Big Jay closed from Jay Peak

**laseranimal** · 12-10-2007, 05:00 PM

http://www.telemarktalk.com/phpBB/vi...=556597#556597

interesting

anyone confirm?

**scarlet begonias** · 12-10-2007, 05:20 PM

Very interesting...I will have to follow this.

I still think whoever did the cutting is an idiot...

“I came over the ridge and couldn’t believe what I saw. We had been told of a possible easement violation, but this was much worse than I had imagined. Nearly 1,000 trees had been cut. The swath measured up to 60 feet wide, spanning 900 vertical feet. This goes against the purposes for which the Green Mountain Club conserved Big Jay and placed it into public ownership.”

--Rebecca Washburn, Green Mountain Club Stewardship Coordinator

**Doremite** · 12-10-2007, 05:25 PM

Its true. Jay is closing the backcountry "gate" and violations to the closure policy may result in their closing it again next year. I, for one, saw this one coming. Part of me just wants to believe its a pr angle to show Jay Peak is committed to the restoration of the damaged land. I think the reality of it is that it is going to be really difficult to police.

**skiingsamurai** · 12-10-2007, 05:32 PM

now im really pissed. I was looking forward to doing Big Jay this season.
If I find the assholes who did this, im going to use their chain saw to remove a few of their limbs

**jtran10** · 12-10-2007, 05:48 PM

I spoke with a Montgomery Center local a month or so ago about the Big Jay cutting. She said that it would be closed for a couple years to give the forest time to grow back a bit, I guess. Not really sure what the true case is, but either way it sucks.

**laseranimal** · 12-10-2007, 05:56 PM

Originally Posted by skiingsamurai

now im really pissed. I was looking forward to doing Big Jay this season.
If I find the assholes who did this, im going to use their chain saw to remove a few of their limbs

apparently its just the tram access

you can still skin

**samthaman** · 12-10-2007, 07:00 PM

Originally Posted by laseranimal

apparently its just the tram access

you can still skin

what if you want to skin the "LT" off the tram? or is there nolonger any OB access from high up.

**laseranimal** · 12-10-2007, 07:31 PM

I have no idea

it will be interesting to see how this shakes out

it would appear to be a bad year for skinning/access in NE for sure(at least from a resort/sidecountry perspective)

**Bluebird** · 12-10-2007, 07:34 PM

Originally Posted by laseranimal

it would appear to be a bad year for skinning/access in NE for sure(at least from a resort/sidecountry perspective)

What you talking about Willis?

**Vinman** · 12-10-2007, 08:36 PM

While I understand why they would close thier gate to Big Jay and sort of agree with it, kind of. it comes down to the fact that Big Jay is State land. And while they can close "their" access point I don't believe anyone can legally keep someone off Big Jay/State land.

Now, while skiing that line would probably be sweet and all, I think peeps should leave it alone and let the damage be repaired.

But without a doubt there will peeps headed out there one way or the other no matter if there is an open "gate" or not, and no matter if it is the right thing to do or not.... I'm no tree hugger or nothin but what those guys did is wrong.

Rooster · 12-10-2007, 09:01 PM

What those guys did is stupid. You'd be hardup to find a New England backcountry skier that would be on the side of these guys. Friends I've told who aren't in the know don't even believe it, the scope and magnitude of what these guys did.

That being said. Nature takes care of herself. Why do we feel the need to try and restore and repair what is essentially a minor piece of the greater land. The damage has been done. It would be nice to see earth stay where it is and for tree's to regrow, but somehow I doubt that land will ever be what it was prior to the incident that occurred this year.

I think its too bad that access to Big Jay has been stopped from the tram. Too bad because it shows a form of regulation in the bc. Exactly what some of us go into the bc to escape. That also being said, a friend went on and on about Big Jay and how its become such a well known spot and ten years ago it was him and his buddies and no one else. Nowadays you have to compete for tracks on a powder day. That and the diluted serenity of the backcountry as an effect of lift access into leaves me rather ambiguous on the closing of access of from cut ski trails.

