Base planer?

[davep]

Anybody used one of these FK base planers?

http://www.rei.com/online/store/Prod...cat=REI_SEARCH

How does using this thing compare with getting a proper stone grind? (obviously not as good, but how much less good?) I'm too cheap to get all my old skis shop ground...

[upallnight]

Dave--
It's not a particularly good item. I recommend the Ski Visions Base Flattener & Structure tool as a really solid tool for (a) prepping a new ski, (b) ensuring any ski you have has a flat base, and (c) imparting or freshening up a structure.

Downside? $70...but if you're not doing (b) above, you really have no reliable way to ever set your base and side edge angles. Then again, what does it take...1-2 stone grinds before you've paid for it?

I'm all for the big REI sale, but certain tools are good deals and others are not.

If you like, I can also recommend a really good tuning setup (list the individual items), and then you can decide where you want to pare back.

[davep]

Sure, some tool advice would be great.

The only other tool I use now is an FK multituner (yes, from another rei sale), which does 0.5 degree incremements for side & base angles. I bought course and fine files, and a course diamond stone, to fit inside. It seems to work well enough for side edges, never done a base edge (would need a stone grind first!!). I like it because its idiot proof, but ive never tried a full-length file and guide.

I don't use a structure brush or anything like that when I wax, just buff with scotch brite after waxing. any comments/recommendations?

[upallnight]

I'm not familiar with the FK multituner, but how can you be sure that the side edge angle is correct if you don't know you have a flat base? Most side edge tools run off of the base.

Here are the tools I use for the pimp hand-tune. I've tried to note which are optional vs. required items.

I use the following:

1. Ski Visions Base Flattener -- in my opinion, this is a vital device as pretty much everything is a derivative of a flat base;
   
2. Sun Valley Ski Tools Base Edge tool -- I like the 1 degree version. This tool is kind of pricey, but removing base edge is a big deal, so I like to be precise. The tool has a really good feel to it, too.
   
3. SVST Pro Edge Beveler - 91 degrees. This is another really precise tool that feels good in the hand. I find the fixed angle tools to be much more precise than the variable tools.
   
4. Panzer file - used primarily for the first tune -- you need this to be really aggressive and set the edge angle. You DO NOT use this regularly.
   
5. SVST Laser Cut file - any file will do, but the Laser Cut files last long and cut well.
   
6. Brass file cleaning brush - any will do...this will extend the life of your file.
   
7. Moonflex diamond files -- I like the 4" version as they work well with the SVST side & base edge tools. I have the 100, 200 and 400 versions, but I think just having the 100 & 200 would be OK. You need the 100 for handling daily maintenance & removing burrs...then the finer ones would be used for more polishing. They 200 & 400 are nice-to-have, rather than required.
   
8. Clamps to hold hold the files & diamond stones to the side-edge tool.
   
9. SVST triangle stones (200 & 400 grit): These are awesome because they work well with the SVST base tool. ALso, they're not aggressive. You REALLY do not want to be aggressive in shaving off the base edge. After setting it initially, you want to just touch it up. I rarely even use a file on it...I just hit it with a coarse diamond stone to remove burrs, then polish with the triangle stone. You probably only need one of these.
   
10. A brass/horsehair brush is good because you can use it to refresh the base structure & get old wax out (prior to waxing)...then you can use it immediately after scraping.
    
11. You want another, finer brush for polishing after hitting it with the brass/horsehair brush. I personally have gotten into using rotobrushes over time, but that requires a ton more $$...but it's great because they do an amazing job, especially when you are dealing with your skis on a regular basis. (I wax at least every 2-3 days out)
    
12. Sharp plastic scraper. I also use a $2 piece of medium-grit drywall sandpaper to keep this sharp -- along with a small wooden block to ensure I'm sharpening it at 90 degrees.
    
13. An iron that allows you to set the temp so you can melt your wax but not burn your base.
    
14. Your favorite wax(es).
    
15. Some clamps to secure the ski for precise work (can be homebrew)

I won't get into base repair here.

