Risk Tolerance Descriptions

[CookieMonster]

Fellow maggots, can I ask for a small favour?

How do you describe your own risk tolerance in human terms?

Sorry for the cliched examples, but I'm looking along the lines of:

• I like to charge steep lines.
• I don't get to ski very often, so I like to "go big".
• My family is very important to me.
• I prefer to stay in control.

I realise this forum is populated with the high risk crowd, but that's fine.
This could also include a list of short-term goals, such as "I want to ski steep powder" or "I want to ski from the summit of a small peak". Shorter answers are fine, longer answers are fine. There are no right or wrong answers.

If you feel comfortable doing so, would you please include your home mountain range or ski area?

Feel free to send me a PM if you want your answers to remain anonymous. It is possible that portions of your answers will end up in a drop-down list box inside a free web/mobile software application.

[Hugh Conway]

I do it for the internet

[JoeStrummer]

. . .
I realise this forum is populated with the high risk crowd, but that's fine. . .

This is true. I have like 7 browser windows open at the same time right now. But I'm fucking crazy like that.

[Hugh Conway]

This is true. I have like 7 browser windows open at the same time right now. But I'm fucking crazy like that.

Fucking aggressive skiers.

[LeeLau]

this is way too open-ended

[moose pit]

Does doubling bagging it count as risk mitigation?

[XXX-er]

I just want to go for a beer after wards but no more than 2 ... my doctor has told me I must watch my health

[summit]

Cookie, I don't think your statements are not the best examples of simple verbalizations of risk tolerance as they only seem to state goals and desires.

Risk tolerance should be in terms of hard risk limits (exposure x consequence) like...

"Fair stability on a no-fall-line is too much risk."
"Fair stability on this small slope with a clean runout is acceptable."


Or as most people tend to fall for human factors and equivocate and adjust their acceptable risk in the face of their goals instead of looking properly at hard risk limits, you should ask for risk vs reward...

"Wow... this stability is poor and that's a terrain trap, but, conditions are so deep and that photographer from Powder Magazine wants me to throw a sick rodeo 7... so... DROPPING!"

"Hmm... stability is fair and the consequences are low, but it's breakable crust so I don't want to even bother with that. Let's go back to the beer... er... car."

[XXX-er]

how about light beer ... less risk than heavy beer ?

[Shadam]

The risks of hot tub poaching ???

[CookieMonster]

Summit, thanks for the notes.

As a lover of formulas and statistics, I certainly favour your descriptions, and I thought about using more technical language ... but goals and desires are how most people really think about these issues, so that's why I'm looking for simple statements. "My family is really important to me" says much more about someone's risk tolerance than "Risk becomes unacceptable if there is a significant chance of triggering a Size 2 avalanche." When most people choose a risk tolerance from a drop-down list, I think they probably want to see choices that make sense to them. Hence the cliches: "I like to charge." and "I like to stay in control."

It's partly a copywriting thing, and partly the fact that I'm not sure how many people know what terms such as "fair" stability really mean... or if they even care how "fair" stability relates to their goals and desires on a powder day.

When I'm out and about in the Cascades, most people don't even bother with stability ratings or test profiles. ( Which is not a criticism. ) On these trips, there are many quick examinations of the snow on the way up, discussion of heating/cooling/loading, discussion of the line, and then people ski.

So, it's a decidedly non-technical process for many people. One issue with "following the rules" and engaging in the "technical" side of touring/snow saferty is that most people don't think it's a lot of fun. ( Regardless of the safety issues that may arise. ) The same issues exist with the language used by avpros vs. the average backcountry skier.

I also wanted to avoid using classic risk equations because most people don't think that way. ( Well, I do, but then again, I'm a weirdo. ) I've noticed that many people can't really explain the difference between hazard and danger. Thus it seems pointless to frame risk acceptance in technical terms, and seems much more useful to frame risk acceptance with language to which people can relate.

Gosh I hope this isn't too much of a ramble.

Also, in my original post, when I said that TGR is populated with the "high risk crowd", I meant... it's not full of meadow skippers. I didn't mean TGR is full of incompetent backcountry skiers.

[Enoch]

Very interesting question/request.

Personally I am a VERY conservative rider when I'm in the back country. I ride mostly solo with my dog; and hence fourth ride very mellow, low angle, heavily skied terrain, when I'm SURE that the snow pack is stable. My biggest concern on these days is mainly my dogs saftey, I can make choice's and plan safe routes and zones but my dog is kind of ADD and is all over the place.

However if it really dumps and I can convince a few of my 9-5 workin buddies to "get sick" we usually head to more challenging terrain, sans pup.

Yet Even on those days I remain the nervous-nelly of the group and try and keep the mind-set that I am still skiing alone. In my opinion If you head into the back country, thinking that you are your only source of help if shit does hit the fan, you make more responsible decisions. Does anyone really want to take the risk of getting buried? Or worse, become the one who has to search and dig out a good friend?

