Grizzly Peak 13,988 North Couloir 10/11/09 Close Call

[KillingCokes]

Our group kicked off a pretty substantial slide on Grizzly Pk (A) on Sunday the 11th. I have a preliminary report up on my site. I will be adding more pictures as I receive them from my partners. I will also flesh out the details as I process what happened in my mind.

http://makingturns.com/

Be careful out there. I'm sure I'll be hearing a bunch of Monday morning QBing and that's fine, I feel it's more important to get this out there so it helps in peoples decision making for the next month or so.

[Summit]

Glad you are OK amigo! I just sent out an email today telling people to be ready for avis and to put their gear in the packs.

[CG]

Wow dude, glad everything turned out OK

[skifishbum]

Thanks for the write up.
Glad you and your partners are allright

[^^^]

Many factors that went into play on this day. Some of the factors that came into play:

1. Shallow pack
2. Slick, rock hard, dusty summer snow as bed surface.
3. North facing slope with very little to no sun hit. Never got a chance to warm up and bond.
4. Our group never examined the interface between the summer snow and the new snow. We dug and examined the two new snow layers and found no energy within them.
5. Dust layers.

Slide ran full width and full length of the couloir. It stopped 2' from the shore of the lake below.

Some more photos from the day:

Kya seconds after remotely triggering the slide. You can see the tail end of the powder cloud down low.




Looking up:




Layers:

[KillingCokes]

Thanks for the pics Dave. Gonna add them to my report.

Also thanks for reminding me of the new dust layer, and great photo of it.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around this.

[leroy jenkins]

Holy fuck that is large and scary. Glad everyone is ok. This is making me rethink even the short mellow little shots I've been skiing. Time to start digging pits for sure.

[JoeStrummer]

Wow, that old snow / dust layer looks like complete dogshit. Glad everyone was okay!

[spthomson]

Wow, Fritz. Glad you guys are ok.

Thanks for sharing. I feel like this is main forum material. Unfortunately, likelihood of it turning into a douchey thread are high. I feel like it's so important for everyone (me included) to be reminded of so much in an avy context as a new season begins. Not saying you guys did this at all - but I think many believe it's "safe" right now, because there isn't THAT much snow. This clearly shows if there's enough (even barely) to ski, there's enough to slide - with fatal danger. It's hard to get an exact scale, but the consolidated "newer" snow doesn't look to be much more than 12"-18"?

[KillingCokes]

I'd say max peripheral crown height was 4 feet. Averaging about 2.5 feet.

I debated whether to put it on the main board, but I thought it most appropriate here

[CookieMonster]

Thanks for the great report and photos. Do you happen to have any photos of the runout zone debris?

From your blog post:

"I dug hand pits along the way. The stability where I dug those pits seemed reasonable, lower and middle of the route."

Data sampling can have a helpful or harmful effect on perception of instability. Sampling techniques, such as hand pits or test profiles, only help when the test reveals information about the presence of instability. All other results must be labeled inconclusive.

How did the data sampling affect your perception of instability?
Was the top of the couloir filled with windslab?
Did you expect the second skier to ski cut the slope while you were below them?

[KillingCokes]

Originally Posted by CookieMonster

How did the data sampling affect your perception of instability?
Was the top of the couloir filled with windslab?
Did you expect the second skier to ski cut the slope while you were below them?

1) Data was compiled during every step not just during pit digging. Every step gives a feel and more information about the slope.

2) I took a different route than Dave and Mark at the top of the couloir. There was a wind slab but I determined it to be insignificant. The expected result happened on cutting, ie a few inches of slabby sluff that was manageable. I can't speak for what they encountered.

3) I positioned myself in a safe zone. I also communicated with my partners when I was ready for them to move. I was hoping he would cut the slope and he did. Both Mark and Dave are very well seasoned travelers and they seem to do what I expect them to do without having to tell them. There was a rib separating our lines and there was a slight aspect shift as well, so a cut was appropriate as the conditions might be different due to these factors.

One thing that seems to keep playing in my mind is that the entire way up we weren't anticipating what was above us. This could have lead to a house of cards effect on the ascent. One wrong step could have taken out the tent pole and brought the whole thing down on us.

Perhaps our guard was down due to the early season.

[jon turner]

Man, I was thinking about heading up there Saturday. Good work making it home safe; glad it didn't turn out worse.

[Summit]

Originally Posted by KillingCokes

1) Data was compiled during every step not just during pit digging. Every step gives a feel and more information about the slope.

As the CookieMonster suggests, one looks inside the snow specifically for reasons not to ski, not reasons to ski. A pit should never make you feel better, only worse (or confirm how you already felt). This is ten times truer for hand pits and probing.

I positioned myself in a safe zone. I also communicated with my partners when I was ready for them to move. I was hoping he would cut the slope and he did.

From what you've posted, managing your safe positions was done extremely well and kept it from being worse than a close call.

It sounds like you all have already dissected the most critical factors:

Originally Posted by ^^^

Many factors that went into play on this day. Some of the factors that came into play:

1. Shallow pack
2. Slick, rock hard, dusty summer snow as bed surface.
3. North facing slope with very little to no sun hit. Never got a chance to warm up and bond.
4. Our group never examined the interface between the summer snow and the new snow. We dug and examined the two new snow layers and found no energy within them.
5. Dust layers.

[shredgnar]

Don't forget Pine Beetles, I'm sure they had something to do with this.

[adam]

Holy shit, scary! Glad no one is hurt

[Pow4Brains]

Glad you guys aren't dead and hopefully killed the monkey for the year.

[smitchell333]

Spooky. Thanks for posting despite the potential for a shit storm. I think we all learn more from these incidents than from non-incident rah-rah TRs, even though they are good fun.