Using the above tools, I can put a sick hand-tune on a pair of skis.

I'd say #1, 4, 5, 6, 7 (at least one diamond stone), & 10-15 are essential. You could get by with a multi-tool sharpener, but it's not ideal...and you *could* substitute some cheaper tools for each of those items, but what I've listed above is very precise and lasts a long time.

You could then add more stones and other optional items over time.

All these tools (esp the files) are super-precise and can take off alot with even light pressure...so being light is better than heavy-handed. I definitely don't recommend being drunk when you're first tuning. Also, it's super easy to ruin tools by not taking the time to handle the burrs & work-hardened edges first with coarse tools (=coarse diamond) first.

OK...that's a ton of info (too much?). I'll leave it at that. Feel free to post more questions or ask for clarification if what I wrote was confusing.

Hope it helps.


Edit: Forgot to mention a Gummi stone for detuning tips & tails (good to carry with you on the hill the first day of riding a new ski, so you can figure out exactly how far back you want to detune)....but really you can use scotch brite or even any rock for this, in a pinch.

[upallnight]

PS Scotch brite is good after imparting/refreshing a base structure. You could use a fine scotch brite pad, too, to serve as a final polish for your wax.

As a general rule, I tend to wax every 2-3 times I'm out, and I do an edge touch-up every 2-3 times I tune. If you follow that routine, it's rare to ever need the full-on base & edge work. Daily maintenance is fairly easy.

[Arty50]

I have nothing to contribute other than to say that spending a lot of time tuning your skis for Kirkwood is like buying a Ferrari and using it as a rally car.

[cj001f]

?
or



Buy a grinder for $100 on eBay over the summer if you care. Otherwise a block of wood and sandpaper will do just fine - plexi scrapers like your link won't do dick.

[davep]

I have nothing to contribute other than to say that spending a lot of time tuning your skis for Kirkwood is like buying a Ferrari and using it as a rally car.

Probably true.

BUT (counter example): I had only 1 day on my powder plusses near the end of the season. They killed it in the powder, but hooked and wobbled like mad on anything firm. I'm guessing it was the shit condition of the edges and bases. And the way I buy & sell old skis, I don't really want to spend 50-60 tuning every pair of $150 skis

plexi scrapers like your link won't do dick.

The plexi scrapers in the link are just for wax, the base planing blade is the carbide steel thing. But sounds like its not worthwhile anyways.

[mojorisin]

guessing you're not a fan of the q'n'p method, eh?

[upallnight]

guessing you're not a fan of the q'n'p method, eh?

Doug's method is a riot... but the truth is that he was so amazing that anything would work for him -- I need a bit more help than that!

Actually, I've talked tuning with him and agree with some of his points...basically, he liked a 3 degree side edge under-foot, with a much less aggressive edge at the tip & tail. If you're as experienced as Doug, you can get close to that by hand...but for the rest of us, we need the tools to get the same tune every time.

Some of the reasons I go through a full tune with my gear, even though I'm (hopefully) riding pow most of the year:
* I go through the same process with every ski, so I know I am putting the same edge angles and structure on all of them. This makes skis more predictable for me, and it also better enables me to compare one ski to another. Shop tunes can be all over the map. (not all shops, of course.)
* It's rare to find a shop these days that does a hand tune, and hand tunes by someone who knows what they are doing always beat machine tunes -- and the diff is even more pronounced when the machine is not operated by someone who really cares (unfortunately true at many shops). Machine tunes are done for time/cost savings, not quality.
* The initial tune takes a while, but it does alot to protect the longevity of the ski. I'd say I get more life out of my skis if they're well-cared for.
* Gear karma.
* Resale value on a ski is better if it's been treated well.
* Maintenance/touch-up doesn't take very long -- 5-10 min/ski. I realize this is longer than many people want to spend...they want to have a beer and just leave their skis in the truck. Me, too, but 5-10 min/ 2-3 days riding is not too much for the above benefits.


