo room.
I don't wanna see this denigrate into name calling though..... apologize to woo or its time for a nap.

oh btw and back on topic- I rode warm springs(as reference by LL) with all natural flow flavor last night and just crushed in on my new yellow equator catapult bike with a 11.5" BB height and 59 degree HA. a little piggy to climb but oh so fun on the down.

Cheerio fucking O brah!

creaky fossil
07-29-2011, 02:55 PM
I dig the color!

if you re-read what I said to woo you'll notice I didn't call him a name! I did an inverse comparison -- I'm not a rebel so he's not a nance. dig? besides, dude's too skilled and smart for me to make anything stick anyway.

lph
07-29-2011, 02:59 PM
Oh, and CF, if you have never ridden with woo, he will heckle you. we had a campsite set up in downieville right next to the trail. he set up a chair after biking and literally yelled at every person that passed to 'pedal bitch' (or some variation on that theme) It was good humor.

marshalolson
07-29-2011, 03:10 PM
Oh, and CF, if you have never ridden with woo, he will heckle you.

when he was just out here, he just talked everyone (i.e. me) into creeping as slow as possible off step-downs. good times :D

kidwoo
07-29-2011, 04:31 PM
try harder to completely miss the point, woo... you only missed 75% of it this time!

rebel? uh... nope. no more than you are a nancyboy e-rider.

let me know when you arrange my airfare to ride schladming, will ya? I'll let you film and heckle me!

You take this shit way too seriously.

kidwoo
07-29-2011, 04:32 PM
when he was just out here, he just talked everyone (i.e. me) into creeping as slow as possible off step-downs. good times :D

I'm just stoked I was able to unhook the bungie cord before you noticed.

creaky fossil
07-29-2011, 05:14 PM
You take this shit way too seriously.

bah! I'm broken and frustrated, not really serious... how can a sarcasm-filled satire-geek like me be serious anyway?

maybe it's just hard to know whether I'm serious, and when! like right now... but I was serious about the quality of the HR2 review, even if it put me to sleep with its length!

kidwoo
07-29-2011, 05:23 PM
You take this shit way too seriously.

creaky fossil
07-29-2011, 06:24 PM
I'm upside-down, the "frown" is a smile!

TBS
07-29-2011, 06:51 PM
The comments in the OP about Sandy Ridge in Oregon were interesting. That project is a good example of a public (BLM) private (IMBA) partnership that actually worked. I had no idea it's costing $700K per mile to build though - I need to bill someone for the three days I worked on it as a volunteer.

They built a great set of "flow" trails with runs for all levels of skill. Trouble is, you have to grind up a paved road for 40+ minutes to get a 15 minute, 1200' "flowy" descent and you eat a lot of bark if you miss a turn.

Like Creaky, I prefer the "flow" of tight singletrack climbs, great views and descents with flat 2' switchbacks.

Nice that there are opportunities for both

Turrible
07-29-2011, 09:53 PM
I just shred gnar ... rigghhht?

TheMessenger
07-30-2011, 08:52 AM
IMBA built a 'flow' trail in Draper. It sucks.

rideit
07-30-2011, 12:31 PM
Help us out here.
What sucks about it, specifically?
Can it be fixed without massive re-routes?

Maybe this 'sustainable' trend can have a silver lining if we can learn from what's been built in this early phase of this type of building philosophy.

rideit
07-30-2011, 12:43 PM
Here is an interesting perspective from a 'IMBA party line' POV:

(just putting it out here for discussion)

__________________________________________________ ___

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=719528


(Indytrekracer, MTBR)

This trail is to IMBA specs, I don't think its lame.

http://alexmtb.smugmug.com/Landscapes/BCRTP-Aug-2009/P1000773/629518731_xGpXQ-M.jpg


Schooner Trace: Brown County State Park.

So far no one has ridden every feature. It's hard. Rocks, exposure, narrow bridges, narrow tread, jumps, drops, tough technical climbs/descents.

It was a lot of hard work to build. Some was pro built (most was pros building by hand), a lot was volunteer built. When the trail wasn't hard enough more rocks were added. If there was a ride around, rocks where placed to block the ride around. If feature weren't hard enough we dug them out and built them harder.

The Brown County trail system has 25+ miles of trail. Ranging from true beginner flow trails to Schooner. So there is a nice mix. On a weekend there are hundreds of riders spread throughout the park, but if you take on Schooner, you are likely to only see a few riders, while the beginner and intermediate trails are packed.

So, here are some random comments

1) When working on public land, you typically need to start with easy trails and build up to difficult trails. If Schooner was the first trail we build, we probably wouldn't have gotten the chance to build more trails.

