European Itinerary - advice or suggestions?

[utsnowgirl]

So, I'm fortunate enough to work for a pretty cool company that gives its' employees a four week sabbatical every five years (on top of regular PTO). My four weeks begin on April 26th, and we've planned to spend 17 days in Switzerland and Northern Italy.

I've done a few searches, and read some awesome trip reports from some of you that have traveled to Italy. This is our first time to Europe, and I'm looking for some suggestions on our proposed (and very flexible) itinerary.

We're flying into Geneva, and out of Rome. Because it's not high tourist season, we haven't really booked any accommodations or transportation (hopefully, that's not a problem).

We want to see some of the historical sites, but we also want to enjoy the natural beauty of the area. We generally like to stay off the beaten path and enjoy some of the local flavor.

Does this itinerary make sense?? What are 'must sees' in each area? Suggestions for good places to eat and sleep? Are we moving around too much to be able to relax?

Day 1 - Leave SLC
Day 2 - Arrive Geneva - travel to Zermatt by train
Day 3 - Stay in Zermatt
Day 4 - Stay in Zermatt
Day 5 - travel to Venice area (by train)
Day 6 - stay in Venice
Day 7 - stay in Venice
Day 8 - travel to Florence (maybe rent car?)
Day 9 - stay in Florence
Day 10 - stay in Florence
Day 11 - stay in Florence
Day 12 - travel to Cinque Terra (by train)
Day 13 - stay in Cinque Terra
Day 14 - stay in Cinque Terra
Day 15 - travel to Rome (by train)
Day 16 - stay in Rome
Day 17 - travel to SLC

Thanks in advance!

[AlpineJunkie]

3 days in Venice is too much and 1 day in Rome is too little. Venice is very small and has limited attractions (most only visit for a day). Rome is unbelievably huge (not by geography but just by things to see) and you could spend 2 weeks there and still not see everything. I would chop off a day or two from Venice and add it to Rome. Whatever else you do in Rome the one day you MUST have scheduled (I would do it as your first full day there) is wake up in the morning, go to the Vatican, check out St Peters Bascillica for a little bit and then immediately get in line for the Vatican muesum (although the muesem entrance is on the side of the Vatican the line usually wraps around all the way to the Vatican square where St Peters Bascillica is). The Vatican muesem is an all day affair. When you get out in the afternoon, grab some lunch and maybe hang out in a piazza and then maybe after recouping in your hotel for a little bit head on over to the Spanish Steps in the evening for some dinner. That right there is a day that must be done in Rome. But you definitely should give at least one of Venice's days to Rome.

[CDubz]

I agree with AlpineJunkie I spent two months traveling Europe and you really can't go wrong. With that said Venice wasn't for me, we got in one morning spent the day there and after dinner had had enough and jumped back on the train and headed out. Once youve seen one canal youve seen em all. St. Marks square was fun, some great gilato to be had and the trip up the bell tower can be fun. Lots of photo opps, some of our trips best shots came in Venice (we had some killer light) but really nothing worth staying for in my opinion. Add more time to Rome, we spent 8 days there and were never board. So much history and so many things to see. Also the cinque terra was one of my favorite places. We stayed in vernazza close to the bay, perfect location and probably the most scenic. I would stay away from staying in both Monterosso and riomaggiore. Nights were spent eating fresh food and drinking the amazing wine, days were spent hiking beaching and conversing with the locals oh and drinking the amazing wine (i couldn't pack enough bottles to bring home). Additionally the northern lake country like lake como and the surrounding region is amazing maybe take a day from florence and spend some time there. Oh so many things to see you really can't go wrong. Enjoy your trip!!!

[philippeR]

No, 2 days in Venice are not too much, IMO.
OTOH, Rome deserves more time.
I'm not fond of Florence, so I would say : Skip Zermatt, and cut one day in Florence. Try to save a day to see more of Tuscany (Sienna...).
To travel by car is a good idea, but parking will sucks in Rome (and in Venice, obviously...).
And you're golden.

Just my 0.2$.

[Ripzalot]

My .02 centimes....

Zermatt only if you plan to ski. And at that time, you may get powder. But one day is enough. You can gawk at the matterhorn for only so long. There really isn't anything else there worthy. Classic, but overrated.

Venice can be done in a day. Two days if the weather happens to be really nice.

Florence itself is a day trip unless you are staying at an agriturismo and just want to hang out relaxing by the pool.

Cinque Terre is really nice and worthy of two days. Lots of hiking to be done and relaxing by the sea.

