Death of Proforms?

**Flash** · 03-09-2007, 05:07 PM

I just heard a rumor that K2 is going to discontinue employee and pro forms, and that Elan/Dalbello (and maybe other mfgs?) will soon be following suit. My buddy didn't know many details - just that it was announced at a recent NSSRA meeting.

Anyone know anything about this? Is this true?

**basom** · 03-09-2007, 05:08 PM

that doesnt sound like a good idea

**robokill1981** · 03-09-2007, 05:10 PM

Maybe they're just chaging/getting rid of the current website (k2 uses a website similar to Salomon don't they?) and going with something different? Getting rid of them altogether doesn't really sound seem to make sense.

**InspectorGadget** · 03-09-2007, 05:22 PM

Paging squaretail

**cdlv** · 03-09-2007, 06:55 PM

fuck, i better order a pair of k2's before that then , with what little stock they have on pro form web page right now, i might just pass.

**skibum193** · 03-09-2007, 06:58 PM

yaa, thats what i heard from someone high up at k2....they want to have people go through shops and retailers. which sounds bogus to me

**summit** · 03-09-2007, 07:03 PM

Any company that does that will immediatly see all the store employees stop recommending their product.

**Flexon Phil** · 03-09-2007, 07:11 PM

at that point, why work in a ski shop?

**Singel** · 03-09-2007, 07:18 PM

Originally Posted by Flexon Phil

at that point, why work in a ski shop?

This would make it awfully hard for B+M shops to stay in business in labour hungry markets. I suppose it wouldn't be too hard for a shop to offer their employees skis at wholesale cost, but I'm sure that will still cost them more than the current proform system, and the deal isn't as good for the employees anyways.

**leroy jenkins** · 03-09-2007, 07:34 PM

I could see companies wanting to switch to a system like salomon's; you have to get a card from a rep with a username/password to a special website, and a cap on how many things you could buy. That would limit hookups to what the employee would actually use, not the employee and his 30 closest freinds.

i guess that would be the end of proforms, but not really the end of hookups.

**mwthomsen** · 03-09-2007, 07:38 PM

I doubt that every ski company would transition away from proforms or employee discounts. In the golf industry Wilson went away from supporting the PGA Professionals and put all their stock into the PGA Tour and the European Tour and it all but killed Wilson in the green grass market. If a couple of companies decide that that is the way they wish to go there will be others that will be more than happy to too step up to the plate. TaylorMade went from small potatoes to huge and one of the reasons is the support they put into the PGA Professionals. Wilson has tried to recoup what they lost, and get back into the green grass market, but they have not been overly welcomed. IMHO

**cold_smoke** · 03-09-2007, 07:39 PM

Originally Posted by Summit

Any company that does that will immediatly see all the store employees stop recommending their product.

yup..."This is what I ski" is a good selling line and goes a long way with customers. Surely, the products that a salesperson truly stands behind are more likely be pushed.

**Lynx** · 03-09-2007, 07:41 PM

there was an article in ski in the fall about how top level athletes are demanding more money and how this may affect things like proforms at the low end. Also mentioned giving incentives for wins. And i think someone mentioned in that first bird thread that Salomon is now giving bonuses for placing well in comps so we're not likely to see too many salomon athletes in movies this year. Which, IF it is true, would be following suit to what the ski article alluded to.

**TJ.Brk** · 03-09-2007, 07:47 PM

Originally Posted by Summit

Any company that does that will immediatly see all the store employees stop recommending their product.

Summit they are considering it. They were discussing it at the NSIA. Fischer is thinking about it too. Ski sales are down so they are talking about reworking the proforms at a lessor discount for shop employees, patrol, instructors etc.

**BushwackerinPA** · 03-09-2007, 07:51 PM

I hope the rumor on K2 is untrue I love the Public Enemies as an all mountain ski and want to buy more pairs.

**Tunco** · 03-09-2007, 07:59 PM

I have access to pro-forms, but have not used them for skis in a couple of years. I have found better deals through other means, closeouts and such.

**summit** · 03-09-2007, 08:09 PM

If I was a shop, I would probably switch the brands I carried to make sure that I had proforms to attract employees...

Not only will employees stop recommending no proform companies, ski shops will start dropping no proform companies to protect their labor pool.

**Rontele** · 03-09-2007, 08:13 PM

The problem is not the proform, but the bro deal. Every bro-deal takes away one possible retail customer. Not saying that there is anything wrong with that, but isn't there a way of restricting access versus cutting it off completely?

**squaretail** · 03-09-2007, 09:51 PM

I haven't really heard anything about any other manufacturers changing their pro/shop form policies, so I can't confirm or deny anything about K2, Elan, Fischer, etc.

However, it is true that the topic of back door sales - pro form, shop form and shop employee contests - is clearly on the agenda of the NSSRA and the two buying groups, SMC and SSL. The last two NSSRA newsletters have focused on what they see as a major plague to the industry.