2) There are more beginner and intermediate riders than experts. There are some who don't like this. They want mountain biking to be a hard core underground thing that the lesser riders can't take part in. But parks are looking for facilities that lots of people can use. If you want a hard core trail in a park, you need to be willing to build beginner and intermediate trails. I was just at a trail I am sure the OP would call lame IMBA trail (Jack Rabbit, NC). The parking lot was full. Half the riders were women and kids. I saw more hikers than I did when I did a day hike on the AT trail. Sure, I would personally prefer a 6 hour Pisgah death march full of fire roads, hike-a-bike, and gnarly trails, but taking my wife to Pisgah would not end well. So if you are a hard core rider, yes, there will be many miles of trail built by IMBA clubs that aren't built specifically for you. But those trails will be highly used and are important for the sport.

3) There are lot of people who claim to be hard core who aren't. We get lots of riders who talk a big game and then turn around after a mile of Schooner. Many riders think that because they can power up a steep fall line climb and let go of the brakes down a fall line descent, that they have skills. But when we put rocks on the trail many of them complain.

4) The technical specs for building a trail have little to do with lame vs. epic. I could build a lame trail while hitting all the grade rules, just as I could build a lame trail that breaks the grade rules. In Indiana, we have 180 miles of non standard (fall line) trails in the Hoosier National Forest. Yet few people ride these trails, while the IMBA spec trails we have built in State Parks are heavily used. But, yes you can build trails that meet sustainability specs that are boring. Don't blame the specs, building great trails is hard. It takes a technical understanding and an artists eye. Not everyone who tries to build trail is good at it.

Quote:
How can we build trails that truly challenge riders with high speeds over rugged and loose rocks with 2 to 3 foot drops and burmmed corners and 30% grade G-outs.
All of this can be done on an IMBA spec trail.

5) Its hard for anyone to build a trail above their own ability to ride. We are fortunate that many of our trail builders are also very talented riders who have seen trails all across the country. So, they are motivate and know how to build advanced trails. If the so called "hard core" riders in an area sit on the side line and ***** and moan about how the local IMBA club sucks, then why would the local IMBA club build advanced trails for them? If Intermediate riders make up the trail building leadership, then how are they going to know how to build advanced trails?

6) The key is variety. I like all kind of trails and I think it is lame when riders have one particular type of trail they like and any thing else sucks. We build an beginner flow trail and people complain it doesn't have enough features. We build rock gardens on Expert trails and people roll the rocks of the trail.

creaky fossil
07-30-2011, 01:37 PM
good thing that's just one IMBA's view and we have other...

oh wait. no we don't.

so many "logical" conclusions there which are actually naked assertions... sad, but we're not the smartest nation, nor one interested in facts or logic... especially when inconvenient to the making of a buck or advancing an agenda

truth:

PLENTY of beginner and intermediate trail mileage across America. it's the dominant form on the ground, AND the dominant character of trail approved by IMBA.

I was president, a board member, and basic member of our local IMBA chapter during the 2000s decade. so I'm not talking without knowledge or experience here.

rideit
07-30-2011, 01:50 PM
PLENTY of beginner and intermediate trail mileage across America. it's the dominant form on the ground, AND the dominant character of trail approved by IMBA.

.

Opposite scenario here, Crud.
15 years ago, people would come in the shop and ask "where is the flowy singletrack around here?"

We would reply, "well, there are hundreds of miles of it! You just have to hike-a-bike 2000 feet to get to it!"

creaky fossil
07-30-2011, 02:01 PM
so they should have yup-retired where there are trails they want.

also -- BUILDING rock gardens?

TheMessenger
07-30-2011, 03:19 PM
Help us out here.
What sucks about it, specifically?
Can it be fixed without massive re-routes?

Maybe this 'sustainable' trend can have a silver lining if we can learn from what's been built in this early phase of this type of building philosophy.

It's sucks because it doesn't 'flow' and its not that fun to ride. And no it can't be fixed without massive reroutes. That's the problem with 'sustainable' bureaucratic style, building by committee, IMBA type of trail building is often the lines chosen are not that creative or fun, and once there built they are really hard to 'fix' to make better after people start complaining about it. Everything is planned full out, full bench cut, full sustainable, inflexible from the beginning, there is no room for fine tuning or sessioning, organic type of trail building that leads to a better result. Meanwhile the project sucks up all sorts of resources that could be used elsewhere to better effect.