Rome needs at LEAST two days.

However, I think your route is too travel-intensive (for me). You are burning a lot of days on the train (not so bad but it's travelling, not really relaxing). I would suggest renting a car, and seeing more inbetween stops. Also your route is a lot of back and forth across Italy due to the Venice stop. Cutting out Venice and seeing more of Tuscany or Rome would be preferable imho. Also, perhaps Chamonix might be an alternative to Zermatt. From Geneva, it's more direct to get to Cinque Terre. And the mountains are equally if not more stunning.

A more optimized route might be:
Chamonix -> Cinque Terre
Cinque Terre -> Florence (by car, driving thru northern Tuscany, stop in Pisa or Lucca)
Florence -> Rome (by car, , driving thru central Tuscany, Chianti drive, stop in Sienna)

EDIT: if you are interested in the agriturismos (farmhouse bed&breakfast) around tuscany, check out this site: http://www.venere.com/

[AlpineJunkie]

No, 2 days in Venice are not too much, IMO.

First of all she has 3 days scheduled there not 2. And second of all what exactly do you envision her doing there for 3 days??? I lived in Italy for 2 years I know what I'm talking about. Venice deserves 1 day, that's it. Ask anyone else who's been there, read the travel guides and brocheres. Most all will tell you Venice is worth 1 day and that's it. And do not cutt one day of Florence unless you are giving it to Rome.

The consesus is forming to hack a couple days off Venice and devote more time to Rome. I however though don't think the traveling is bad since it is through some of the best scenery in the world. And I assume the days in Zermatt and Cinque Terra are partly for hiking so I think those days would be fine as well if some hiking are your intentions. Anyways here is what I think your itenarary should be:

Day 1 - Leave SLC
Day 2 - Arrive Geneva - travel to Zermatt by train
Day 3 - Stay in Zermatt
Day 4 - Stay in Zermatt
Day 5 - travel to Venice area (by train)
Day 6 - stay in Venice
Day 7 - travel to Florence (by train)
Day 8 - stay in Florence
Day 9 - stay in Florence
Day 10 - travel to Cinque Terra (by train)
Day 11 - stay in Cinque Terra
Day 12 - stay in Cinque Terra
Day 13 - travel to Rome (by train)
Day 14 - stay in Rome
Day 15 - stay in Rome
Day 16 - stay in Rome
Day 17 - travel to SLC

[philippeR]

^^ I've been to Venice several times dude. I just happen to disagree with you.

Ripzalot makes a good point re. travel.

[utsnowgirl]

Thanks for the info so far - it's been very helpful.

I was concerned that we are moving around too much, and our vacation will turn into more work/stress than relaxation. We usually like to just pick one place, stay there for at least 4-5 days, and do day trips from there. There's just so much to see and do in Northern Italy - I want to make sure we maximize our time.

Do you think we'll be able to book accommodations/transportation without making reservations in advance? I've heard that May is the low tourist season, and with the dollar so weak, I don't think many Americans are traveling to Europe.

Thanks again!

[Ripzalot]

it will be super quiet around that time. i doubt you would need to book anything much in advance. you would probably do fine to just play things by ear. that could even be a good idea too since it could be rainy. just go where the rain isn't. bring a short list of hotels/b&b's for each of your planned stops.

[Tippster]

There is as much to do and see in Venice as there is in Florence - they are both fascinating in their own way. Buy some guide books, do some research (ie if there are certain Museums, etc. you want to hit look online and see if they're OPEN.) Italy as a whole is famous for using the time between Easter and the Summer Vacation madness to do repairs & maintenance on their busier sites. Too many tourists get screwed by going "Off Season" expecting to get in everywhere, see everything only to find out "It will open next week!"

In Venice don't just stay by the Grand Canal and the Piazza San Marco. Go check out the glass factories in Murano, wander the Giardini Pubblici, and the Ca'Rezzonico museum. Get a Gondoliere tot ake you to his favorite Restaurant, after your meal get another one to take you to his favorite cafe/wine shop.

As has been discussed, Rome is worthy of its own week, not merely a couple of days.

[truckeelocal]

Why Switzerland ? Why not stay in Italy and the Dolomites and Lakes. Plus you'd get a better feel for Italy for hanging in one place for a week, say - perhaps Rome. Milan (I lived there) isn't on your list and Verona is very close to Garda and from there the Dolomites. Sadly Venice is a tourist trap that is a necessary evil.

[encore]

We generally like to stay off the beaten path and enjoy some of the local flavor.

