TR: Engelberg 3-20 / 3-23

**Ripzalot** · 03-25-2007, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by LaZapatilla

Hi Ripzalot, did you guys hear the helicopters flying over town today? Did you hear about the avalanche in the Galtiberg? Apparently someone got caught there. It must have happened before noon but the helis have been flying over the area and landing in town to get more teams up there all afternoon. Do you know where the slide was?

This is the google translation of the news on
http://www.zisch.ch/navigation/top_m...tentOID=225130

"Skifahrerin misses after avalanche at the Titlis

ENGELBERG - on the Galtiberg in the Titlisgebiet with Engelberg on Sunday before noon a Skifahrerin was drug along briefly outside of the runway by an avalanche. The search for the 35-jährigen woman from the region remained so far unsuccessful.

A relatively small avalanche the commander of the canton police Obwalden, concerned, said Benno Russi, on request. The missed Skifahrerin was in a quadripartite group on the way and as only of the snow masses was buried"

yeah, we were kinda there. basically she fell from above me and gregor, her avy dusted us below. as we scrambled out of there, i found a glove. at the time were were hauling ass outta there, and i only thought someone dropped it along the way. later, rethinking and hearing what the helicopter fuss was about, it clicked that it must have been her glove. we reported it to the police and they sent new rescue crew into that precise area. at least that's what we have surmised as of now. circle is where the avy came down from (and assuming her as well) red dot is where i found the glove.

shitty ending to an uber-epic weekend.
prayers and vibes to her and her family.
+++++++++++++++++++++++

**geo039** · 03-25-2007, 02:25 PM

Ripz, I feel you....I am sitting here a little shaken...it sounds cliche....but hopefully she was doing what she loved in life.....all of us on this forum have a passion for this sport we call skiing/snowboarding and these are the risk we take to make skiing a part of our soul....+++++++VIBES+++++++

**LaZapatilla** · 03-25-2007, 03:11 PM

That sounds really scary. Sorry for that person, family and friends; positive vibes for them.
Glad you guys are ok

**Ripzalot** · 03-26-2007, 03:03 AM

crap. i feel sick all over again now.

she was found dead this morning buried under the snow....

Verschüttete Skifahrerin im Titlisgebiet tot aufgefunden

ENGELBERG - Die nach dem Lawinenniedergang vom Sonntag im Titlisgebiet vermisste Frau ist tot. Sie wurde am Montagmorgen unter den Schneemassen geortet und konnte geborgen werden.

Laut der Obwaldner Kantonspolizei wurde zunächst das schwer zugängliche Gebiet am Galtiberg gesichert. Danach konnten zivile Rettungskräfte eingeflogen werden, welche die Suche nach der vermissten 35-jährigen Skifahrerin wieder aufnahmen. Im Verlaufe des Morgens wurde die tote Frau unter den Schneemassen entdeckt und geborgen.

Die Skifahrerin aus der Region war am Sonntagmittag in einer Vierergruppe neben den Pisten unterwegs und als einzige von einer Lawine mitgerissen worden. Die Suche nach der Vermissten war am Sonntag bei Einbruch der Dunkelheit abgebrochen worden. Im Einsatz standen zwei Helikopter, 60 Retter und sechs Lawinenhundeteams.

http://www.zisch.ch/navigation/top_m...tentOID=225199

**greg** · 03-26-2007, 05:34 AM

a little additional information about that really confusing incident:

avi was mostlikely a natural release in the area of the upper ellipsoid, as those slopes were continuously getting windloaded from southerly wind since early that morning.

the woman was supposedly hit from the little selfrelease while traversing underneath the cliff to meet up with her group waiting a bit ahead. (supposedly since nobody saw her getting hit as she was last in her group).

subtle plague and I were watching the whole incident from about where the picture was taken. the avi was small but it carried a lot off dust which went over the second cliff below where she was traversing too, although to the largest degree its debris zone was located in between those two cliffs on the traverse.

of course both of us didn't notice anybody getting caught since it was too far away.

my impression later was, that after not getting any signal after scanning the greater area with helis rescue was focusing on probing the debris pile on the traverse.