I really would not care except our local IMBA rep has been publicly criticizing other trail builders in the area, and working with the forest service to get their work shut down, selling out the biking community (even as far as to support a wilderness bill) all so, once there are no alternatives, everyone will be forced to ride his IMBA approved pile of crap.

tone capone
07-30-2011, 03:39 PM
Great points in the Brown County Parks article. Fall line in modern trail building should come only in small doses. That balances a little variety with the imba specs while still having sustainability and heart in your throat moments. Short fall line sections are easier to just roll for more people and are more easily rerouted if they become a problem. Otherwise I really love it when most of a trail milks every inch of verticle for all it's worth for long sections, with all different kinds of tread of course.

Funny thing about that picture and the rocks and the ideas of putting rocks on trail/ taking them off.

There are a couple trails I really love that go through alpine talus fields. I spend a little time there flipping the bad ones into a flatter position and often then the rock garden rolls great on the way down, which is all I care about. I'm weird like that though, sorry. It makes me think of the way rocks can be used in other places. Obviously nothing original, but something that works for me and I'm sure can be applied to other instances.

From last year, I'm still too gimpy for this:

http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m456/anthonyjamessaracelli/post%20injury/P1190183.jpg?t=1312061711

http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m456/anthonyjamessaracelli/post%20injury/P1190185.jpg?t=1312061614

Sorry crudly, I just like some things better groomed. :biggrin:

rideit
07-30-2011, 06:03 PM
so they should have yup-retired where there are trails they want.

also -- BUILDING rock gardens?


Hah, nice troll, Crudly!!


But WAIT!!


Aren't YOU an ex-lawyer that no longer works?

hmmm...

creaky fossil
07-30-2011, 06:13 PM
Hah, nice troll, Crudly!!


But WAIT!!


Aren't YOU an ex-lawyer that no longer works?

hmmm...

uh... nope. I'm flat broke. and unemployed. nearly bankrupt. and to your unfunny suggestion -- I moved here with a 29k/yr job, not a 250k/yr annuity or trust fund. dig?

not enjoying the snark, Wendell. not at all. in fact I'm pretty fucking sick of nest-eggers fucking up western MT with their demands that things change to suit what they wish it was. if you want to live in a place that has certain qualities, yoy should do your research and move to the place that is the best fit -- not move to a place where you like 25% of the things about it and reshape the other 75%, fucking over the place's individuality in the bargain.

no satire or sarcasm in this post. I don't find humor in bankruptcy, poverty --nor especially in yuppie arrogance toward another's financial woes.

where'd you get the idea that I'm a rich guy who retired early? you and anyone else working that vein need to rethink.

rideit
07-30-2011, 06:16 PM
Oh, sorry.

I didn't know.

Let's stick to throwing bike barbs.

Your pee smells like old whore sweat, and you probably ride a recumbent.


Truce?

gravitylover
07-31-2011, 07:02 AM
^^ That's better.

I dunno, maybe it's because I've been riding mtb's for so long I prefer a more "wilderness" type trail. Flow is nice but certainly not the only way to go. Occassionally I'll actually go out of my way to hit a place with better flow but if I'm riding alone (my regular MO) I shoot for places that are relatively unimproved in the last fifteen years. Use the shape of the land and the natural features that are already in place and build your trail in harmony with them.

Bench cut and grade reversals and fall line blah blah blah. Trails using all of the modern "tools" are pretty boring most of the time for me BUT my wife loves them. My kids, 12 year old girls, like places with a nice mix of both old skool and new flow. Most of the places around here have developed to have both. I'm tired of people whining about go arounds and braiding, these features allow a group or family to ride together without overwhelming any particular member.

What everybody needs to remember is "you" are not the only user out there. For mt biking to continue it will be important for us to not alienate riders because a place is too easy or too hard. Of course there will be places that, due to the nature of the terrain, will be above the limits of some riders but a little bit of effort should allow for most places to acceptable to a variety of riders.

leroy jenkins
07-31-2011, 10:12 AM
uh... nope. I'm flat broke. and unemployed. nearly bankrupt. and to your unfunny suggestion -- I moved here with a 29k/yr job, not a 250k/yr annuity or trust fund. dig?

not enjoying the snark, Wendell. not at all. in fact I'm pretty fucking sick of nest-eggers fucking up western MT with their demands that things change to suit what they wish it was. if you want to live in a place that has certain qualities, yoy should do your research and move to the place that is the best fit -- not move to a place where you like 25% of the things about it and reshape the other 75%, fucking over the place's individuality in the bargain.

no satire or sarcasm in this post. I don't find humor in bankruptcy, poverty --nor especially in yuppie arrogance toward another's financial woes.

where'd you get the idea that I'm a rich guy who retired early? you and anyone else working that vein need to rethink.

Wow, when I thought you were a retired lawyer, I didn't care what you have to say, now that I know you are too hardcore to be financially successful, your opinion is suddenly valid to me. Please, tell me more about your views on life.

