Ski Areas Don't Make Money From Skiing...

[ill-advised strategy]

I hear this bandied about....

What about the old days, what has changed and how does the ski world get back to having ski areas that can run without being super-packed (lift lines etc) or charging a small fortune for anything and everything they sell?

Is it the lift systems? Insurance?
What's the biggest change between then and now?

What would be the best way to get back to skiing-based ski areas?

What are the best ski areas that serve mostly day-skiers from the local area as opposed to vacationers and how do they make that work?

[Marius]

first, many ski areas in the alps are profitable. just read the balance sheet of saas fee... 1mio chf (=1-1usd) proceeds.
second, speaking for europe, they do all BIG investments in piste-building and everything that involves unnatural snow! and chair-heatings...

so, most of the ski areas will dissappear sooner or later. in the alps, many areas will have big problems in ~5-10 years.

[rideit]

Reforming the insurance industry would be a good start.

[MTT]

Has been and is making money.

Private Ownership. Half on Private land Half on USFS land.

Very good pricing on Tickets and in The Lodge.

They spend money on an improvemnt of some sort each year.

They no longer maintain a Halfpipe, And scaled the park features way down 3 seasons ago

I like the place

http://www.skirose.com/

[Chowda]

I think it mostly comes down to business model. They don't make money off of skiing, because they never intended to. At the big resorts, mountain operations are just the bait to get vacationers to show up.

The small mountains make it because that is their bread and butter. It's also why you ride fixed grip triples there instead of your choice of three bottom to top high-speed six pack chairs.

I think it would take the failure of the vacationer/real estate model for you to see any kind of return to skier based resorts. And then what does that look like? I can't see them removing lifts with high operating costs and tearing down hotels to build parking lots.

[Schnappi]

first, many ski areas in the alps are profitable. just read the balance sheet of saas fee... 1mio chf (=1-1usd) proceeds.
second, speaking for europe, they do all BIG investments in piste-building and everything that involves unnatural snow! and chair-heatings...

so, most of the ski areas will dissappear sooner or later. in the alps, many areas will have big problems in ~5-10 years.

But a lot are not profitable, or cannot justify/finance reinvestment: Ernen, Winterhorn, Hungerberg, Ulrichen...

[Bluebird]

Biggest problems:

- Insurance Costs
- snow making costs (diesel, electric, etc)
- Extended season. Back in the day opening on natural snow only meant Christmas at best, possibly later. Now areas spend entirely too much money getting open earlier.

[john c]

Any opinions? additions? Ski areas that can't make money off skiing can't make money anymore period. Constant influx of ponzi capital from banks and real estate sales are done forever.

Top Ponzi schemes?
#1 Tamarrack (total joke terrain, redneck valley, no snow)
#2 Yellowstone Club (their accountant let's just say disapeared) condolences
#3 Driggs, Targhee (forclosure capital of the northern Rockies)
#4 Revelstoke (5000 vertical feet of heavy timber with 1000 feet of skiing, isolated, better skiing in all directions)
#5 Moonlight Basin (metal and timber bridges built to ski on?)
#6 intrawest (just $524,000,000.00 short this month!)
#7 Boyne (ponzi scheme at Crystal Mtn, a beer can up the wrong side of the mtn.?)

Top 5 not ponzi schems
#1 Bridger bowl ( best skiing on this list, payed all their operating cost Oct 31 off pass sales)
#2 Bogus Basin ($200 passes results in all Boise getting to play)
#3 Silverton (the new model?)
#4 Wolf creek (love the fight the guy put up there!)
#5 Disco Basin (never heard of that one I bet, Tree skiing with cowboys in jeans is so brokeback mtn.)
#7 Mt. Baker? ( don't know but they have a spot on their web site that explains tree well safety so they're in)


good start any others? If you want to make a diference vote with you wallet and give these places your $.

[prokeke]

Any opinions? additions? Ski areas that can't make money off skiing can't make money anymore period. Constant influx of ponzi capital from banks and real estate sales are done forever.

Top Ponzi schemes?
#1 Tamarrack (total joke terrain, redneck valley, no snow)
#2 Yellowstone Club (their accountant let's just say disapeared) condolences
#3 Driggs, Targhee (forclosure capital of the northern Rockies)
#4 Revelstoke (5000 vertical feet of heavy timber with 1000 feet of skiing, isolated, better skiing in all directions)
#5 Moonlight Basin (metal and timber bridges built to ski on?)
#6 intrawest (just $524,000,000.00 short this month!)
#7 Boyne (ponzi scheme at Crystal Mtn, a beer can up the wrong side of the mtn.?)