I think this leaves two conclusions.

With the closed access Jay Peak Resort is now rather devoid of any serious terrain from lift access.

Its time for those who wanted to ski Big Jay this year to get their heinies off the lift chair and be stickin' some skins to their ski bottoms.

**Boomer28** · 12-10-2007, 09:10 PM

The people responsible for this are clearly assholes and should be charged if the ever found, but....

punish the many for the actions of a few....ummmm why? Doing this to act tough and green is a bad reason. Keeping skiers off Big Jay is not the solution, nor will it do one single bit of good in the long run. I for one say open it, and let people see 1st hand what the damage was and realize what an ass-poor move it was.

I'm sorry but the "give the forest time to recover" angle is bullshit. If that was the case the glades of all resorts would be fucked up, along with the fact that snow protects the vegitation to a degree and dead of fucking winter isn't prime growth time for things.

Again, fucked up on the part of the ass clowns who did this but the reaction is not appropriate nor justified.

**laseranimal** · 12-11-2007, 07:08 AM

Originally Posted by Bluebird

What you talking about Willis?

Well other then the fact that Magic rules(which we all knew)

we've got Killington telling hikers to take a hike somewhere else, Pico potentially doing the same, you mentioned Sugarbush giving turn earners a hard time, Jay Peak shutting down the Big Jay saddle. Next up, the University of VT closes access to the top of Mansfield(please god no)

**biggins** · 12-11-2007, 07:16 AM

Are there pics of the clear cut anywhere?

**laseranimal** · 12-11-2007, 07:17 AM

Originally Posted by biggins

Are there pics of the clear cut anywhere?

http://www.troutrivernetwork.org/gmc...mont_news.html

**Right Coaster** · 12-11-2007, 07:32 AM

Originally Posted by Boomer28

Doing this to act tough and green is a bad reason.

Jay is a habitual violator of environmental regulations. I don't think anybody is going to believe they are actually trying to be green.

So the slog to the top of Big Jay just got longer. Not the end of the world.

**icedtea** · 12-11-2007, 07:49 AM

before this happened, jay was letting people take the tram up then head down into big jay??? does it come out somewhere on the resort??

**Jay's Dip Powcher** · 12-11-2007, 07:53 AM

It is not just Jay Peak denying access with a rope but it is the State of VT and the Green Mountain Club saying no one is allowed on Big Jay....... A little bit different when you break that law.

**ATP** · 12-11-2007, 08:19 AM

Originally Posted by Boomer28

The people responsible for this are clearly assholes and should be charged if the ever found, but....

punish the many for the actions of a few....ummmm why? Doing this to act tough and green is a bad reason. Keeping skiers off Big Jay is not the solution, nor will it do one single bit of good in the long run. I for one say open it, and let people see 1st hand what the damage was and realize what an ass-poor move it was.

I'm sorry but the "give the forest time to recover" angle is bullshit....

1. Folks were found and are being charged.
2. It sounds like the land managers didn't want to punish the many:

crossposted from the TTip thread:

Initially a meeting between the VT Dept. of Forest, Park, and Recreation, Jay Peak Resort, and the GMC came up with the creative idea of signage that explained that when the snow depth got to the level of the signs you could ski it. Unfortunately, this seems to have been ignored.

Now, I don't know whether the height of the signs was very scientific. They may have wanted to prevent ski-edge felling of whatever shrubs remained behind or they may have there own unimaginative idea of what constitutes skiable. Regardless, they offered a creative solution, and somebody decided it wasn't worth shit. Now, we can climb for access and the effort expended to wallow uphill will be proportional to the reward.

I agree that the time for the forest to recovery is BS, since what's going to grow in that cut is probably hobblebush, but it might be true wrt to giving the groundcover time to recover by keeping a parade of sharpened ski edges away from them. There is still the possibility that they'll open the gate when the snow is as deep as those signs, if not this year then next. However, in the long run, that cut is going to get choked with striped maple and other skier-unfriendly shrubs, so the hard work of those two nitwits will have the opposite effect that they intended. How they could have thought otherwise is beyond me.