Yes there has been an influx of money into SW MT recently, which has coincided with a big push to limit mountain biking options, but I think it has less to do with these people's bank accounts and far more to do with the california city dweller brand of ultra liberal, lets change the world, make a difference (whether its good or bad in the long run, we just want to be part of something) mentality tempered by their ignorance of actual trail use concerns due to the fact that city dwellers like them never actually go out and use trails further than a half mile from town. The fact that these people have a desire to change a place I love and their motivation is clouded with ignorance of the effects of their actions is sad, but your assertion that no one ever attempt to change a place they love for the better is retarded.

I have met plenty of rich mnt bikers that were not posers. Some of which seemed to have made their money, some of which were born with it. I am going to go out on a limb here are say that maybe even MOST professional athletes of gravity sports (sports where there is no money to be made as an athlete) are trustafarians of some sort. They often still work hard to make ends meet, but no way would they be able to afford airfare around the world to ride helis for free just working at a fruit stand in the off season or doing a bit of landscaping. (which are specific examples taken from real life).

creaky fossil
07-31-2011, 10:55 AM
yeah leroy, from SLC you have a good handle on western MT. yeah. right.

californians are not the majority of influx here. midwesterners, OR, WA, AZ are.


your assertion that no one ever attempt to change a place they love for the better is retarded.

"better" = subjective

didn't say nobody changes things. said it's arrogant to change 75% of things after liking only 25% of things... because you can research a place and find a better fit.

eat my cock, rich boy

rideit
07-31-2011, 11:09 AM
Oh, Jeez, looks like I will have to start a new thread.

lph
07-31-2011, 11:11 AM
CF, this is one is just for you! This is from an update by a page on FB called 'build a whistler-style bike park at Kirkwood'. Here is their status update:

Will post new pics of our current bike park tonight. Come out next weekend and you'll be able to say "Yeah, I was there when it was still just a bunch of singletrack!"

Even that made my skin crawl.

BTW, as a disclaimer, I have never ridden the singletrack at kirkwood. I have ridden some of the trails along the back of kirkwood, which CF would probably love. Unpredicatable, unimproved, raw, high alpine single track. Easily some of the longest technical rides I have ever done.

Gripen
07-31-2011, 11:36 AM
uh... nope. I'm flat broke. and unemployed. nearly bankrupt. and to your unfunny suggestion -- I moved here with a 29k/yr job, not a 250k/yr annuity or trust fund. dig?

not enjoying the snark, Wendell. not at all. in fact I'm pretty fucking sick of nest-eggers fucking up western MT with their demands that things change to suit what they wish it was. if you want to live in a place that has certain qualities, yoy should do your research and move to the place that is the best fit -- not move to a place where you like 25% of the things about it and reshape the other 75%, fucking over the place's individuality in the bargain.

no satire or sarcasm in this post. I don't find humor in bankruptcy, poverty --nor especially in yuppie arrogance toward another's financial woes.

where'd you get the idea that I'm a rich guy who retired early? you and anyone else working that vein need to rethink.

Just like an manner-less gay guy. Loves giving it and hates taking it....

Let me take a guess, you live in Missoula don't you?

allTandA
07-31-2011, 11:41 AM
taker easy dude(s) after all it's christs' day for chrissakes

ilikecandy
07-31-2011, 02:05 PM
cant wait to see what they did to rim trail in the time ive been gone

i couldnt believe when they filled in that rock garden on the glass mountain section, which is never going to be flowy anyway

leroy jenkins
08-01-2011, 10:17 AM
yeah leroy, from SLC you have a good handle on western MT. yeah. right.

californians are not the majority of influx here. midwesterners, OR, WA, AZ are.



"better" = subjective

didn't say nobody changes things. said it's arrogant to change 75% of things after liking only 25% of things... because you can research a place and find a better fit.

eat my cock, rich boy

I have not always lived in SLC.

I have a question, if you see someone trying to 'improve' your montucky trails, how do you find out what percentage of the local experience they have accepted and how much they are trying to change? Do you follow them around for a week before deciding whether to bitch them out for trying to change more than 25% of things? If everyone followed your logic, there would be far far fewer great trails in general, and far more boring fire roads covered in loam and scree. In the Roaring Fork Valley, there are very very few improved trails with high berms and even less with any kind of artificial features, but there are still some of my most favorite trails there of all time. The fact is though, not everywhere has the natural terrain to have awesome natural trails on. Sypes Canyon in Bozeman is pretty freaking awesome, but that kind of trail is a rarity, and short.

Don't remember meeting anyone from AZ when I lived in Bozeman. I do remember there being plenty of displaced midwesterners, but I seriously doubt those are the people supporting the wilderness push, that is mostly the Cali folks.

