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View Full Version : Sooooooooo........do I need/want a second bike?



lph
05-31-2004, 07:23 PM
Right now I have a SC Heckler set up as an aggressive xc bike. I have the 5th element in the rear and a fox talas RLC in the front. So, i basically got 5"/5" travel. I friggin love the bike. It does great on technical climbs and long climbs. On the descents it will soak up most of the average sized hits, but when I am faced with bigger drops on really steap terrain, it is a bit overmatched. It seems like this is due to a combination of the geometry and the front suspension. Also, for back comfort, i bought it in an xlarge frame even though i am only a little over 6'. The frame size, i believe, also somewhat limits its handling in real technical terrain.

I am triing to decide if i want to take the plunge into a more downhill oriented bike, more of a slacker geometry, maybe 7" of travel front and rear and possibly a triple clamp fork. Yet still something I could pedal up hill, keeping the weight below 40lbs.

I guess i am looking for advice on frames and suspensions primarily, but any other advice on freeride bikes is appreciated. I have started reading some of the stuff on mtbr.com but i know that a bunch of you do some downhill racing and have freeride bikes.

Also, durability is key, I bought the heckler cause I ride hard and I ride alot, and weigh about 210, however, the bike is in the shop now because there is already some play b/t the frame and rear triangle and some other pieces that are coming loose.

Any input is appreciated.

zion zig zag
05-31-2004, 07:36 PM
check out the yeti as-x. i friggin love it, it climbs great, and descends even better. with Dh tires and tubes it weighs right around 40 lbs. 7.5" in the back and 7" up front.

altagirl
05-31-2004, 07:41 PM
I have a 5"/5.75" travel XC/trail bike and a DH bike. There are a lot of good options out there for a longer travel bike, and I like having two very different bikes. (I have a Giant DH Team and a Yeti 575.) I wanted something that climbs well but is still fun on descents and a real DH bike for lift served/shuttled riding/racing.

In your situation, I'd check out a VP Free, Yeti AS-X... Definitely don't go too big with the frame. My first DH bike was too big for me - going to a smaller frame made handling tech sections and cornering so much easier.

lph
05-31-2004, 07:50 PM
Yup, saw the as-x at my lbs tonite, guy who owns it works at the shop and loves it. has the sherman up front and he did a 30 mile, up/down, xc ride recently and said the bike was great.

I have also read some good things about the vpfree, particularly that it can be pedaled uphill.

i think i will probably end up doing a combo of car shuttle and climbing. the guy i would be primarily riding with has a stinky with a super T up front, which amazingly, he pedals up hill almost as fast as i do on the heckler. :confused:

Plakespear
05-31-2004, 08:00 PM
You also need to get yourself a road bike.

altagirl
05-31-2004, 08:05 PM
I had one of those and sold it. Just don't feel safe riding on the road around here... DH is dangerous, but the injuries are pretty much guaranteed to be my own fault, not because some idiot was too busy on the phone or with their 12 kids in their Expedition to pay attention to the road. Maybe if I lived out in the middle of nowhere I'd get one again.

Crinkle
05-31-2004, 08:25 PM
[as-x hijack] I got a chance to 2 miles of nice rolling trail the other day on my friend's AS-X, he had the Fox 100mm fork on it with XT and XTR componets. That thing climbed amazing. I never realized how much drivetrain/shock power loss I had on my bike compared to his. It was a solid climber, also climbed like it weighed 22 lbs, instead of the 26-27 that is was. The thing that freaked me out about it was, it goes where you point, but it was also nice, that it went exactly where you pointed it.

AG, does the 575 ride similar to the AS-X in any way?? I loved the way it climbed, but it felt like i was decending on a razor blade, which I was not too fond of. My friend has been riding it for over a year and he loves to climb, but is pretty timid while decending. I can completely understand from my short test ride why. Too jittery and over responsive, but man what a climbing machine.

zion zig zag
05-31-2004, 08:49 PM
wow, Crinkle, I can't imagine the way an AS-X would handle with only a 100mm fork. I've got 170mm up front and I would think that would take out the twitchiness.

bagtagley
05-31-2004, 08:52 PM
26-27 lbs is uber light for an AS-X. Not trying to call you out, but are you sure that's what you rode?

lph, best thing you can do is test ride. You can't go wrong with most of the current long-travel, 3 ring bikes. If you want simple, but not quite as plush, there are a ton of single pivot bikes that fit your specs: Yeti AS-X, SC Bullit, Orange Patriot or Double-D, etc. Linkage bikes are a bit more plush, but typically cost more and require a bit more maintenance: Banshee Scream, SC VPFree, Intense VPP.

