Uphill Travel Help

[philly552]

Hey mags!

A buddy and I just have been slowly transitioning into the backcountry for the last few years. We've been going at it slowly so we can focus on getting educated and experienced before we took on any major expeditions. This year we have been very comfortable with where we are at at we've been touring quite a bit.

Unfortunately we've hit a road block. We are both pretty fit dudes and we spend nearly every weekend all year in the mountains but when touring we can't seem to cover as much ground as we would like or as much as we anticipated we would. I would guess we have only been averaging around 2,000 vertical per day. I'm not sure if it's the terrain (steep and densely wooden down low and alpine on top) or the snow type but I feel like we should be getting more distance than we have been. Basically I'm just asking for some tips/advice to help us maximize the length of our tours.

Thanks!

P.S. He is on an AT setup and I split.

[skimaxpower]

What time do you start climbing?

[covert]

Technique: route selection and angle of attack. Focus on efficiency in your choice of line. Steeper is not faster.

[smallies]

Nice.

[philly552]

What time do you start climbing?

We are generally headed uphill by 9 am most days, sometimes earlier depending on what our goal for the day is.

[XXX-er]

you are moving a lot of weight on/with your feet which maybe you have not done before, some thing that crosses over ime is of all things bike touring ... moving 50lbs of gear and bike up a road,

a very good guide/extreme rando guy told me to do intervals, go hard as you can for 1hr and it made me a lot faster at the time

[brutah]

where are you skiing?

1. quick transitions help, I see a lot of wasted time taken on breaks and slow transitions from the up to the down or vice versa. also, nowadays i basically only eat/drink during the transitions

2. pre-dawn starts. starting at 9 am is pretty late imo, especially if you are slow. start earlier and you'll have more daylight hours to ski.

3. lose the splitboard. splitboards are heavy and until you have lots of practice the transition is longer for splitboarders. that being said, I have many friends that split and transition faster than most skiers. splitboards also suck when you have run-outs/ snow covered forest roads to exit, skiers can skate, have ski poles already in hand to push, splitboarders have to again transition.

4. route selection on the up like convert said is important too.

5. practice makes perfect. keep connecting those neurons and you'll get faster. it took me a few years to actually enjoy the up and not just suffer the whole time.

6. spandex. get a rando suit and shave your legs. the more aerodynamic you are the faster you'll be.

[goldengatestinx]

Shallower angle skin tracks help a lot.

[auvgeek]

No offense, but 2k vert days are small for two "pretty fit dudes" who spend every weekend outside. Compared to many on this board, I'm not in particularly good shape, but that seems like a small day to me. Seems like you must be negotiating some pretty challenging terrain. Yeah, getting up earlier and transitioning faster can help you go from 4-5k vert/day to 7-8 k vert per day, but 2k vert seems like either you aren't very fit or you're spending the majority of your time bushwhacking/route finding, trying to go straight up, etc.

I would find an easy skin, and skin for fitness. If you post your location, people can probably point you to good, easy skinning so you can see if a 4k vert day feels reasonable on an established, mellow skin track.

[hutash]

Spend a lot of time in other peoples skin tracks. Get used to what feels good, not too steep, not too flat. Most new skinners do it very wrong (as do a few old timers as well.) Learn to use the terrain. Find flatish ares to make turns to avoid kick turns. Im old and lazy and do a lot more then 2,000 feet in a day.

Learn to knock the snow off you skis or board as you ascend. it is just extra weight. keep skins on the snow, dont pick them up with each step. Find a rythm, pace and stride that fits you. Going too fast or taking too big a step will burn you out fast.

Hike a guide for a few days, ski some fun stuff you might not ski on your own, but more importantly watch, learn and ask lots of questions.

[Mr. Toad]

Damn, I was gonna say 2k is a pretty respectable tour. 7k is climbing Shasta which will lay me up for a couple of days... but I'm old.

[mtngirl79]

find someone who knows how to lay a skin track, get them to take you a long and pay attention. Its all about laying a good skin track.

You look at the terrain, and snake around taking advantage of the natural contours and avoiding kick turns whenever possible. Its like a game.

Also, know your pace. Going too hard will wear you out.

[mall walker]

Ya we need more info. There is some technique to skinning, but it's not rocket science, and after a few thousand vertical feet you should have the basic hang of it... where are you located?

For example in the Wasatch at a relaxed "conversation" pace my wife and I will ascend 2k' vertical in usually about an hour and forty-five minutes, provided we're not breaking trail and the skinner is in decent shape. I say this not to brag (plenty of people here a lot faster than me) but just to give some frame of reference - we're in our early 30s, fit and active but not professional athletes by any means, on lighter touring gear w/tech bindings but not featherweight race equipment. But we know this area fairly well and there are really no approaches to speak of, and by and large people set pretty decent skinners here... although we all find a way to bitch about them anyway

In the Adirondacks for example you might have a 2-3 mile approach before you can more than 50' of vert, which will obviously factor in...

[philly552]

No offense, but 2k vert days are small for two "pretty fit dudes" who spend every weekend outside. Compared to many on this board, I'm not in particularly good shape, but that seems like a small day to me. Seems like you must be negotiating some pretty challenging terrain. Yeah, getting up earlier and transitioning faster can help you go from 4-5k vert/day to 7-8 k vert per day, but 2k vert seems like either you aren't very fit or you're spending the majority of your time bushwhacking/route finding, trying to go straight up, etc.

I would find an easy skin, and skin for fitness. If you post your location, people can probably point you to good, easy skinning so you can see if a 4k vert day feels reasonable on an established, mellow skin track.