Seriously though, you are a kook.

kidwoo
08-01-2011, 10:25 AM
cant wait to see what they did to rim trail in the time ive been gone

i couldnt believe when they filled in that rock garden on the glass mountain section, which is never going to be flowy anyway

They didn't fill it in, they completely rerouted the trail. (Unless you're talking about something they did on the new reroute, I quit riding it after that)

And as shaled up as that old route was, it flowed WAY better than the shit they replaced it with. That was one of my favorite descents and that reroute just blows. Ever notice how they placed big boulders on the inside of all the dumb little tight switchbacks they put in? Built by mountain bikers, completely non-conducive to mountainbiking.

ilikecandy
08-01-2011, 03:24 PM
They didn't fill it in, they completely rerouted the trail. (Unless you're talking about something they did on the new reroute, I quit riding it after that)

And as shaled up as that old route was, it flowed WAY better than the shit they replaced it with. That was one of my favorite descents and that reroute just blows. Ever notice how they placed big boulders on the inside of all the dumb little tight switchbacks they put in? Built by mountain bikers, completely non-conducive to mountainbiking.

nah, i have been gone for the last 5 years, but not too long before i left was when they filled in that rock garden which to me was the highlight of that section

but im not surprised. it was pretty clear from the changes that were happening about the time i left that it was only going to get worse

creaky fossil
08-01-2011, 03:47 PM
Seriously though....

hilarious ramble.

so, those who represent views you dislike are "kooks"

gotcha

and those who try to see long-term are... what? insane nutjobs?

you're a regular genius :rolleyes2

creaky fossil
08-01-2011, 03:51 PM
Let me take a guess, you live in Missoula don't you?

let me guess ... you rep a shitty ski don't you?

Gripen
08-01-2011, 09:33 PM
^
That's what I thought.


I moved here with a 29k/yr job, not a 250k/yr annuity or trust fund. dig?


I can smell the smug, arrogant, narrow mindedness that unfortunately permeates that wonderful city, especially from transplants such as yourself.



not enjoying the snark, Wendell. not at all. in fact I'm pretty fucking sick of nest-eggers fucking up western MT with their demands that things change to suit what they wish it was. if you want to live in a place that has certain qualities, yoy should do your research and move to the place that is the best fit -- not move to a place where you like 25% of the things about it and reshape the other 75%, fucking over the place's individuality in the bargain.


Way to call the kettle black asshole. Move somewhere and expect it NOT to change? Holy hell. Most of the Bitteroot/Flathead/Kootenai area is dying to try to change just so people can survive. Count yourself lucky to live in a place like Missoula where things are nice enough you can bitch about shit like that, or better yet take a little drive up or down 93 a see how many of those communities are struggling just to exist.

Hugh Conway
08-01-2011, 09:59 PM
Most of the Bitteroot/Flathead/Kootenai area is dying to try to change just so people can survive.

That's the history of Montana

carpathian
08-02-2011, 12:29 PM
CF you'd hate this trail:

Where shall be build trail today?

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/262120_10150382371253289_643058288_10342255_815445 9_n.jpg

We finally got to really test ride The Fridays.

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/261535_10150382359188289_643058288_10342154_808103 5_n.jpg

Left turns

http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/264960_10150382357448289_643058288_10342144_303428 8_n.jpg

http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/264960_10150382357433289_643058288_10342141_769220 0_n.jpg

Right turns

http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/264960_10150382357443289_643058288_10342143_654540 9_n.jpg

http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/264960_10150382357438289_643058288_10342142_197421 4_n.jpg

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/264960_10150382357428289_643058288_10342140_595124 7_n.jpg

Slashing with all the room in the world!

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/261535_10150382359173289_643058288_10342151_798479 6_n.jpg

http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/261535_10150382359168289_643058288_10342150_685917 1_n.jpg

Jeramy build this entire trail turn for turn in three days with the mini excavator.
Reaping the rewards

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/261535_10150382359183289_643058288_10342153_705866 0_n.jpg

Stamp of approval!

http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/261535_10150382359178289_643058288_10342152_687413 5_n.jpg

I know, I know, for as stunning as the view may be the people want jumps, jumps, JUMPS!

While Jeramy has been soaking the view up in the alpine I have been slaving on the other machine in the sweltering alder jungle of lower Tanaka to bring you jumps.

Here is a soon to be landing for the 10th of ten jumps that will be ready for testing next week!

http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/262120_10150382371258289_643058288_10342256_390988 9_n.jpg

(MRA spam)

Danno
08-04-2011, 02:10 PM
I read through a couple of pages, but couldn't wade through more.