Yet you are traveling to the most touristy areas of Italy?

I've found that the touristy places hate tourists. I was just in Italy this past October and I would suggest hitting the small towns in Tuscany. If you like small towns, great food, great wine, and beautiful countryside, I would do that. They treat tourists so much better! Cities: Montepulciano, Rhadda in Chianti, Greve in Chianti, Montalcino, etc.

[AlpineJunkie]

Milan shouldn't be on her list. It has banks, that's it (yeah yeah they have the Last Supper and that one chapel I forget that is never ever open).

Isn't Italy as a whole "touristy"? Touristy is a matter of what you do and how you do it when you get there, not just a matter of where you go. So I don't think you can disqualify Rome or Florence as a good place to visit just because it's "touristy".

[Tippster]

Pretty sure there isn't a town in Tuscany that isn't touristy.

Oh, depending on the weather and tides (pretty rainy in N. Italy in Spring) Venice might be under water. Seriously.

[encore]

Pretty sure there isn't a town in Tuscany that isn't touristy.

This one.

http://www.secretplaces.com/sp/1/hot...l_Castello.asp

My GF and I stayed here. It was awesome! Very relaxing. Great place for a base camp, then exploration by car of Tuscany.

[encore]

So I don't think you can disqualify Rome or Florence as a good place to visit just because it's "touristy".

Tell me where I said she shouldn't visit those places.

[AlpineJunkie]

Don't visit Rome or Florence because they are too touristy.

^^^^^^There

[encore]

^^^^^^There

I laughed! For a second, I was thinking, "Did I really say that?"

[bagtagley]

I much preferred the small cities and towns over the large ones. I was fascinated by Rome, but after a couple days, I couldn't wait to leave. I'll agree that the Vatican is a must see, though. Venice was cool, but for some reason, didn't do much for me.

Our trip was based around food as much as anything, and we had the most amazing meals off the beaten path. Our nights in Sezze, Basciano, San Gimignano, etc. where definitely the most memorable.

PS, maybe it was the Ferrari Museum nearby, or the fact that we caught a Rally when we arrived, but I thought San Marino was pretty cool.

[Ripzalot]

Italy as a whole is famous for using the time between Easter and the Summer Vacation madness to do repairs & maintenance on their busier sites. Too many tourists get screwed by going "Off Season" expecting to get in everywhere, see everything only to find out "It will open next week!"

that's a good point. even more incentive to ditch the museum tours and hit the wine country and the seaside.


and yes venice could be underwater. i was there several years ago in april and we were walking around on raised wooden platforms to get around. there were no tourists around tho. i kinda dug the vibe. just perfect for wandering around doing nothing much more than drinking espresso and eating tapas.

you'll always find the people to be more open and friendly in the small towns. it's not an italian thing, it's normal all over. if you make a little effort with the language, be reserved and polite, it will make your trip a lot more pleasant. oh and they love it when you wear shorts and tevas to dinner.

[truckeelocal]

You'll be there during the Giro. This is either something to see or plan around.

[bagtagley]

One advantage to being in Venice off-season is that you can swat at the flying rats that dive bomb your face in the Piazza San Marco without being berated by bird loving tourists, and bird profiting Italians. Now I remember why I wasn't a fan of Venice.

[acostiga]

i spent some time in italy during college on a study abroad, and probably did more travelling and whatever than actual coursework... so i feel compelled to add my few hundred lire (oh shit, eurocents).

if you're going to see florence during that time of year, you'll be missing the super-crush of tourists but it'll still be swamped. i'm of the opinion that one cannot really visit this part of the world without seeing some of the famous sights in the city itself... and that time spent in the countryside should also be part of your experience. i was there many moons ago, and they'd already put a disney retail store just off of the piazza del duomo. the city center is gorgeous, and there are tons of things worth seeing. however- you might want to prioritize your list of art or sights that you'd like to see, and head to wherever you most want to be early in the day. there were sick-nasty lineups during the high tourist season, and because it gets hot out there, early morning museum missions might be best.

as for florence eating recommendations, one of my favorite restaurants was a small place on the other side of the river from the main section of town. this area is named the 'oltrarno' i think, and the restaurant isn't very far away from the ponte vecchio. it's sort of off the main street, up a small alley to your left as you're walking away from the bridge. trattoria bordino, or something like that, would be a great place to go for lunch. my high school exchange partner lived nearby, and this was his family's restaurant recommendation to me. since lunch can be cheaper, yet still a large meal, this might be a good place to pig out for relatively little money and then go for a stroll through the boboli gardens to unwind (or take a food nap).