after our report of where the glove was found and our description of how dusty that avalanche was they apparently started a new search beneath the lower cliff too. i could well imagine that she tried to get away from that cloud and in panic and dust lost orientation and went over the cliff whereas her tracks got hidden by the dust that followed so that she couldn't be located visually.

of course those are only assumptions as i don't know where she was found and nobody really wittnessed the incident.

btw. we only found out a lot later that the rescue action we wittnessed somewhere up there was related to that little sluffalanche that almost dusted ripz and geo and that the glove ripz found in the tracks might not have been just a random glove somebody lost skiing down, but might be the one of the back then missed person.

we only got that information since by chance i was talking to someone who had skied that traverse with a guide just seconds after the sluffalanche had hit and who met the group while they were still waiting for there last member a couple of meters below. only there we found out what the rescue was all about and realized that all those seperated pieces might be part of the same incident..

my honest condolences to the family and friends.

**TeleAl** · 03-26-2007, 08:03 AM

Please do not take my post the wrong way, but I am not good at expressing myself in 2-6 lines.

First, avalanches are not always those huge things one sees on TV.
I know it is hard to believe, but an av with a crown line of about 20-30cm,
what some might call sluff, can bury someone under 2m of snow.
That was what I saw a couple of weeks ago, and tried to express here.
It doesn't take much. And digging 2m deep will take 30 people at least 20 minutes.
20 minutes = too long.

Next, report all av activity, no matter how insignificant it might seem,
no matter if you were in bounds or out, no matter if you coughed and caused it,
or dropped a bomb into it. Let the pros decide what to do. And don't be embarassed.
Note where it was, the aspect, the altitude, the crown length, the run out length,
the category (small, person, car, house, etc), and any other info.

I am sorry your weekend was ruined by this.
I know the conditions were epic, and I almost regretted not joining you.
Simply put, I was too busy this weekend.

Ripz, Geo, LaZ, Greg, Subtle, and anyone else there, I am sorry.
It took me about 3 weeks to get back into it after my SAR.
And when I read 3 Marked, I think more than twice before jumping on it.
Gone are the days when 5 meant nothing to me and I skied wherever I could get, and did!
I was lucky. I know it now.
And it scares the shit out of me how easy it is to die in snow.

**greg** · 03-26-2007, 09:22 AM

actually i don't know what you are trying to bring accross.

first, the incident did not ruin my weekend.

second, i suppose you are projecting your personal experiences from specific situations onto other incidents that occured under completely different circumstances which you don't know.

as for example: engelberg is not leysin, and a huge crack in a slope above a groomer is not galti.

third. i don't understand why you are implying we would not take a 3 serious not to speak of level 5. the fact that guided groups chose to take the exact same route for their decent later in the day as we did earlier (when conditions were more save) could indicate that our decision was not completely off. (i feel really stupid pointing that out)

fourth. thank you for pointing out that a small slide can bury a person and should be taken serious. although i was merely trying to explain that the debris field was rather limited in size - and limited to the flat area where the victim was traversing and supposedly hit by the avy. i can only guess this to be the reason why they immediately jumped on our report of the glove after searching intensely for three hours not finding the victim in the main debris field and immediately conducted a search underneath the second cliff in an area they might not have taken into account earlier since it only seemed to be dusted.

so fifth. i was only trying to portray the situation as it occurred with all the really absurd details and pieces and how it all fits together in one image. i was not trying to derive some sort of lecture of how and where somebody might have committed a mistake since i simply don't want to do that.
but at last i nevertheless have to say, that if you report every avalanche or sluff avalanche of the size of the one which was directly or indirectly lethal in this case in the area of engelberg, you won't get of the phone the whole day and i suppose you might not be very helpful to the commissioners either.

so to summarize, i don't get what your post has to do with this event.

if you are trying to hold some sort of general lecture unrelated to this incident, in this case i understand you and could agree to a large degree with you.

**geo039** · 03-26-2007, 09:34 AM

I am not even going to get into this dicussion. I think there is a disconnect here and if this conversation was in real life and not via text/forum you guys would be on the "same page". Period.