I can't say enough good things about the Bullit (ride, price, reliability), but most freeride bikes out there are quite capable, you just need to figure out which one fits you the best.

altagirl
05-31-2004, 09:27 PM
Yeah, your review leaves me totally confused. I can't even figure out how anyone would get an AS-X to weigh under 30 lbs, let alone understand why someone would put a 100mm fork on it. I'm also assuming it must have had ultra light skinny tires on it to get it that light. The combination of wrong fork and skinny tires is (I'm sure) where the twitchiness came from. But I honestly am left thinking you must have rode something else because that setup seriously makes no sense - who would have 7" rear travel and 4" in the front? Are you sure it wasn't an AS-R (which is a step more XC from the 575)?

My 575 climbs very well, better than the AS-X because it's lighter than Mr.AG's AS-X by probably 10 lbs. Both pedal well with a 5th element though, the rest is just a matter of weight. I think the 575 does exceptionally well downhill considering the light weight, comparatively narrow bars and smaller tires - I'm still running the stock 2.1 High Rollers, which are the skinniest tire I've used in years. I'm thinking I'll put a 2.3 up front once they wear out, but I've been pleasantly surprised by it's decending ability. And as far as climbing goes - before I got this bike, I hated, I mean HATED to climb. Now I actually enjoy it - a lot at times. That's a serious compliment to this bike. It's definitely a compromise from the AS-X going downhill, but I figure I have a DH bike when I really want to go crazy...

lph
05-31-2004, 10:33 PM
Plake,

got a road bike which i don't use often for the same reasons that AG alluded to. My first ride of the year was this saturday and i was scared shitless both up and down thanks to hundreds of crotch rockets passing me at 70mph, trucks buzzing me and the general memorial weekend traffic on the mountain passes. :eek: Although, I am riding around lake tahoe this coming weekend, can't wait. thousands of people doing it. there is strength in numbers, we get a lane to ourselves. :D

bagtagley,

don't know much about 'how' suspensions work, but I do want a bike that is a little more plush than the heckler. The heckler is great for the big hits, but sometimes going fast over alot of smaller hits (which is common in tahoe) it feels a little rough. So, the as-x is a single pivot? that is good to know.

Also, what do you guys think about some of the new long travel single crown forks vs triple crown forks? I feel like if i am going to go freeride and make this second bike significantly different from the heckler i should be looking at a triple clamp.

Tyrone Shoelaces
05-31-2004, 10:46 PM
all this advice is great, but....whatever you do, if you want this sucker below 40 lbs....leave the basket, streamers, and banana seat on the Heckler :D

lph
06-01-2004, 08:43 AM
Originally posted by Tyrone Shoelaces
all this advice is great, but....whatever you do, if you want this sucker below 40 lbs....leave the basket, streamers, and banana seat on the Heckler :D

the whole point of this bike is downhill speed, which will make the streamers look even cooler. Therefore, a new set of streamers is in the budget for the new bike.

Crinkle
06-01-2004, 08:52 AM
yup, I'm a retard, was drinking while posting, not a good idea. It was an ASR. my appologies for the confusion

Viva
06-01-2004, 09:02 AM
Originally posted by Crinkle
yup, I'm a retard, was drinking while posting, not a good idea. It was an ASR. my appologies for the confusion

Nothing retarded about that- in fact, you're quite talented. I have to put my beer down whenever I post.

altagirl
06-01-2004, 09:04 AM
Makes sense then. AS-R is more of an XC race bike, it's built for climbing. A 575 is definitely going to be an improvement for the descents. And an AS-X is going to feel like a DH bike in comparison to an AS-R.

Telenater
06-01-2004, 09:53 AM
Ehhh, who needs a high travel bike.....

It's all about picking your way through the tough lines.

altagirl
06-01-2004, 09:56 AM
Have you ever ridden a DH bike?

Telenater
06-01-2004, 10:07 AM
Originally posted by altagirl
Have you ever ridden a DH bike?

Nope.

But, I probably also should have included an emoticon or two in there to convey my feeble attempt at humor.