Maybe it's the lawyer in me, but I need some definition of terms. Can someone tell me what the fuck is the definition of a "flow trail". I mean, I loves me some flowy downhill, but I get the feeling that a "flow trail" isn't just a flowy section of trail, as I might describe it. And it seems to have an understood definition, as used in the article and here, but I don't know what the fuck it is.

toast2266
08-04-2011, 02:19 PM
I read through a couple of pages, but couldn't wade through more.

Maybe it's the lawyer in me, but I need some definition of terms. Can someone tell me what the fuck is the definition of a "flow trail". I mean, I loves me some flowy downhill, but I get the feeling that a "flow trail" isn't just a flowy section of trail, as I might describe it. And it seems to have an understood definition, as used in the article and here, but I don't know what the fuck it is.

Not sure if a "Flow Country Trial™" is the same as a regular "flow trail," but here's the definition from Hans Rey's website:


Flow Country trails are flowy, purpose-built singletrails for mountain bikers of any skill level or for any kind of mountain bike, no matter whether beginner or expert or on a hardtail XC or downhill bike; and especially for the ever growing section of All Mountain/ Enduro riders. This mountain bike specific trail will provide a common playground for both worlds of riders, the endurance driven riders and the Freeriders. The tracks shall neither be extreme, nor too steep or dangerous, small berms and rollers shall provide the addicting rollercoaster feeling and sensation.

Flow Country trails go predominantly downhill with short uphill sections, if the terrain permits, to naturally reduce the speed and to enhance the rollercoaster character. Ideally, a good biker would not have to do too much braking or pedaling. Flow Country trails are narrow, natural singletrails (1–3 ft. wide), with diverse and appropriate elements such as; berms, rollers, rocks, roots, small jumps and drops which should also be roll-able or can be avoided. In certain areas the trail can be a bit more technical demanding, steeper, rougher, or more narrow, but will still be easy to navigate for all riders. Potentially with some pedal sections and short climbs.

A mix between a Bike Park, a Cross Country trail and a long pumptrack.

The phrase “Flow Country” was coined by Hans Rey and first realized by Diddie Schneider in Livigno (Italy). Although there are similar trails already in existence with these characteristics, there has never been a word to describe them. Flow Country not only combines most mountain biking disciplines, but it shall also become a standard for mountain bikers and biking destinations worldwide. Only officially recognized trails, which fulfill all criteria will get the official stamp of approval: “Officially recognized Flow Country Trail”, which will be granted in the future by an independent organization such as, for example, IMBA (International Mountain Bike Association).

lph
08-04-2011, 02:36 PM
^^^^that definition perfectly describes the 'Armstrong Connector Trail' and the Re-routes of Corral trail in tahoe that have been completed in the last couple years.

If the Armstrong connector trail is intended to be a flow trail than consider me a fan of 'flow'.

knumbskull
08-04-2011, 03:38 PM
Flow Country, like Flavor Country but without the cancer.

creaky fossil
08-04-2011, 05:11 PM
You can smell the smug, arrogant, narrow mindedness that unfortunately permeates myself.

indeed I can.

the rest of your post is ignorant and wrong about ME, Zimoolie, the Root... but clearly shows YOUR biases.

thanks for failing at everything!

the solution for struggling areas is not "development." only someone ignorant of what's happening in America now would believe "development" is the winning game.

so, nice ignorance you got there.

FYI: I worked with low-income Montanans from 2007-2011, from E of the Divide to the W side. to suggest I don't know their plight is a fucking lie; to say I don't care about it... almost enough to start a fight.

get a fucking clue already -- you're the arrogant one; you're projecting.

creaky fossil
08-04-2011, 05:18 PM
narrow, natural singletrails (1–3 ft. wide),

big diff betw 1' and 3'

huge

powder11
08-04-2011, 06:43 PM
I read through a couple of pages, but couldn't wade through more.

Maybe it's the lawyer in me, but I need some definition of terms. Can someone tell me what the fuck is the definition of a "flow trail". I mean, I loves me some flowy downhill, but I get the feeling that a "flow trail" isn't just a flowy section of trail, as I might describe it. And it seems to have an understood definition, as used in the article and here, but I don't know what the fuck it is.

look at the pics above. pretty much a flow trail.

Jethro
08-05-2011, 08:20 AM
http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/261535_10150382359183289_643058288_10342153_705866 0_n.jpg

Stamp of approval!

By Hans Reys' definition of a 1-3" wide trail, where does this fall?

carpathian
08-05-2011, 08:28 PM
This trail was built with dual purpose in mind. Wide enough for big mountain shredding and also for quad access.