Top 5 not ponzi schems
#1 Bridger bowl ( best skiing on this list, payed all their operating cost Oct 31 off pass sales)
#2 Bogus Basin ($200 passes results in all Boise getting to play)
#3 Silverton (the new model?)
#4 Wolf creek (love the fight the guy put up there!)
#5 Disco Basin (never heard of that one I bet, Tree skiing with cowboys in jeans is so brokeback mtn.)
#7 Mt. Baker? ( don't know but they have a spot on their web site that explains tree well safety so they're in)


good start any others? If you want to make a diference vote with you wallet and give these places your $.

Yesterday I read the Revelstoke thread, which you trolled the fuck out of. It was pretty entertaining. I am hoping this thread will turn out the same, I'll check back in a week.

[hutash]

I think Mammoth was in the second list, at least until Intraworst and Starweed got a hold of it. Dave McCoy is probably happy he sold when he did, and sad to see his dream whored out they way it has become.

[Christopher3000]

Alta still makes money on day tickets/season passes.

[BigDaddy]

Debt is a large reason Alta can stay profitable. They have very little.

[Christopher3000]

^^^exactly.

[john c]

Jh could fall into the same category as Mammoth as it switched from McCollisters hands. I mean seriously, these places are thumbing their fucking noses at you saying your money isn't good enough. $90 day tickets is them saying fuck it to 90% of the market and saying those fuckers money is better than yours. Well their money doesn't pay the fucking bills anymore now does it? Then they come crawling back to cover the rent. Example the CO hills offering up passes for uber cheap to fill their coffers when times get tight. I'll take 3 days at Bridger over 1 day at Jackson any time. Vote with you wallet and twist the knife these megaconglomerates have in their side right now.

[panchosdad]

Any opinions? additions? Ski areas that can't make money off skiing can't make money anymore period. Constant influx of ponzi capital from banks and real estate sales are done forever.

Top Ponzi schemes?
#1 Tamarrack (total joke terrain, redneck valley, no snow)
#2 Yellowstone Club (their accountant let's just say disapeared) condolences
#3 Driggs, Targhee (forclosure capital of the northern Rockies)
#4 Revelstoke (5000 vertical feet of heavy timber with 1000 feet of skiing, isolated, better skiing in all directions)
#5 Moonlight Basin (metal and timber bridges built to ski on?)
#6 intrawest (just $524,000,000.00 short this month!)
#7 Boyne (ponzi scheme at Crystal Mtn, a beer can up the wrong side of the mtn.?)

Top 5 not ponzi schems
#1 Bridger bowl ( best skiing on this list, payed all their operating cost Oct 31 off pass sales)
#2 Bogus Basin ($200 passes results in all Boise getting to play)
#3 Silverton (the new model?)
#4 Wolf creek (love the fight the guy put up there!)
#5 Disco Basin (never heard of that one I bet, Tree skiing with cowboys in jeans is so brokeback mtn.)
#7 Mt. Baker? ( don't know but they have a spot on their web site that explains tree well safety so they're in)


good start any others? If you want to make a diference vote with you wallet and give these places your $.

Targhee actually has survived without significant real estate development for a long time, although they would love to change that. It'll be interesting to see if they survive all the speculative real estate investment they have made in Teton Valley though.

[NorthernSpotted...]

It seems to me that ski areas with decent terrain, reliable snow, and which don't go into debt to pay for fancy-pants lifts, lodges and hotels do just fine off skiing alone. Not too many of those left, though.

Anyone know if Jay Peak makes money?

[rideit]

Targhee actually has survived without significant real estate development for a long time, although they would love to change that. It'll be interesting to see if they survive all the speculative real estate investment they have made in Teton Valley though.

We should start a campaign for local tourism " World's BEST non-chairlift ski resort!"

[john c]

No not many of those left eh. As far as Targhee goes, that is why I said driggs, targhee. The Valley is completly fucked as 10,000 lots were approved and totally flooded a marginal market. Targhee would have been part of this shit storm had their land swap been approved. A marginal environmental land swap that would have trashed the base area at the Ghee. And in the proccess destroyed the very product that makes them unique. Fucking clowns went to ski college to learn how to do this!