Again, even though I'm off-pisted 95% of the time, having sharp, smooth edges and fresh wax does help the performance of the ski...smoother turns, more consistent performance, and better edge grip on the firm stuff.

A ski that only sees 2+ feet of pow probably doesn't need the edge treatment, but what davep said about reselling skis and needing some performance on a groomer back to the lift can both be improved with some care.

[upallnight]

Buy a grinder for $100 on eBay over the summer if you care. Otherwise a block of wood and sandpaper will do just fine - plexi scrapers like your link won't do dick.

It just takes a while and is less easily repeatable than using the Ski Visions tool (in my experience)...but the block of wood + sandpaper WILL get the job done.

[bubba-k]

What grit sandpaper do you guys use for that method? Do you have any recommendations on places to buy tuning equipment online?

[upallnight]

What grit sandpaper do you guys use for that method? Do you have any recommendations on places to buy tuning equipment online?

Can't comment on the sandpaper method as I don't use it any longer, other than to say you want to impart a medium structure to cover the widest range of conditions.

The sandpaper/block method is definitely less repeatable than the Ski Visions method. The Ski Visions device ensures that the base is flat (there's a steel bar to cut base & edge), and then you can simply count the number of passes to ensure that you are behaving consistently across all skis. The device has some weight to it so it is easier to replicate the force. I find this to be less true with the sandpaper method -- and it will be much tougher to flatten a base w/ the sandpaper (+ it is impossible to flatten a concave/edge-high base w/ sandpaper).

Tognar.com has a really good selection of tuning equipment. Prices are nothing spectacular (it's generally what I see in-store, but you often can't find their selection of high-quality stuff in most places).

They've always given me good service and got stuff out pretty quickly...less than one week from order to delivery (USPS Priority)...and that's adding an extra day for shipping from one rural spot (Shasta) to another (NW Wyoming).

[bubba-k]

As far as the sandpaper method I was just curious for a backup if needed. I am going to purchase a nice tuning setup over the summer though, and tognar seems to have what I need, thanks.

[DougW]

.....
I use the following:

[LIST=1][*]Ski Visions Base Flattener -- in my opinion, this is a vital device as pretty much everything is a derivative of a flat base;

I con cur with the base flattening tool, expensive but well worth it.

[Plakespear]

And the way I buy & sell old skis, I don't really want to spend 50-60 tuning every pair of $150 skis

You just gotta find someone who will do it for a 12-pack.

[upallnight]

You just gotta find someone who will do it for a 12-pack.

pimp hand-tune takes me a while...not to mention materials. that said, if you're just flipping the skis, no point in putting the full hand-tune on.

for my personal skis, though, they get the good treatment...and i value an hour of my time + materials > a 12-er o' peeber

[davep]

Thanks for all the advice. I'm not really flipping the skis per se (like for a profit), I just like scouring around for cheap gear, trying it out, and selling the stuff I don't like - but most of the keepers need a basic tune.

Anybody know a good shop in the south sf bay area that works for beer? I've been happy with the work done at rei in san carlos, but i dont imagine beer would go over too smoothly there.

One more question - I've never been clear on using brass/nylon/horsehair brushes. Do you give the base some scrubbing before waxing to open up the structure, then again after waxing to smooth it out? When do you use brass vs nylon - is it hard vs soft wax?

[manderson]

One more question - I've never been clear on using brass/nylon/horsehair brushes. Do you give the base some scrubbing before waxing to open up the structure, then again after waxing to smooth it out? When do you use brass vs nylon - is it hard vs soft wax?

This should help http://www.swixschool.no/web/index2.html

[BLOODSWEATSTEEL]

I have nothing to contribute other than to say that spending a lot of time tuning your skis for Kirkwood is like buying a Ferrari and using it as a rally car.

POTD. FKNA.