Buffalo Pass COPS Confiscate 12 sleds in STING

**rightskool** · 02-18-2006, 07:23 PM

crazy action today on buff pass at dry lake parking lot- Sherrifs office and forset service confiscated what looks to be a dozen sleds and skiis used in a pay for sno-mo skiing racket- the sting operation was conducted by the sherrif and caught a ft collins crew, and local steamboat crew. who's sleds and gear were impounded - watch out for the heat-

photos

http://www.challengesports.net/Gener...Pass/index.htm

**AKturnanburn** · 02-18-2006, 07:39 PM

Huh?

any more info?

**rightskool** · 02-18-2006, 08:08 PM

cops have been scoping out hybrid skiiers charging people for unauthorized backcountry trips..... that's what the sting was about

**Zeedashbo** · 02-18-2006, 08:09 PM

entrepreneurship is dead.

**Free Range Lobster** · 02-18-2006, 08:11 PM

Originally Posted by Zeedashbo

entrepreneurship is dead.

When did scamming people become "entrepreneurship"?

**PaSucks** · 02-18-2006, 08:22 PM

Are they busting these people for essentially operating a business on public land?

**Zeedashbo** · 02-18-2006, 08:29 PM

Originally Posted by likwid

When did scamming people become "entrepreneurship"?

now i don't know the exact happenings of this situation, but i can assume that they were giving rides in exchange for money. sounds like the entrepreneurial spirit to me.

and scamming is just as legitimate of a business as anything legal. i.e. drug dealing, selling fake rolexes and bootleg dvd's. crap, a homeless person begging for money is an entrepreneur in my book.

**comish** · 02-18-2006, 08:43 PM

Glad to see they are pursueing the really bad people in the world or the seriously damaging crimes.

**Free Range Lobster** · 02-18-2006, 08:45 PM

Originally Posted by comish

Glad to see they are pursueing the really bad people in the world or the seriously damaging crimes.

What? You want local cops and rangers to be in fallujia or something?

And honestly it was stupid to start doing that, esp. if someone got hurt.
Liability!

**Rontele** · 02-18-2006, 08:52 PM

Originally Posted by Zeedashbo

now i don't know the exact happenings of this situation, but i can assume that they were giving rides in exchange for money. sounds like the entrepreneurial spirit to me.

and scamming is just as legitimate of a business as anything legal. i.e. drug dealing, selling fake rolexes and bootleg dvd's. crap, a homeless person begging for money is an entrepreneur in my book.

I am all for entreprenuership but, but the market responds better to certainty in outcomes. That is why we have laws. Laws like requiring a permit to operate a for profit business on public-land. I am pretty sure Congress makes the forest service go through an extensive process before granting a for-profit permit on public land.

Why should my tax dollars go to subsidizing this potential scam?

**rideit** · 02-18-2006, 09:08 PM

Originally Posted by Rontele

I am all for entreprenuership but, but the market responds better to certainty in outcomes. That is why we have laws. Laws like requiring a permit to operate a for profit business on public-land. I am pretty Congress makes the forest service go through an extensive process before granting a for-profit permit on public land.

Why should my tax dollars go to subsidizing this potential scam?

Are you kidding? Did you read the recent headlines of the proposal to sell off the highest value public lands, for maximum market value, to private ownership? All to help out with a "Tax Cut" that is bleeding our nations resources dry. 30 day comment period for a 300 BILLION potential sale of public lands? is THAT an 'extensive process'?
Maybe individuals should just renegade it, it would only be following the example of this administration. Let's not even get started on drilling for oil, Natural gas, and coal in public parks, BLM, and monuments. Yeesh.

**Rontele** · 02-18-2006, 09:20 PM

This was not intended as a politically oriented post. All I was saying was that there is an allegation of a law being broken. Lets wait to hear about the facts before coming to any conclusions.

**Dam Skier** · 02-19-2006, 08:07 AM

I thought it might be a bit crazy up there today, but had no idea. We opted to tour. In case people haven't heard the forest service and snowcat operation posted a topo map of all of the cat roads, and are giving out free tickets. The goal for the cat operation was to gain an exclusive area, but feel short, as it should be. It has helped keep the sled neckers out of the skiing, but increased the hybrid use significantly. Next year they are charging everyone for the access from this trailhead.

The cops are a bit agro. They shut down the St. Patty's day bump off, and still sled around the mountain with guns on St. Patty's to break up any gatherings.