[Spats]

The problem is simple.

During the real estate boom, which lasted at least from the early 1990s to about a year and a half ago (and since the early 1980s in some places), selling real estate made MUCH more money than lift operations.

Example: Kirkwood sells 10,000 season passes at $325 = $3.25 million. That's maybe five tiny slopeside condos during the boom.

So what happened is that ski resorts started being bought and sold for their value as real estate ventures, not for the small amount of money they could generate from operations. When you're building 100 new condos every year, it doesn't matter if your lift operations make money or not: in fact, condo buyers want to ski somewhere with lots of high-speed lifts and slopeside amenities, so you *must* spend enough to lose money on operations in order to attract the real estate buyers.

The problem here is that the mountain is now a loss leader for condo buyers, and the needs of actual day skiers are generally ignored in the rush to cash in on the real estate.

Northstar is a classic example: since they redid the base village, anyone who actually drives there to ski has to walk what feels like half a mile, in their ski boots, past every single hotel and shop in the base village, in order to get to the lifts. It's like they're taunting you for being of such low class that you couldn't afford to stay in one of the expensive hotels or condos at the base.

Kirkwood is another classic example: the centerpiece of the base lodge isn't a restaurant or the warming area: it's the REAL ESTATE OFFICE. Want to buy a lift ticket? Good luck finding the counter...it's hidden around the side and not signed. It's easy to see what their priorities are.

Mt. Rose, OTOH, is a good example of a ski area that actually makes its money off of skiers, and they treat day skiers well. The parking areas are right next to the lifts, food prices in the lodges are reasonable, passes are cheap, lift tickets aren't insane, and they run a cheap all-day basket check for families with kids and layers and bag lunches.


The only way to fix this is for the investors that bought ski areas for hugely inflated values -- as if they were real estate ventures -- to lose their money, go tits up, and for the ski area to be resold at a (much lower) value that reflects actual cash flow from operations.

Period.

As long as investors purchase ski areas for inflated values that can only be recouped by selling real estate, ski areas will suck.

This is why the economic crash is, in the long term, good for skiing. It will shake out the real estate speculators, and return at least some of the mountains to people who understand the economics of running a ski area.

[Adamantium]

Alta still makes money on day tickets/season passes.

This is what I was going to post. It should be noted that Alta has had plenty of infrastructure reinvestment the last 5 years or so as well.

Also, Snow Summit & Bear Mountain outside of LA make money hand over fist by catering to the socal park scene and pumping water out of the lake to make snow.

[rideit]

No not many of those left eh. As far as Targhee goes, that is why I said driggs, targhee. The Valley is completly fucked as 10,000 lots were approved and totally flooded a marginal market. Targhee would have been part of this shit storm had their land swap been approved. A marginal environmental land swap that would have trashed the base area at the Ghee. And in the proccess destroyed the very product that makes them unique. Fucking clowns went to ski college to learn how to do this!

I agree on the golden goose analogy, but you have a few facts askew. The land swap WAS approved, Targhee owns their land, and traded some land in Squirrel Meadows for it, (at an outrageously appraised $28,000 an acre, no less). The "10,000" lots were approved long, long ago, In and by Idaho, who saw similar growth in IF and Rexburg.

Many huge development mistakes have been made, for sure, and lots of it smelled 'bullshit' all along...Hell, you can only golf ~ 4 months out of the year hear `without a down parka!

[john c]

Unsure of the exact timeline on that gay land swap but it was fucked. The fact it was stalled for a number of years postponed the development long enough to save the base area. But the private folk went berserk in the valley and killed the goose for sure. And ski boots get trashed on concrete! Fucking duh, gimme a dirt parking lot anyday.

[enlosandes]

The whole Shames Mountain Co-Op concept was/is based on the people coming together with their own loot and running a values led business that ends up making money. Look at Ben and Jerry's, they are very profitable because they are values based and know the profits will follow. Imagine a mountain that made decisions based on what us skiers want.

[enlosandes]

And for those of you that haven't read it yet, Downhill Slide by Hal Clifford is a must read. He called it ten years ago and is a recipient of the golden telescope award in my book.

[Jer]

I'm nobusiness genius, but I'd say getting rid of grooming, snowmaking, high-speed lifts and base lodges would be a good start. I personally don't need or want any of the aforementioned gay-assed stuff. Good riddance.