**samthaman** · 12-11-2007, 08:23 AM

Originally Posted by laseranimal

Next up, the University of VT closes access to the top of Mansfield(please god no)

maybe if they just limited it to UVM students and alum...

**JerseyDave** · 12-11-2007, 08:32 AM

Ha ha.
GL trying to enforce the closure.

**Brewski2** · 12-11-2007, 08:34 AM

Being born and raised in Montgomery Ctr, this issue hits close to home for me. Everyone I know is extremely pissed about what they did and agrees that the area should be left alone for awhile to help regrowth. Yes, Jay has closed the 'gate' that led out to Big Jay but it would be no different, actually easier, to poach than a reg. trail rope. They haven't closed the resort boundries. I'm pretty sure its mostly a PR gesture and won't be that striclty enforced. I really think its a shame that so many so called back country skiers will go out there because "we have a right". Anyone who cared about the backcountry and the area would just leave it be. Big Jay is a 'big' mountain and there are plenty of good lines out there without skiing on the clear cut.

"With the closed access Jay Peak Resort is now rather devoid of any serious terrain from lift access."-Rooster
-Thats kind of silly don't you think?

"I'm sorry but the "give the forest time to recover" angle is bullshit. If that was the case the glades of all resorts would be fucked up, along with the fact that snow protects the vegitation to a degree and dead of fucking winter isn't prime growth time for things"-Boomer28
-So a clear cut and a glade are the some thing?

Ever heard of erosion? Or high elevation vegatation that doesn't grow back as fast, if at all? Snow protects LIVING vegatation.

"UVM ecologist Rick Paradis. Paradis was concerned about erosion on the steep, now exposed slope with no trees or other vegetation to hold the soil. He opined that unless the scar is closed to skiers and hikers, natural revegetation will not occur. Trees will take a long time to grow back in this harsh mountain environment. Paradis lamented the destruction of Bicknell's thrush habitat; this rare bird breeds in the high-elevation spruce-fir forest of Big Jay."

"If you're not a good enough skier to ski natural glades without cutting, stick to the ski resorts' maintained trails"
-Richard Windish,
President
Green Mountain Club

**Brewski2** · 12-11-2007, 08:36 AM

Originally Posted by icedtea

before this happened, jay was letting people take the tram up then head down into big jay??? does it come out somewhere on the resort??

Yes and no, you end up on rt 242 headed to Montgomery.

**Binky** · 12-11-2007, 08:38 AM

Originally Posted by samthaman

what if you want to skin the "LT" off the tram? or is there nolonger any OB access from high up.

Technically speaking, the LT is only open to foot traffic. Per the GMC's website and other information related to hiking the LT, there is no skiing allowed.

Of course, this has always been a grey area.

On another note, while it sucks having Big Jay closed this year, I think that it is wise to let the forest begin to recover. The assholes that did this only made it worse for those of us who ski Big Jay or any other eastern "OB" areas responsibly. I do believe however, if they fully realized the ramifications of their actions before doing what they did, they probably wouldn't have done it. If not, they are really a bunch of friggin 'tards.

**2nd mate** · 12-11-2007, 08:54 AM

after reviewing the links here i still dont see where is says it will be illegal to ski big jay. Sure we all get Bill Stengers approach on this from a pr perspective, but the patrollers at jay have enough trouble keeping locals off "closed" trails let alone ones that run out 5 miles from the jet. when the tram isnt running due to high winds(snow) we just skin up from the freezer anyway. i will be one of the ones who refuses to ski the "jailhouse chute" ----vibes----. I just dont see how the enforcement side from the resort is going to work. are we talking razor wire and steel fence at the ridge opening?? if they threaten employees that may be different though. I still and always will love it off 242 but every year i find myself thinking "you used to be cool." are they going to close the west bowl and the catamount too???