I suspect LPH would have seen humor in my statement, but then, we've ridden together and he's seen how I ride.

altagirl
06-01-2004, 10:10 AM
Gotcha. :) I was just going to say that while I like climbing and XC, riding a DH bike is like fat skis on a powder day. If you can afford two bikes, it's so much fun....

hev
06-01-2004, 10:21 AM
With the 1.5 steerer I am thinking about going with an ASX as a DH bike. my LBS actually said I can get a factory tour and ride one in a variety of set ups on some local trails down in golden. I can get a better deal on some other bikes but I think that kind of treatment is pretty damn cool and may be worth a few extra bucks.

...so something to think about if you ever in the frontrange area.

lph
06-01-2004, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by hev
With the 1.5 steerer I am thinking about going with an ASX as a DH bike. my LBS actually said I can get a factory tour and ride one in a variety of set ups on some local trails down in golden. I can get a better deal on some other bikes but I think that kind of treatment is pretty damn cool and may be worth a few extra bucks.

...so something to think about if you ever in the frontrange area.

excuse my ignorance, what is a 1.5 steerer? :(

will it be a DH bike you can pedal up 1500 vert? What kind of front fork are you thinking?

There is nowhere that i know of in tahoe (south lake) anyways where i can demo a bike. i will have to check the northshore to see what they have going as far as demos.

AG, ya, when I buy this bike it will be a large frame (which is probably right for me) I don't want to oversize myself and end up with too big a frame.

hev
06-01-2004, 11:53 AM
1.5 steerer is an oversized head tube used for greater strnegth on DH frames. the ASX is built with a 1.5 steerer wich is designed for a heavy/strong fork set up. ideally i'd be running a sherman slider or a breakout plus (wich it comes with). either way it will probably weigh about 40+ built up. so definately not a bike you take a fast pace xc ride, but it should be just borderline light enough to do some slow climbing. a 5th element shock and a a slider fork help a lot with this as well. I am not planning on doing much/any xc riding with it, but shuttles wich require some climbing should be ideal.

lph
06-01-2004, 02:15 PM
OK that makes some sense. The AS-X i saw yesterday had the 1.5 steerer and the sherman fork on there. it was the one that you could change the travel from 7" to 6". is that what the 'slider fork' is?

Hev, i would be keeping the heckler for long rides and xc rides and using that the vast majority of the time.

So your build, even with the sherman single crown it is still gonna come in close to 40lbs? definitely only for small slow climbs, huh?

bagtagley
06-01-2004, 03:21 PM
1.5 ht is only really necessary if you plan to run a long travel (6-7") single crown fork, and a Manitou at that since nobody else makes forks w/ 1.5 steerer tubes. If you plan to run a dual crown fork, then the ht size won't matter...all DC forks are 1.125.

I personally am a fan of DC forks, but that's mostly because I also DH race my freeride bike. Though the bike is pretty raked out, it climbs really well. I'd definitely recommend a DC, but I must mention that 1) I've never ridden a 6"+ travel SC fork 2) I've had enough bad experiences w/ Manitou in the past that I have trouble acknowledging the vast improvements they've made to their forks in recent years.

zion zig zag
06-01-2004, 03:53 PM
My AS-x comes in right at 40 lbs. with the single crown sherman breakout plus, but that is with wire bead 2.5 tires and heavy DH tubes. But still, it climbs so well that I would swear it's lighter. I'm not gonna win any xc races on it, but I don't dread climbs either, just get in a low gear and go. And I think the travel changes from 7" to 5".
If you put on a marz jr.t I guess that would bump up the weight a few pounds. Bagtagley, what improvement would a DC make? I'm guessing stiffer, better tracking, plusher? The breakout tracks pretty well now but I've never ridden a DC fork.

bagtagley
06-01-2004, 06:03 PM
Yeah, I'm not sure. I would imagine that the 888 would be stiffer than an sc fork, but I really don't know about some of the lighter-duty dc forks. I have heard that Manitou's new freeride stuff is uber-stiff, so who knows?

The Z1 is the "biggest" sc fork I've ridden, and it's a noodle compared to the dc forks I've tried. However, it's not in the same league as the Shermans or even the Z150, so not really a good comparison I wouldn't think.

lph
06-01-2004, 07:33 PM
been doing my research and thanks for your guys advice.

right now, i am thinking of definitely a dc fork. i want this bike to be significantly different from the heckler. i am thinking either the super T pro or the manitou slider. with the slider it sounds like the spv dampening is really nice. so, i am leaning towards the manitou.

as far as the frame, i am really leaning towards the yeti as-x i have read nothing but good things. the other bike i was considering strongly was the vpfree, but again, i want to mix it up a little, i got the sc heckler, i know it will likely be a long wait for the vpfree.