...and overall my weekend was epic. Positive vibes as I noted before, but hopeully we all know the risks and accept them when we step off the map.

**Ripzalot** · 03-26-2007, 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by geo039

I am not even going to get into this dicussion. I think there is a disconnect here and if this conversation was in real life and not via text/forum you guys would be on the "same page". Period.

...and overall my weekend was epic. Positive vibes as I noted before, but hopeully we all know the risks and accept them when we step off the map.

word is born.

greg, both you are subtle are awesome guys. i appreciate your guiding and caution during descents. every step of the way you were keeping it in check and being very aware. skiing one at a time through sections and throughly observing the signs all around us. al dug out a body earlier this season, and he got pretty shook up about it. i don't think he was preaching at you but more just preaching to the general skier community.

it really was a confusing incident. it might have been a good idea if the SAR crew had made an announcement at the restaurant. we sat there for an hour drinking beers and watching the heli activity. sadly, finding a stray glove isn't enough to ring my (or anyone else's) alarm bell. but if someone would have told me that there was a woman missing i would have known immediately. but considering the specifics of the event, the glove would have made no material difference.

**klar** · 03-26-2007, 02:39 PM

thanks greg for the concise report.

i think al expressed himself very well in 2-6 lines. i agree with geo about this sometimes being a too ambiguous mode of communication.

**TeleAl** · 03-26-2007, 11:57 PM

Originally Posted by greg

actually i don't know what you are trying to bring accross.

if you are trying to hold some sort of general lecture unrelated to this incident, in this case i understand you and could agree to a large degree with you.

Then I guess we agree, because I am not pointing to your situation.
Yours does return to a point made twice now in lethal burials,
and that is what motivated me to write, so allow me to express it again:

In the case of Leysin, and now E-berg, I heard the same thing, "It was just sluff."
The 2 people with the victim in Leysin saw it go, and thought nothing of it.
You saw it go and thought nothing of it.

Thus I conclude, sluff can be lethal.
My point, for anyone reading, is simply that.

Greg, Don't take it personally. I'm not passing judgement.

**TeleAl** · 03-27-2007, 01:15 AM

Originally Posted by greg

third. i don't understand why you are implying we would not take a 3 serious not to speak of level 5.

Just re-reading your post and prefer to be clear.

I was not implying this.
I was speaking for myself and recalling a Level5 day when I was dumb as, but lucky.
Hope it is clear.
(where's the peace sign emodicon?)

**LaZapatilla** · 03-27-2007, 01:23 PM

Originally Posted by greg

of course those are only assumptions as i don't know where she was found and nobody really wittnessed the incident.

Greg, after skiing with a guide who was involved in the recovery, it sounds like your assumptions are pretty accurate. We skied Galtiberg today and skied the traverse where the accident happened. The only additional information is that it seems like the initial slide from your upper circle triggered a second slide on the traverse where the woman was. Here is a picture of the traverse location showing a small crown (keep in mind that it snowed 10-20cms since then). Also, on the far right of the photo is a pit that the police dug during the investigation this morning.
They found the body at the bottom of the 70 meter cliff shown in your picture. RIP

Now on a positive note we had a great day today again. We woke up this morning to rain in town and it began snowing heavily at Trubsee. After a couple of good runs down Klein Sulz and Grosse Sulz it became bluebird.
The Steinberg

**LaZapatilla** · 03-27-2007, 01:32 PM

After the police wrapped up their investigation, they opened the Galtiberg around 3pm

Mr Zapatilla

Roger

Mr Zapatilla

Heading into the forest

Overall, an unexpected great day. The snow at top was super light but got pretty manky down lower. We're expecting some warm temperatures over the next week but at least there is a good base now.

**Boss Hogg Barbarian** · 03-27-2007, 02:49 PM

that's a crazed lookin' dog!

**Ripzalot** · 03-28-2007, 12:57 AM

beautiful bluebird pics, LaZapatilla!

i saw this week that you must've got some fresh from the southern storm. how much longer are you in eberg?

and thanks for posting more on the incident. helps to bring closure in my mind. this thing has been f#cking with my head all week.