A couple thoughts:
1) I've always been suspicious of the year round/new snow interfaces. Powder on ice never can be a great bond. Then add some tension from wind deposition.

2) Std Dogma is to always ascend your decent route - the consequences are so high when the avy potential is right above you. How many times is the danger most prevalent right near the tops of lines and how can you assess it until you're 100% exposed, maybe even worse than just skiing the line.

[jon turner]

Originally Posted by smitchell333

2) Std Dogma is to always ascend your decent route - the consequences are so high when the avy potential is right above you. How many times is the danger most prevalent right near the tops of lines and how can you assess it until you're 100% exposed, maybe even worse than just skiing the line.

This is good practice, but another perspective is to climb the safest route so as to expose yourself to danger the least amount of time possible. You still need to find appropriate slopes to do snow analysis with lower risk than your objective, however. I've heard both arguments from numerous people, and I would have to say I think there are times when either could be the appropriate choice.

The best thing I've heard reiterated in this thread is that snow analysis (pit, etc.) should never make you feel more confident in the snowpack - I feel like this is probably the most overlooked aspect of backcountry travel. If you are already feeling sketchy, the pit should only confirm that feeling, not ease your concerns. Also, if you dig multiple pits at the same aspect and pitch, you should take the information from the pit that gave you the least confidence in the snow.

[FrankZappa]

Whew!

Thanks all. Glad you're OK.

[JayPowHound]

Originally Posted by ^^^

[covert]

i don't like second guessing other people's decisions unless i was there but just a few quick comments...

1) hard slabs are notorious for being highly sensitive, being susceptible to remote triggers and failing above the trigger point. as such, they scare the piss out of me.

at this time of year new hard slabs will often fail at or near the ground which may lead to a very abrasive ride over exposed rock.

2) potential consequences of an avalanche in your chosen line. 'nuff said.

3) someone mentioned conventional wisdom dictating you climb what you ski. my unconventional wisdom dictates that on the approach i minimize my exposure in every possible way. in a continental pack i will rarely climb what i ski unless i have a good reason to (potential unseen hazards) or am extremely confident in the pack and have no better means of access.

Originally Posted by KillingCokes

Perhaps our guard was down due to the early season.

perhaps this time of year is when you should be most on guard. in colorado the likelihood of large events to ground is higher in the early season, the bed surfaces are uglier, judgement is rusty and the pack is typically some type of shit sandwich. most of my scariest incidents have been in the early season. glad everybody's ok.

[Mofro261]

Originally Posted by ^^^

Looking up:

Damn. Ripper. Glad you guys are okay.

[^^^]

Originally Posted by covert

i don't like second guessing other people's decisions unless i was there but just a few quick comments...

1) hard slabs are notorious for being highly sensitive, being susceptible to remote triggers and failing above the trigger point. as such, they scare the piss out of me.

at this time of year new hard slabs will often fail at or near the ground which may lead to a very abrasive ride over exposed rock.

2) potential consequences of an avalanche in your chosen line. 'nuff said.

3) someone mentioned conventional wisdom dictating you climb what you ski. my unconventional wisdom dictates that on the approach i minimize my exposure in every possible way. in a continental pack i will rarely climb what i ski unless i have a good reason to (potential unseen hazards) or am extremely confident in the pack and have no better means of access.




perhaps this time of year is when you should be most on guard. in colorado the likelihood of large events to ground is higher in the early season, the bed surfaces are uglier, judgement is rusty and the pack is typically some type of shit sandwich. most of my scariest incidents have been in the early season. glad everybody's ok.

All good points. Early season snowpack (October-December) makes me more uneasy than any other time of year. In this situation the excitement about getting on a fun line this early in the year masked those concerns and may of have distorted my judgment of the snowpack (failing to examine the bed surface interface with the new snow, etc.). CAIC preaches about it every year how deadly early season snowpack and shallow snowpacks can be. We witnessed it all up close and personal. Watching the debris and powder cloud slam up against the lower skier's left wall at 60 mph+ sent shivers down my spine and the only thing I could think of was "there would be no chance...no matter where you were located in that couloir...no chance".

As far as the climb what you ski mentality, I tend to go back and forth on this one. There's pros and cons to both sides and I don't know if there's a strong advantage from one to the other. I think a lot of folks get stuck in the mindset of "Well, I just climbed up the couloir/line and it didn't slide, so we should be good to go in skiing it..etc.". It's easy to get caught in this type of thinking, especially after a climb with no significant signals of danger.

One of the most horrifying after-effect from this experience was the images of that slide ripping down on us as we were climbing the couloir. One is so vulnerable when climbing a potentially dangerous line that it always makes me second guess climbing the line that you ski mentality. In this situation there were no safe zones in regards to the ascent. None. It ran full width, it even wrapped partially around the opposing wall on the skier's right side near the bottom of the chute. Of course the main gut was the most violent part of the slide, but even if you were far on the sides of the couloir it still wouldn't have been pretty. We may have stayed alive though. It's always so important to observe the natural shape and fall line of a couloir. Throughout your ascent, always think about how the slide is going to run and progress down the slope. Curvatures, changes in aspect, and such are key in deciding the safest way up a line. You can never take yourself out of harms way on the ascent, but you can certainly reduce your chances for serious injury.

[Joey Joe Joe Junior Shabadoo]

Glad everyone is ok. I was up in New York Creek Saturday hunting and took loop above treeline to check out the snow since the elk weren't cooperating. I was suprised how much snow there was in some places, especially wind loaded pockets and how much the wind was howling and moving snow around. I wasn't really on any slopes and what I was on gets lots of sun so it seemed to be bonding fairly well. It doesn't seem like the windloading was a factor in this slide but there is definitely enough snow up high around here to ruin your day pretty quick.