With this philosophy one can ensure, for the most part, that they will be back for the next storm and the next season.

I still lust over steep lines and crave deep pow, and ski it any chance I get. I fill the position among my riding partners of the devils advocate and as an amplifier for the little voice in the back of their heads that can get silenced when looking down a sick line. I don't keep my party on bunny slopes, I just help them ensure to THEM SELVES that they are comfortable with the "risk vs. reward" equation.

Look I am only twenty-two, and my life revolves around skiing and bagging that next perfect turn. I wack it to ski porn like every one else, and I love choking on snow. I pursue it with a passion. I am however, patient. If conditions ain't right then I come back when they are.


I think this is a great thread. Post your own, or groups, thought process that takes place before tackling your next slope. Discussing this issue is, in my opinion, more valuable than talking about specific intricacies of the snow pack and its metamorphism (Dont get me wrong, this is still an essential tool/step in any travelers evaluation process)

Thoughts? Criticism? Lets hear it

FYI: I live in Colorado and mostly spend my time exploring the terrain off of Berthoud Pass. Anyone who knows Colorado's typically touchy continental snow pack knows why I act in such a reserved manner.

[baby123]

Very interesting question/request.

Personally I am a VERY conservative rider when I'm in the back country. I ride mostly solo with my dog; and hence fourth ride very mellow, low angle, heavily skied terrain, when I'm SURE that the snow pack is stable. My biggest concern on these days is mainly my dogs saftey, I can make choice's and plan safe routes and zones but my dog is kind of ADD and is all over the place.

However if it really dumps and I can convince a few of my 9-5 workin buddies to "get sick" we usually head to more challenging terrain, sans pup.

Yet Even on those days I remain the nervous-nelly of the group and try and keep the mind-set that I am still skiing alone. In my opinion If you head into the back country, thinking that you are your only source of help if shit does hit the fan, you make more responsible decisions. Does anyone really want to take the risk of getting buried? Or worse, become the one who has to search and dig out a good friend?

With this philosophy one can ensure, for the most part, that they will be back for the next storm and the next season.

I still lust over steep lines and crave deep pow, and ski it any chance I get. I fill the position among my riding partners of the devils advocate and as an amplifier for the little voice in the back of their heads that can get silenced when looking down a sick line. I don't keep my party on bunny slopes, I just help them ensure to THEM SELVES that they are comfortable with the "risk vs. reward" equation.

Look I am only twenty-two, and my life revolves around skiing and bagging that next perfect turn. I wack it to ski porn like every one else, and I love choking on snow. I pursue it with a passion. I am however, patient. If conditions ain't right then I come back when they are.


I think this is a great thread. Post your own, or groups, thought process that takes place before tackling your next slope. Discussing this issue is, in my opinion, more valuable than talking about specific intricacies of the snow pack and its metamorphism (Dont get me wrong, this is still an essential tool/step in any travelers evaluation process)

Thoughts? Criticism? Lets hear it

FYI: I live in Colorado and mostly spend my time exploring the terrain off of Berthoud Pass. Anyone who knows Colorado's typically touchy continental snow pack knows why I act in such a reserved manner.

So impressive sharing! What I need is in your post ! Thanks a lot !

[Ermine]

Yet Even on those days I remain the nervous-nelly of the group and try and keep the mind-set that I am still skiing alone. In my opinion If you head into the back country, thinking that you are your only source of help if shit does hit the fan, you make more responsible decisions. Does anyone really want to take the risk of getting buried? Or worse, become the one who has to search and dig out a good friend?
...
I still lust over steep lines and crave deep pow, and ski it any chance I get. I fill the position among my riding partners of the devils advocate and as an amplifier for the little voice in the back of their heads that can get silenced when looking down a sick line. I don't keep my party on bunny slopes, I just help them ensure to THEM SELVES that they are comfortable with the "risk vs. reward" equation.

Word. Powder fever is hard to overcome sometimes with a group of friends who are hard chargers. At 46, I know it will snow again, no need to die today. Some years the snowpack is safer, some years less safe, there are times to push it and times to "ski like you're solo", even with your fevered friends.

[MyMaserati]

It usually depends upon how many chicks are watching

[CookieMonster]

Guys, thanks for your answers. I do appreciate your time and effort.

Best,

CookieMonster

[powbear]

Just come across this thread.. not sure if you're still after risk vs reward from us Cookie, but here goes anyway.

I used to be the first in "crash test dummy" sort of thing when I was younger. Having been caught out by this and just getting out in one piece, my attitude changed.
I now see myself as the most cautious out of any group I ski with, except my missus, and although I'm still looking to find technical lines, I've not had as many days in the last year to feel comfortable with my ability to put myself or my ski-ing partners in those situations right now, which has meant I'm even more conservative. This will probably change slightly once I get back to full fitness and the 120 plus day seasons. I'm at the beginning of my learning and full on backcountry skiing time (rather than slackcountry), and that for me makes me even more cautious.
Not sure if this is what you're after, but there you go.