my personal favorite restaurant was a short walk away from the duomo, in the direction of santa croce. off of the main street there's an irish-style pub and the restaurant 'i ghibellini' that spill out into a tiny, almost hidden piazza. the restaurant is sort of touristy-style, but i thought the food was good and lots of younger people always hung out there. besides, there's a pub just footsteps away. at the restaurant you can sit outside in the piazza, or inside of the nicely-decorated restaurant. the basement of the place also has seating, and the ceiling is a bunch of archways and cool-looking architectural details. favorite menu items... tortellini panna e prosciutto, or maybe the pizza quattro stagioni. i'm sure my spelling stinks, but the food is delicious either way.

an easy, nice side trip away from florence that's nearby is the hilltop village of fiesole. there are some ancient ruins that are cool to see, but the main draw in my opinion is just the slower pace of things and the beautiful views. it's a good place to have a cafe corretto (con grappa, naturalmente!) and kick back. walk up the footpaths to the promontory in front of the monastery for some of the best views of florence besides those from the piazzale michelangelo/san miniato. i'd check them both out.

i'm jealous of your opportunity. soak it in. enjoy it. don't get TOO fixated on a schdule, because things don't operate like the do in germany (on schedule).

[jrredho]

I've only been to Italy once, when my gf did the Rome marathon a few
years ago, and ended up doing a tour similar to the OP's proposed one.
I have to say I love that place.

While I certainly agree that the countryside locales are really
pleasant, I couldn't disagree more with many posters here who are
counseling you to truncate your visits to Rome and Florence.

I don't know a darn thing about art and architecture (A&A), and I was
blown away by these things in both Rome and Florence.

Rome's a funny place architecturally: You can be walking around some
neighborhood, look closely, and find that you're standing by some
remnant of a structure built in 1000 BC. This happens all the time on
very typical walkabouts.

Of course, we did the Vatican Museum/Sistine Chapel tour recommended
above. We got there via the subway, and before heading back to the
hostel we were staying at via the train after our tour (which also
blew me away), we went to the bakery across the street from the steps
leading to the subway and bought two or three types of pizza---which
they sold by the pound---and sat in the park and ate them while
drinking a killer bottle of wine we got at a nearby corner store.
Life in Rome can be spectacular on many levels.

i'm jealous of your opportunity. soak it in.
enjoy it. don't get TOO fixated on a schdule, because things don't
operate like the do in germany (on schedule).

Thanks goodness acostiga came to rescue you from some of those
advising you to truncate your visit to Florence. There's no way I'd
walk out of that town without going to the Uffizi and the Accademia.
You will see the original artwork for many, many iconic masterpieces.
The Uffizi took me an entire day. As I wrote above, I don't know jack
about art, but that place blew me away as well.

Get on the InterWebs and figure out the game plan for those places, as
well as any other you learn about in your search. Sometimes tickets
at places are hard to come by, and you'll definitely want to reserve
your entry time for the Uffizi as far in advance as is feasible.
Otherwise, you'll face being shortchanged on time.

Apart from the A&A thing, we actually hubbed out of Florance for 4 or
5 days, and found some incredible non-touristy places to eat and hang
out; acostiga's post reminded me of our stay there.

Finally, how can we go this far in an Italy thread with only one
passing comment on espresso? Shit, man, I was drinking 6 or 8 of
those things a day by the time I got dragged by my shirt collar from
Italy. You're going to love that place...

Have fun,
john

[utsnowgirl]

Thanks for the responses - I really appreciate the suggestions and advice.

I've done some researching on the interweb, and have a guidebooks and some maps. We'll take the laptop, too, so we'll have access to other info as well.

Good thing to know about some sites being closed - I'll definitely look into that before we go.

I've heard mixed things about Venice - some people say stay longer and appreciate the local charm, others say one day is enough. I guess we can play this one by ear (especially if it's underwater!). I think I'm convinced to spend more time in Rome, though.

I have no desire to spend any time in Milan - from what I heard, it's the financial district - blah, blah, blah.

Can't wait to eat good food (gelato, here I come!) and I hear that wine is cheaper than water.

I'm still sorta worried that we'll be traveling around too much, but by not booking anything in advance, I guess we have a lot of flexibility. I'd like to see the sites, but also experience some local culture as well. I'm much more of a sleepy, small, town person than a busy, big, city person.

Again - thanks for all the replies. Can't wait!!