None taken! I feel like it's not that much either and that's why I was trying to figure out what I'm doing wrong. I would guess the biggest problem is the terrain. I live in rural Western MT and the majority of the area we ski is steep and thick timber until you get on top. I suspect we are just getting burned out while bushwacking and that keeping us from getting higher. Also, in the specific area around me there is like zero local ski culture so everyone who skis here is from another area (most come up from Missoula) and they more or less keep to themselves. Last weekend was the first time we've seen anybody else in the area where we ski this year so basically all the established skin tracks are our own.

Overall I think it's just going take time for me to get used to skinning. I have no problem dropping 8-10 miles a day with a 50lb pack during archery season but it appears as if this might be my kryptonite lol. Next time I go out I'm going to focus on technique and try to find more efficient routes and we'll see how that goes.

Thank you all for the help! Very much appreciated!

[adrenalated]

4k at 4,000' elevation and 4k at 12,000' elevation are very different things....

But yeah, if you're only getting 2k a day in Montana, working on routefinding and skinning efficiency, as well as minimizing breaks and transitions, will likely yield the largest gains.

[philly552]

Btw I just mapped out our last tour and we did just over 1500 ft vert and 2.8 miles of distance in just over 2 hours. And that's breaking our own trail, wet snow, moderately steep (~35-40 degrees), and half was through heavy timber. Is that a decent pace?

[brown9]

I found that getting a lighter more touring oriented boot improved my skinning efficiency a ton. Went to TLT6p's and the cuff movement is money. Look at trimming your pack weight down and wearing lighter, more breathable clothing, like softshell pants and light upper layers. I find the fewer clothes you wear the faster you move the stay warm. Keep it up.
I don't know anything about splitboards to help you there.

[snomaster]

If you are breaking trail and bushwhacking to just get to the terrain, don't worry about only getting 2k vert in. Everything is relative. Just keep at it. Make solid tracks that maintain a consistent pitch. Once you've established a great track, reuse it often and mark it if necessary to ease navigation woes.
BTW, keep the splitboard and ignore the haters. Shred on!

[philly552]

If you are breaking trail and bushwhacking to just get to the terrain, don't worry about only getting 2k vert in. Everything is relative. Just keep at it. Make solid tracks that maintain a consistent pitch. Once you've established a great track, reuse it often and mark it if necessary to ease navigation woes.
BTW, keep the splitboard and ignore the haters. Shred on!

Awesome yeah that's kinda the vibe I'm getting. For sure! I finally got the split this year after three years of snowshoes and packing my board. Absolutely love it! Plus it's a swallowtail! aka pow slayer!

[brutah]

google maps could help. scout your route beforehand and then try to find it and stick to it in the field.
look for thin coverage, forest service roads that access the terrain you are looking to get at to reduce bushwhacking, ridgelines can really help, look up summer routes to the peaks you are trying to ski.

find locals, i'm sure you're not the only people backcountry skiing where you are. they can suggest good areas to ski, places with easier access.
I consider 1500 vert and 2.8 miles in over 2 hours SLOW even with breaking trail and a good montana bushwhack, and I've spent a fair amount of time skiing in montana.

[toast2266]

Totally depends where you are or what you're skinning through. From what you said, it kinda sounds like you might be over towards Libby? It's low elevation there, thinner snowpack, and I'd assume there's a lot more bushwhacking. If that's the case, it can be slow going through that stuff. 2 hours for 1500 vert isn't fast, but it isn't ridiculous either.

The answer: buy a snowmobile. Use it to cut out the approach and gain some elevation into deeper snow and more open terrain so you don't waste a bunch of time monkey fucking around in thick brush.

[adrenalated]

google maps could help. scout your route beforehand and then try to find it and stick to it in the field.
look for thin coverage, forest service roads that access the terrain you are looking to get at to reduce bushwhacking, ridgelines can really help, look up summer routes to the peaks you are trying to ski.

A good article about route planning tools: https://14erskiers.com/blog/2017/01/...-skiingroutes/
I personally use Backcountry Navigator Pro rather than Gaia, but that's personal preference and all the same principles apply.

[philly552]

Totally depends where you are or what you're skinning through. From what you said, it kinda sounds like you might be over towards Libby? It's low elevation there, thinner snowpack, and I'd assume there's a lot more bushwhacking. If that's the case, it can be slow going through that stuff. 2 hours for 1500 vert isn't fast, but it isn't ridiculous either.

The answer: buy a snowmobile. Use it to cut out the approach and gain some elevation into deeper snow and more open terrain so you don't waste a bunch of time monkey fucking around in thick brush.

I'm actually in the southern end of Flathead Reservation and the main ranges we ski are the Missions and North Fork of the Jocko. Unfortunately this area is mostly tribal wilderness so no sleds. Would love to ride sleds up there but they are pretty strict on that plus access is extremely limited. There are only a handful of established trails in there and they only get cleared every 3 or 4 years (they don't clear them so they can minimize traffic, kinda dumb if you ask me) so that makes it tough. I would love to stay in this area but I might have to venture down into the Rattlesnake or up Lolo Pass so I can get into some more established areas.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

Damn, I was gonna say 2k is a pretty respectable tour. 7k is climbing Shasta which will lay me up for a couple of days... but I'm old.

2k is when I only have a two hour window to get a quick skin/ski in. It all depends on what you're after. It's okay to go slow and sometimes it's nice to put the hammer down.

[jlboyell]

Just chiming in to say the Missions are no joke. Steeep elevators and long approaches.