I was planning on giving my friend and injured buddy a case of beer to drop me and some friends of at the top of the Dome this week. I hope they don't get arrested. TR to follow.

**glademaster** · 02-19-2006, 08:25 AM

Originally Posted by Rontele

Why should my tax dollars go to subsidizing this potential scam?

I still don't see how this is a scam at all, people paid to get towed up the mountains, they got a service in exchange for money. OK, so maybe the gov't loses out a bit, but I don't consider ripping off the the gov't to be scamming, especially on such a minimal scale. That being said, keep Truth outa this thread before the good cop/bad cop debate gets rolling again.

**Core Shot** · 02-19-2006, 08:29 AM

Just becuase its "the law" doesn't mean I'm in favor of enforcing it.
that's the Libertarian in me.

But, lets look at what happens if this law is not enforced, or if it is repealed:
-if you allow paid guides to snowmoski in the forest, pretty soon you will see companies advertising in every ski town that they can take you away from the resort and into the mountains for fresh powder.
compared to heli or even cat skiing, it will be cheap.
next thing you know, the mountains are infested with a bunch of obnoxious tourons buzzing around on sleds and tearing up your pow.

Commercialism will destroy the very thing that sledskiers are seeking.

In this case TWELVE sleds were confiscated. that sucks, but honestly, 12 is a huge number, and this is an underground pay to ski business. If it were legal, expect to see many dozens more guided sleds.

think of the stink that is made about the presence of heliskiing in some areas. Helis are pretty small and quiet compared to an army of sleds.

The hard part will be those areas where guided sledding has been offered for years.
How do you tell folks in those areas that they can hire a guide to freeride but can't hire a guide to freeski??

**Rontele** · 02-19-2006, 08:32 AM

Originally Posted by glademaster

I still don't see how this is a scam at all, people paid to get towed up the mountains, they got a service in exchange for money. OK, so maybe the gov't loses out a bit, but I don't consider ripping off the the gov't to be scamming, especially on such a minimal scale. That being said, keep Truth outa this thread before the good cop/bad cop debate gets rolling again.

I agree calling it a scam may be a stretch. But the scam is not on the person who paid for the service, but rather on the Forest Service, the cat operation, and those users who are legitimately using the pass under the guidelines promulgated by the government. In the end, it is the legitimate users who bear the greatest costs as breaking the law (allegedly by this operation) will lead to a greater need for enforcement--and as an earlier post mentioned--now the probability of a fee system at the trailhead.

They must have been doing something or someone tipped off the Forest Service that they were a for-profit company operating on public land or the "calvary" would not have been called in.

**meatdrink9** · 02-19-2006, 09:06 AM

I can definitely see a reason for writing them a fine or a warning, but the idea of having someone confiscating snowmobiles and most of all skis just sucks. I can't help but feel the government is a little mafia like. "You better be giving us our cut if you want to stay in business." Albeit through fees and taxes and the like. It doesn't matter that you were taxed when you earned the money to buy the sled or skis. It doesn't matter that you were taxed when you bought the sled or skis. It doesn't matter that you pay annual taxes just for the right to own the sled or the fact that you pay taxes every time you need to fill it with fuel. "We need more fees and taxes...any time money changes hands we want our hands to be right there. It's how we beaurocrats justify our paychecks."

I'd be really interested to hear how much money it costs to get this stuff out of impound.

**Rontele** · 02-19-2006, 09:15 AM

Originally Posted by meatdrink9

I can definitely see a reason for writing them a fine or a warning, but the idea of having someone confiscating snowmobiles and most of all skis just sucks. I can't help but feel the government is a little mafia like. "You better be giving us our cut if you want to stay in business." Albeit through fees and taxes and the like. It doesn't matter that you were taxed when you earned the money to buy the sled or skis. It doesn't matter that you were taxed when you bought the sled or skis. It doesn't matter that you pay annual taxes just for the right to own the sled or the fact that you pay taxes every time you need to fill it with fuel. "We need more fees and taxes...any time money changes hands we want our hands to be right there. It's how we beaurocrats justify our paychecks."

I'd be really interested to hear how much money it costs to get this stuff out of impound.

I agree that having these items seized sucks. But if the forest service is going to prosecute these folks they need evidence. If it is only a fine, then they pay the fine and most likely get their gear back (merely speculating).