123bikes is supposed to be one of the best LBS here in tahoe, they do a lot of web business as well, i think it is time for a visit to start the dialog of getting a build going, only problem, never been in the store before, so, i might see if the LBS that i use wants to build this for me. they are much more likely to give me a significant locals discount as i give them alot of business.

couple other questions: (possibly stupid)

1) are avid mechanical 'enough' brake or do i go for the hayes hydraulic with the 8" rotors?

2) what wheelset would you guys recommend? do people run tubeless on freeride/dh bikes?

whaddya think, can i get this bike to come in at 40lbs and under $2500?????

:)

zion zig zag
06-01-2004, 09:24 PM
I'd go with the 8" hydraulic.
I've heard that the tubeless does'nt work as well as with the big, wide tires.
call Krispy at go-ride (http://www.go-ride.com/prod_frames_yeti.html#asx) . The kit he builds them with is good and he will tweak anything you want. he really knows his stuff and will give you advice where you need it. The link above mentions a $300 in store credit, i think he'll just knock that off the price. plus, you would'nt get charged tax would you?

Damn, we should get a maggot discount at that place. Mr. AG sent me there and since then I've sent two more.

lph
06-01-2004, 09:31 PM
arrrrrrrrgh, well spoke to my LBS, one of the guys has the AS-X and says because of the 1.5 headset it is pointless to put a dc fork on there. the 1.5 headset is made specifically for those long travel sc manitou forks to add stiffness. there are no other forks that will fit without a headset reducer. although i will have to check on the manitou slider.

so, they are pushing me towards a stinky dee-luxe which is a pretty good price point, out the door at 2500 or so, comes with the junior T. gotta check it out. thing about kona's they are so damn heavy. even kona's brochure gives the stinky a 1 out of 5 for pedaling.

they are saying that the stinky dee luxe is the best production free ride bike i will find and that to 'build' anyother frame up will cost significantly more.

altagirl
06-01-2004, 10:36 PM
I think the AS-X is close to the same price range and that fork is pretty bomber, but is more versatile. Mr.AG just called me from Boise and said he just finished an XC ride (with a kick ass descent), locked the fork down for the climb, which it made it easy, then easily cleaned a rock garden that's been tricky in the past on the way down. And then he said he might consider using his AS-X instead of his DH bike for some of the easier DH races... It's a pretty versatile bike. I think the fork is probably plenty stiff, especially with the 1.5.

Oh, and for your other questions: I'd go with hydraulics/8" rotors. Hayes, Hope, or XT. Don't know of anyone riding tubeless with their DH/FR bike.

White Chocolate
06-01-2004, 11:09 PM
Originally posted by lph
arrrrrrrrgh, well spoke to my LBS, one of the guys has the AS-X and says because of the 1.5 headset it is pointless to put a dc fork on there. the 1.5 headset is made specifically for those long travel sc manitou forks to add stiffness. there are no other forks that will fit without a headset reducer. although i will have to check on the manitou slider.

so, they are pushing me towards a stinky dee-luxe which is a pretty good price point, out the door at 2500 or so, comes with the junior T. gotta check it out. thing about kona's they are so damn heavy. even kona's brochure gives the stinky a 1 out of 5 for pedaling.

they are saying that the stinky dee luxe is the best production free ride bike i will find and that to 'build' anyother frame up will cost significantly more.

Tell the guy at the bike shop to piss off. Double vs. Single crown is a personal preference, the 1.5 allows you to do both. Pointless my ass. and no shit that there aren't other forks that will fit, that's why there are adapters. It isn't a big deal. seriously. The guy at your bike shop is a tool.

lph
06-01-2004, 11:36 PM
AG, thanks for the all the input it is helping alot. I have sort of convinced myself that i want the dc fork up front. seems like most of the FR/DH bikes come with the hydraulic standard.

WC, I totally agree. He is a nice guy, but you are right it is just a matter of a simple adapter. The more i think about it, the more i am confused about why he would push me away from yeti, just cause i said i wanted a dc fork. :confused:

ya, tap, i was just on mtbr triing to get some ideas on other makes. i will check out the norco.

damn expensive hobby!!!