Basically, the shops (many of them) feel that too much product gets sold without the proper checks and balances. They know that too much of this stuff goes to somebody's buddy, girlfriend, or worse - ebay. Most shops with whom I've discussed this are not in favor of eliminating pro/shop forms, but they are in favor of tightening the rules to gain access to them. Common opinions among many shops are 1) full time employees should be limited to one pair per manufacturer and 2 pairs total and 2) part time employees and part time instructors/patrollers don't qualify at all.

Speaking for Völkl/Tecnica, I don't think you'll see much change in the way we handle forms, but we're one of the stricter manufacturers anyway. We don't have an employee web store and all forms require shops manager's signature. And that's if we even have what you want in stock anyway, which we probably don't...

**jfost** · 03-09-2007, 10:34 PM

Originally Posted by Rontele

The problem is not the proform, but the bro deal. Every bro-deal takes away one possible retail customer. Not saying that there is anything wrong with that, but isn't there a way of restricting access versus cutting it off completely?

this is the problem when bean-counters start looking at things... If you take X number of people currently riding X ski, and the avg. price is brought down by "hookups" on several pairs of those skis - money MUST be being lost...

As a former shop employee, I can tell you that if i couldn't get a great deal on those X-screams, I woulld have been on a cheaper ski. I couldn't afford full bill, or even wholesale on those (at the time) high-end sticks, so in reality, that would have been one less person on the X-screams, and one more on the verse 7 or more likely, my old Volkl's. I submit that the hookups are really just getting people who otherwise wouldn't even be customers out on the skis... IMHO, internet sales are a much bigger issue than phony lost revenue on a few pairs of Hellbents.

edit: for example, I just got some (05/06) 183 Gotama's for $304, how much were they on form??? Since I don't work at the shop any more, I just wait a year and buy a closeout, as mentioned by tief schnee above.

**Shen** · 03-09-2007, 10:34 PM

this is an interesting topic.....
are sales really down?? maybe
....is it really because of shop and proforms??? I have my suspicions.

I would first look @ the price of equipment.....then weather patterns....especially in the NE and Europe.
Manufacturers need to take some responsibility here.
Let's take the ski I use for example. It cost $120 more this year than it did last year-on proform....just because they changed the color. So, just think of how much it went up on the retail end....just for a different color. People understand what is happening and paying $1200 for the new color just might not be worth it.
That combined with the disasterous weather patterns the last few years....I think most people will try to get a little more 'life' out of what they already own.

Shops and Pros need to take responsibility also. Proforms are abused. Some companies have more restrictions than others..but overall the restrictions are a little too loose. If we consider PSIA..one could be employed PT for a year and take a Level I test..and be eligble for Proforms..for as long as they keep their membership up to date. Through most companies, this said Pro, will get the same deal as a full time Level III. This is not fair either way you look @ it. IMO, with regard to PSIA, one should be employed in the industry to receive proform consideration.....and the deal should reflect level achieved(the only company that gives 'Level' consideration is Patagonia-as far as I know).
Either way, things should be tightened up....but, not offering pro or shop forms would not generate much more revenue. It would just make products unaffordable for those in the ground-roots of the business. Which would reflect in worse customer service throughout the industry... without a shop or pro deal...the job looks that much worse.

**TJ.Brk** · 03-09-2007, 10:47 PM

to be quite honest the true reason ski sales are down is because of the cost of the sport. Gear, lift tickets, etc.

Sad fact is we are in basically the most expensive recreational sport available to the masses. If you look at the cost of skiing gear/lifts/lodging compared to the actual cost of inflation prices compared to other recreation sports you would be shocked.

**eastvailhucker** · 03-09-2007, 10:52 PM

its true, no more pro forms, switch brands...whokares!

the way k2 and other brands is ...put the responsibilty on the retailer. More control..yeah heres your salomon/burton card..buy what ya want put that shit on ebay make $$$$$$$

THINK abouuuut it.

Pistons Roooole, Nuggets SUX!

**Bunion 2020** · 03-10-2007, 06:14 AM

Originally Posted by TJ.Brk

to be quite honest the true reason ski sales are down is because of the cost of the sport. Gear, lift tickets, etc.

Sad fact is we are in basically the most expensive recreational sport available to the masses. If you look at the cost of skiing gear/lifts/lodging compared to the actual cost of inflation prices compared to other recreation sports you would be shocked.

TJ, you price a round of golf lately? An hour of Scuba time?

Recreation is expensive unless you are a do it yourselfer.

**matanuskaski** · 03-10-2007, 10:12 AM

It is unfortunately sad but true on both k2 and elan/dalbello... according to the PSIA Central newsletter k2 is planning on getting rid of both proforms and shop forms.. and Elan is restructuring there proforms in some unspecified way... The NSSRA is the one driving this unfortunate move... I think it's silly if u ask me but I can to some extent see where they're coming from