**meatdrink9** · 02-19-2006, 09:27 AM

Originally Posted by Rontele

I agree that having these items seized sucks. But if the forest service is going to prosecute these folks they need evidence. If it is only a fine, then they pay the fine and most likely get their gear back (merely speculating).

I'm sure they'll pay an impound fine and get their gear back anyway, but at a much much higher cost than a mere ticket might be. Obviously this is all speculation and I could be way off.

**Dr. Gaper** · 02-19-2006, 09:27 AM

Originally Posted by rightskool

hybrid skiiers

Is that what G-dub was talking about in his last speech?

**Rontele** · 02-19-2006, 09:32 AM

Originally Posted by meatdrink9

I'm sure they'll pay an impound fine and get their gear back anyway, but at a much much higher cost than a mere ticket might be. Obviously this is all speculation and I could be way off.

Again speculating, I imagine a ticket is issued when you are a motorized user in the non-motorized area on Buff Pass. I also imagine it is a whole other violation when you are alleged of operating a for-profit business without the requisite permit. I am curious to see how this pans out.

**gravitylover** · 02-19-2006, 09:42 AM

There was a full page article in the New York Times about sled skiing on Buff Pass the other day. Of course, this article ended with a trip up the peak where Mike got buried and died in that slide last year and there was no mention of any of the dangers that might be encountered. I can't say I'm surprised that it's as busy as it is knowing the quality of the terrain up there. When we started seriously using sleds up there almost 20 years ago it was just us and Powdercats, maybe one other group with a sled. Now it seems to have gotten a bit out of hand. I think that a daily access fee is unwarranted but a limit on the number of sleds might not be a bad idea. I'm curious though, was this pay to ski "scam" really what it seems or is it some folks giving the sled owner a few bucks for gas/wear and tear on the machine?

**Rontele** · 02-19-2006, 09:47 AM

Originally Posted by gravitylover

I'm curious though, was this pay to ski "scam" really what it seems or is it some folks giving the sled owner a few bucks for gas/wear and tear on the machine?

I think we are all curious about that. Which is why I have been withholding judgment and merely speculating. I think a fee sucks too, but it seems to have worked to some degree at Vail Pass.

VC · 02-19-2006, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by gravitylover

There was a full page article in the New York Times about sled skiing on Buff Pass the other day. Of course, this article ended with a trip up the peak where Mike got buried and died in that slide last year and there was no mention of any of the dangers that might be encountered.

Great article in the Times, encourage anyone who has some money to go buy a snowmobile and ski backcountry. I realize this is preaching to the choir here, because majority of the people on the board have a wealth of backcountry knowledge. However, I have seen in my very limited time of using sleds for skiing (the last two seasons), a huge increase of people that have absolutely no idea what they're doing on sleds or in the BC. A lot of them seem like, I have twenty thousand dollars to drop on new sleds so I can go where ever I want.

It just sucks to see an article written where people have died who have had BC knowledge, written with no mention of consequences.

A link to the article:
http://travel2.nytimes.com/2006/02/1...es/17sled.html

**Lone Star** · 02-19-2006, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by meatdrink9

I can definitely see a reason for writing them a fine or a warning, but the idea of having someone confiscating snowmobiles and most of all skis just sucks. I can't help but feel the government is a little mafia like. "You better be giving us our cut if you want to stay in business." Albeit through fees and taxes and the like. It doesn't matter that you were taxed when you earned the money to buy the sled or skis. It doesn't matter that you were taxed when you bought the sled or skis. It doesn't matter that you pay annual taxes just for the right to own the sled or the fact that you pay taxes every time you need to fill it with fuel. "We need more fees and taxes...any time money changes hands we want our hands to be right there. It's how we beaurocrats justify our paychecks."

I'd be really interested to hear how much money it costs to get this stuff out of impound.

Illegal outfitting is one of the more serious crimes that Forest Service officials have to deal with. The USFS is charged with protecting the resource that is our national forests. Allowing unfettered commercial activity on national forests would lead to the destruction of the resource the forest service is supposed to protect.

The issue has nothing to do with the government taxing and making money off of users of public lands. It's about protecting the public lands. Outfitters pay a fairly small amount of money to the forest service for use of the land, and the forest service spends substantially more money administering outfitter/guide permits than it takes in from these businesses. They also put a lot of pressure on the forest service to enforce laws pertaining to operating a commercial outfit on public land without a permit.

I can't wait til those biles go up for auction. Should be able to get a good price for em. Glad to see that the scab outfitters got busted-- the legitimate businesses are surely happy about this as well.