We have a bunch of trails up on this high alpine bench that patrol needs to be able to get their quad into, so that was our original intent.

http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/270793_10150375519538289_643058288_10257249_381712 _n.jpg

Jethro
08-05-2011, 10:59 PM
This trail was built with dual purpose in mind. Wide enough for big mountain shredding and also for quad access.

We have a bunch of trails up on this high alpine bench that patrol needs to be able to get their quad into, so that was our original intent.

http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/270793_10150375519538289_643058288_10257249_381712 _n.jpg
If they allow those vile machines on the trail, is there any chance they let dirt bikes on it? That would be really cool!

carpathian
08-06-2011, 12:45 AM
^^ Sorry, should clarify that THEY are bike patrollers and they use the quad to haul people to safety after unfortunate accidents.

http://www.eeresq.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/All-Terrain-Rescue-Trailer_800X525.jpg

And yeah, sarcasm or not this looks pretty fucking fun!

http://thekneeslider.com/images/motorcyclehillclimb.jpg

Jethro
08-06-2011, 08:43 AM
As a mountain biker, and a dirt biker, I love a good singletrack. Once ATVs start riding on single track, It gets all fucked up an widened and I get all butthurt over it. Now the new trail ideal is apparently exactly what I despise, a four to six food wide road. Minimum.

In the photo of the ATV, notice how the vegetation just drops off on the upper side of the trail, There is no way that slope is not going to try to equalize itself to a stable angle of repose. Not really impressed with the sustainability of that trail construction.

carpathian
08-07-2011, 02:27 AM
Sustain-a-what? That is the beauty of working trail crew with instant access on a day to day basis, you can go back and keep working on trails as they need it. We're not building roman roads that are going to last 500 years. I know, the top edge of the trail needs to slope back etc etc. as per IMBA

This is A trail on the mountain. Not all trails are 4-6 foot wide. Then again, what is wrong with a wide trail? You and CF sound like those people who insist on skiing on skinny skis because fat skis are too easy. I prefer shredding.

Jethro
08-07-2011, 07:51 AM
Sustain-a-what? That is the beauty of working trail crew with instant access on a day to day basis, you can go back and keep working on trails as they need it. We're not building roman roads that are going to last 500 years. I know, the top edge of the trail needs to slope back etc etc. as per IMBA

This is A trail on the mountain. Not all trails are 4-6 foot wide. Then again, what is wrong with a wide trail? You and CF sound like those people who insist on skiing on skinny skis because fat skis are too easy. I prefer shredding.

Nope, I like fat skis also. And singletrack. Those on-mountain trails are almost bike path wide, so of course people can ride them faster. As a skiing analogy, I can ski buff wide groomers faster than narrow couloirs. There is no right or wrong, just personal preferences. I am not interested in lift served downhills. That is what my dirtbike is for.

rideit
08-07-2011, 10:23 AM
I usually take my dirt bike up on the tram.

It's my 'Sit-ski'...

Jethro
08-07-2011, 10:32 AM
I usually take my dirt bike up on the tram.

It's my 'Sit-ski'...
The somewhat obvious point being that if I do not want to pedal up a hill, I can use a dirt bike for a similar ride.

rideit
08-07-2011, 10:48 AM
Yeah, but my KTM was so expensive, I don't like to strain the engine on the uphills.

Jethro
08-07-2011, 12:03 PM
Yeah, but my KTM was so expensive, I don't like to strain the engine on the uphills.
I bought my KTM 300 new of the floor for $1700 less than the list price of my S works enduro. It is amazing how much more you get for your money when you buy a motorcycle. Redneck vs yuppy pricing

Jethro
08-07-2011, 06:38 PM
I did not read the article close enough. I missed the part where they were officially sanctioned trails designed expressly for bikers and not poorly designed and hacked out trails. They look like fun even though they are really wide. Ignore my earlier posts

marshalolson
08-07-2011, 08:32 PM
there are trails that flow - as in single track that are well built that don't have super tight switch backs in them that force you to slam on the brakes thru a bunch of eroded out brake bumps and destroy the trail, and there are "flow trails" which are generally 4 foot wide 6 foot tall berm runs.

both are fun.

i'll take a narrow, tight, rocky, steep, long run with well designed corners that allow you to maintain speed (hans ray's flow country trail), any day of the week over the roller coaster ride designed to make intermediates feel like super heroes (i.e. resort "flow trails")

rideit
08-07-2011, 09:22 PM
^^^^^AMEN^^^^^

Just curious, who else here has been seriously addicted to singletrack for over 25 years? Things are SO much better now, it's not even funny. We rode crappy trails all over the country (and had a blast) because we didn't know no better...