[Core Shot]

"I'm gonna rip the shit out of this"

that's what I usually say before I get caught in a small avalanche and ski out of it and high five the camera crew.

[DasBlunt]

I am patient in the BC of Colorado. I am also really patient at the double black "inbounds" terrain at my local area.

that said, when the conditions allow me to make fast laps, I am generally still very deliberate with line choices, but rip fast when I can.

Enoch's description really made sense to me how I have been choosing my days and places this past year.

hope that helps.

[CookieMonster]

Thanks for the additional information. Input is still helpful, and will be useful into the foreseeable future, especially info along the lines of:

"I'm gonna rip the shit out of this."
"I used to be the crash test dummy".
"My biggest concern on these days is mainly my dog's safety."
"I still lust over steep lines and crave deep pow, and ski it any chance I get."

These are very valuable descriptions, because they really communicate the highly multi-faceted nature of individual risk tolerance. It's also interesting, and not surprising, to see the "risky shift" ... people will do things in groups that they won't do alone.

What is really interesting here is that Enoch mentions playing devil's advocate. This is something every group really needs. According to The Avalanche Handbook, decisions should be neither too risky, nor too conservative, so Enoch's strategy is exactly on point.

I *really* appreciate the effort people have set forth.

[lynchdogger]

The risks of hot tub poaching ???

Or the rewards . . . like a smok'n hot cougar comes home to find you soaking and instead of calling the police joins you!

Hmmmmm . . .

[Ale_capone]

bigger, faster, steeper, farther.

funny,

I have always thought of myself as a follower, but am really the opposite re: the risk shift. I wrote this totally unrelated short story last night, but it seems fitting, maybe? it's not about snow, but it somewhat explains my risk taking nature.

"if all your friends where jumping off of bridges, would you too?!?"

The age old trick question everyones mom would hit them with. Usually answered with a respectful "no ma'am". But you really wanted to question the specifics. How high is the bridge? and jump into what? As long as it isn't a freeway overpass! In your mind, you where visuallizing your friends jumping, weightless, laughing, and landing into water below. Hell yeah you wanted to jump! but you knew it wasn't the right answer. besides, you don't know any kids who jump off of bridges, and aren't really sure which ones can be jumped off of.

Well that did it for me. All I could think of was jumping off of a bridge. I asked friends. "have you ever jumped from a bridge?" "do you want to?" While bridge jumping seemed awesome, for some reason, I didn't want to do it alone. Maybe in my mind, friends jumped together,,, solo was for suicide. I was obssessed. I asked everyone, and mostly just got replies that I was stupid or crazy. Then one of my friends narc'd me out to his mom, and it got back to mine. she was upset! Not only would her baby jump, but he was the one other mothers asked their kids" if____ jumped off of a bridge...." but they really meant that shit!


I was grounded for 2 weeks. Mid term of my sentance I went to my grandma's house for the weekend. A sewer like drainage to the detroit river called fox creek ran right behind my grandmas house. There where a group of teenage, what my grandma would call, 'colored kids' actually jumping from the bridge! A few weekends before, the kids had slapped me around with my own baseball mit, so I didn't dare go near. I didn't want to hang out with them anyways, I had bigger things on my mind.I just waited...soon as they left... grandma was sleeping, at age 8, with no one looking, no one to document, no one to blog, noo one to prove anything to but myself. I jumped off the a bridge, for no other reason then to see if it was as fun as it looked.

Never mind that the fowl tasting water got in my mouth, almost drowned me, and I ended up with strep throat. That shit was stupid and carzy... stupid crazy fun!! Unfortunatly, the commotion didn't go unnoticed. My sentance was lengthened, along with a healthy dose of capitol punishment from the warden himself.

for some irony....

if you go to cookiemosnter's blog, he has my picture next to the words 'avalanche safety'

[CookieMonster]

Defiance, eh?

You're a safe backcountry ski partner, IMO. ( But it is best to avoid orders. )

[Ale_capone]

defiant fatalist?

I am gonna die anyways, so I might as well do something I am not supposed to...

[Mofro261]

I like to charge steep lines.
My family is very important to me.

Risk tolerance is on a sliding scale through lifeand hormonally programmed such that you're generally willing to take a lot of risk coinciding with the onset of puberty. Think of all of the "stupid shit" you did between 14-21, most people (males anyway) have a story where "they could have been killed when"... I have many. Eventually this level of tolerance drops through the 20's and into the 30's and seemingly you do less and less "stupid shit" or the stupid shit has lower consequence or the frequency of the "stupid shit" diminishes. But if you were willing to take greater risks than your peers in youth then more than likely you'll continue to have a greater risk tolerance than your peers.

Factors that contribute to my skiing risk tolerance (which seems to be higher than most of the people I ski with) include familiarity with terrain, trust in equipment, honest assessment of conditions, and confidence level in ability.