Particle
06-02-2004, 12:06 PM
lph-
get the AS-X. As far as build quality goes, it's hard to beat a Yeti. They are beautiful bikes.

And, get a Super T Pro. Light, 7" travel, SWEET fork. I used to run the 6" version on my Big Hit. I sold it and now have a Z1; while I love the suspension quality on the Z1 (same internals as Super T), there's nothing like a DC fork for just PLOWING over everything in your way. The SC definitely gets thrown around noticeably more by loose rocks, etc.

p.s. and if you REALLY want to spend some bank on a DH bike that can get to the top of a climb, check out the Foes Fly. I've got a Foes FXR, and the thing is an incredible trail bike. If I had the $$$, I'd love a Fly. Or maybe their new 7.5" trailbike, the Inferno.

lph
06-02-2004, 02:22 PM
that might be the call particle. sounds like the junior T is getting panned on mtbr.com. yet the super T is getting much better reviews.

actually i am triing not to break the bank on this bike, i did that with the heckler. this bike has gotta come in alot cheaper, preferably 2500 or less.

it sounds like the kona and yeti will come in pretty similar in weights with the super T. i wonder if they will pedal considerably differently. also, have to see what kind of price point we are talking on those two bikes with similar components.

hev
06-02-2004, 02:40 PM
my hunch is that the asx is going to pedal alot better than the kona.

here's a link to a slider review, another good fork for you to consider

http://www.mtbreview.com/reviews/2004_front_shocks/product_122915.shtml

lph
06-02-2004, 04:18 PM
Originally posted by hev
my hunch is that the asx is going to pedal alot better than the kona.

here's a link to a slider review, another good fork for you to consider

http://www.mtbreview.com/reviews/2004_front_shocks/product_122915.shtml

that was the fork i was leaning towards until the guy at my LBS said the new manitous are better than the last couple years but still shitty. wouldn't know if from the reviews on mtbr.com though. :rolleyes:

and ya, i would guess the asx will pedal better too, which is why i went into my lbs last night and said i wanted to do an asx with a sherman slider. i left 40 minutes later with a kona catalog. it is hard when you really don't have the knowledge or experience. it took me long enough to learn about buying a xc/trail bike. this is like starting over on a whole new sport. its funny i am actually nervous about my first ride on whatever i get even though i am a decent rider. go figure.

bagtagley
06-02-2004, 07:38 PM
Whatever you do, don't let somebody talk you into buying a bike that you're not interested in. I have a friend who just bought a Stinky D, and though it's a very nice bike, I think you'd be a lot happier with the Yeti.

I realize that you're trying to stay within a budget, but the last thing you want to do is settle. Spending a little more money to get the bike you want, the way you want it will make you a much happier person in the long run.

Another thing to keep in mind is the fact that many bike companies (ie, Kona) have sales contracts that require a shop to spend a certain amount of money to carry their bikes. That may be why he's pushin the Stinky so hard.

Mr. Altagirl
06-02-2004, 09:21 PM
Sorry I'm chiming in so late. I LOVE my AS-X. The Manitou is WAY better than I thought it was going to be. I was going to go with a Super T but I have full on DH bike already (Yeti DH-9 with a Shiver) and I wanted to save a little weight. My AS-X is my everyday bike and will climb it up any trail there is (not quickly but that is due to my fat ass, not the bike). I would say that it peddles better than any other bike I have ever owned (I used to race XC and even liked climbing at one point in my life). I switched to Hope M4 brakes - AWESOME. I also took the DH tubes / tires off and went with normal tubes with Maxxis 2.35"; I bet I shaved 2-3 lbs easily.

As much as I love the Yeti, another option would be the new Giant AC-1. Our buddy has one and it came decked out for $2500 (Manitou DC Slider, Hayes w/8" rotors, Swinger 4-way shock, race face, full XTR).

Good luck (get the Yeti). :D

lph
06-02-2004, 09:39 PM
Thanks for the input, Mr. AG, i was waiting patiently for you to chime in. ;)

I am going to look at the AC 1.

right now i am leaning towards my initial thought which is the yeti with manitou slider. i am going to go to a different LBS, one i haven't been to before and start talking about the set up. I definitely won't settle, if i spend this amount of money i want to be happy.