Jethro
08-07-2011, 09:32 PM
I bought my first mtn bike in June of 1987 after my sophmore year in college. It was a Schwinn High Sierra with rollercam brakes. That was 24 years ago, so I am not quite there.

rideit
08-07-2011, 09:34 PM
No, you definitely count as a retro-grouch.

Anybody remember the 'Retro-Grouch-Moto-Club'?

If it ain't Moto...

As an aside remember when CB-Aspen was actually considered a...fun ride?

Blech.

Jethro
08-07-2011, 10:00 PM
It wasn't more than five years ago that I did an over and back for lunch each year. We rode over to CB two years ago for my bachelor party. It was mid Sept and we rode back to Aspen the next day in a blizzard. Other than for the meal and nice night out, I am done riding shitty jeep roads between the two towns.

carpathian
08-08-2011, 08:01 PM
I bought my first mtn bike in June of 1987 after my sophmore year in college. It was a Schwinn High Sierra with rollercam brakes. That was 24 years ago, so I am not quite there.

I was 7 and my bike was a Schwinn Predator. It had a sweet BMX number plate, #18 yo.

marshalolson
08-08-2011, 09:02 PM
^^^^^AMEN^^^^^

Just curious, who else here has been seriously addicted to singletrack for over 25 years? Things are SO much better now, it's not even funny. We rode crappy trails all over the country (and had a blast) because we didn't know no better...

:D i used to crush lake wingra park, and spin "pond laps" (ie ride around in circles through the marshes with foot paths on the land) on a bmx bike 25 years ago. but not seriously addicted at that point. too busy winning skid contests and jumping curbs. ;)

Danno
08-09-2011, 08:56 AM
there are trails that flow - as in single track that are well built that don't have super tight switch backs in them that force you to slam on the brakes thru a bunch of eroded out brake bumps and destroy the trail, and there are "flow trails" which are generally 4 foot wide 6 foot tall berm runs.

both are fun.

i'll take a narrow, tight, rocky, steep, long run with well designed corners that allow you to maintain speed (hans ray's flow country trail), any day of the week over the roller coaster ride designed to make intermediates feel like super heroes (i.e. resort "flow trails")

I think that is what is confusing me. I don't think I've ever ridden the latter "flow trail" (never ridden at a resort) but the first kind sounds like my style.

shirk
08-11-2011, 06:32 PM
MQQWI3t2ONs

New berm corner being built on Bobsled.

carpathian
08-29-2011, 10:20 PM
We have about 12.25 miles of dh trails at Alyeska now with about 9.5 built this year.

Different types of flow in action:

http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s720x720/295896_10150441024838289_643058288_10980810_105891 6_n.jpg
http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/295896_10150441024843289_643058288_10980811_958293 _n.jpg

This guys wants to hit it

http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/311395_10150439994043289_643058288_10968297_159544 0_n.jpg

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/295980_10150439986853289_643058288_10968200_375414 6_n.jpg

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s720x720/311395_10150439994038289_643058288_10968296_780648 8_n.jpg

http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/311395_10150439994048289_643058288_10968298_692288 2_n.jpg

http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/295980_10150439986843289_643058288_10968198_276059 7_n.jpg

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s720x720/295980_10150439986848289_643058288_10968199_523311 9_n.jpg

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Dantheman
08-30-2011, 09:04 AM
It is amazing how much more you get for your money when you buy a motorcycle. Redneck vs yuppy pricing

I'm sure the redneck/yuppy pricing is partially responsible, but I think a large part of it is that MTBs need to be light whereas dirtbikes don't. Generally, light and strong = expensive. Dirtbikes also seem to be a larger market which I'm sure also pushes costs down.

Jethro
08-30-2011, 04:40 PM
I'm sure the redneck/yuppy pricing is partially responsible, but I think a large part of it is that MTBs need to be light whereas dirtbikes don't. Generally, light and strong = expensive. Dirtbikes also seem to be a larger market which I'm sure also pushes costs down.

I am sure the lightweight components of bikes play a large part in the price of some components. There is no doubt that my KTM's cro-moly frame is way less pricy than my CF Enduro SL frame. On the other hand, a couple of derailleurs, a chain and some levers are quite a bit cheaper than the dirtbike's motor and transmission. High end wheels are about the same, but dirtbike suspension is a bit pricier. If you go weight weenie on a dirt bike, with minimalistic cnc machined parts and Ti hardware, you could easily go over 10-12 grand. I guess I was comparing run of the mill dirt bikes to high end mtn bikes.

Jethro
10-15-2011, 08:14 PM
I just rode the Gravity Logic trail in Snowmass for the first time today. Had a great time! It was my first time on one of these trails, and I can see it being addictive.