Recco Rescue System?

G · 12-11-2003, 04:53 AM

Go back up and read what ripzalot wrote. that's all you really need to know.

I hear many european clothing manufacturers include them in the jacket. I think it is common to have them stuck into boots in europe too.

the reflectors are cheap, around 20, and recco supplies the portable radar to ski resorts for free.

I would NEVER bank my life on that system, unless I knew that my spotter had the radar turned on and ready to go. under those circumstances, however, I think recovery might be even better (since they also display burial depth).

don't be a dumbass. wear a 457.

Kirkwood has just one, it's at the top of caples crest chair. take a guess what the deployment time would be for a slide at the top of palisades.

**Ripzalot** · 12-11-2003, 06:16 AM

Originally posted by Greydon Clark
Also, beacons and the Recco are for rich kids, I do all my BC with 30 feet of rope trailing behind me. [/B]

I seriously hope you're joking. A good (the best!) beacon cost only about $300. Are you really THAT cheap? My life is worth way more than that. I even just bought myself an avalung (another $100 bucks) to buy me a few more precious recovery minutes. Considering an ABS pack too.

**Dexter Rutecki** · 12-11-2003, 10:03 AM

There's no way he was joking about that, man.

**summit** · 12-11-2003, 12:50 PM

Originally posted by phUnk
They could find them just as easily with a metal detector. No need for Recco wafers.

Recco is a highly directional hand held microwave emitter that hits a specific recco diode or can work with any other electronics with appropriate diodes.

The recco transmitter will work work at 100 yards.

A avvy beacon or a cellphone might only work at 20ft.

It's not just for body recovery. If you have a recco system, a chopper can find you with it simply shooting around.

Recco units are a lot smaller than a GOOD metal detector and a lot more likely to be sent in on the first team responding.

A lot of US resorts have them recco transceivers and the Summit County Rescue Group operates with it at times. Several Summit County resorts operate them.

Recco diodes will be installed in high end clothing, most helmets, and many ski boots starting next season.

Recco is no subsitute for a beacon.

Be assured that hte above will be corrected.

**Dr. Crash** · 12-11-2003, 01:28 PM

I've got both Recco and a transceiver. Not because I am paranoid but because as mentionned in Europe it's common to have the Recco reflectors embedded in clothes and mine are like that. I don't see why it would hurt and it'd be nice if manufacturers did that here too. I am sure that the wholesale cost is far less than $20. By the way if you buy some for yourself, you want one close to your boots and one close to your head.

drC

**Greydon Clark** · 12-11-2003, 03:54 PM

Originally posted by Ripzalot
I seriously hope you're joking. A good (the best!) beacon cost only about $300. Are you really THAT cheap? My life is worth way more than that. I even just bought myself an avalung (another $100 bucks) to buy me a few more precious recovery minutes. Considering an ABS pack too.

Yeah, I was joking, it's really 45 feet of chord, but I cut the straps off my poles so I'll float to the top of the slide.

**Helicrackjnky** · 12-11-2003, 04:13 PM

Pretty funny my friend bought a Prada jacket and could not figure out what the piece of metal in the jacket was thought it was a security device returned it & the Store could not explain what it was (Needlesss Markups). Any way I could not stop laughing my ass off as I tried to explain to her what it was and the Recco's purpose,She then went on to ask me if I knew of anyway to get it out of her sleeve!!
Yes she is blond & I am sure I will get jonged but I am still Laughing about the whole subject that the Gapers had no clue and thought the jacket was defective!!!

**phUnk** · 12-11-2003, 04:21 PM

Originally posted by SummitCo 1776
[B]Recco is a highly directional hand held microwave emitter that hits a specific recco diode or can work with any other electronics with appropriate diodes.

The recco transmitter will work work at 100 yards.

A avvy beacon or a cellphone might only work at 20ft.

It's not just for body recovery. If you have a recco system, a chopper can find you with it simply shooting around.

I will get Recco flavored clothing so the choppers can find me when they do their Random Recco Recon Runs. Or not.

You'll also note that my post about a metal detector was specific to finding lost skis. Putting these magical Recco wafers on skis, on the other hand, brings us back to the "what will they dig out of the avie, your skis or you?" question.

Also, buy a better beacon. Preferably one with a range greater than 20 ft.

**Mountainman** · 12-11-2003, 06:10 PM

Do the wafers placed in ski bounce the same signal that the ones in the coat do? or do they have a different frequency that gets bounced off?

**summit** · 12-11-2003, 10:16 PM

I WROTE THE LAST POST IN HASTE

I was on my way out. here are some corrections:

The recco transmitter will work work at 100+ feet.

A avvy beacon or a cellphone might only work at 8ft.

END

Still once again:
Recco is no subsitute for a beacon.
I want to expand on this... by the time SAR comes looking, only about 13% survive (trying to remember that statistic from the powerpoint presentation). Companion or self rescue is what you should concentrate on. That is why it is no substitute for a beacon.

Recco is not *just* for body recovery, but a becaon is only a fancy corppse locator if your buddy doesn't have one too.

HOWEVER

As people have mentioned, implementation is still minimal in the US. Recco units are often given away free to resorts or rescue groups to speed the implementation by gear manufacturers of recco diodes. That is why many places have hte units. But, for example, Summit County Rescue Group currently does not deploy the recco units unless other search methods have failed due to the current rarity of recco diodes. We would much rather get a dog in there than a recco unit. This will probably change in the future as more things get recco diodes.

Originally posted by phUnk
I will get Recco flavored clothing so the choppers can find me when they do their Random Recco Recon Runs. Or not.

You'll also note that my post about a metal detector was specific to finding lost skis. Putting these magical Recco wafers on skis, on the other hand, brings us back to the "what will they dig out of the avie, your skis or you?" question.

Also, buy a better beacon. Preferably one with a range greater than 20 ft.

All points here are on the spot.

Especially on the skis since they are prone to come off (and you should lose them if possible).

I personally didn't hear anything about recco wafers in skis at the seminar I was just at (Dale Atkins, CAIC, gave a cool presentation of avalanche rescue technology, i'll make a post on the conference in a bit).

I think maybe the ski thing is a rumor?

It only makes sense to put the diode/reflector in items that rarely come off: boots, jackets, helmets. It makes no sense to put them in skis, poles, or packs (on that note... FOR GODS SAKES DON'T EVER WEAR YOUR BEACON IN YOUR PACK (i know you know but people still do it anyways and packs get found in 5 minutes with nobody attatched, the corpse gets found two hours later with a probe line)

If recco can more or less eventually eliminate the need for probe lines, SAR types will be very happy. Probe lines suck balls.

On the metal detectors... those are used in search missions as well... so is ground penetrating radar.

As to the dog beacons, I think those transmit on a different frequency just like the old ortovox ski maus ski beacons. If not, good point.

Dr. Crash... how much was that recco gun unit?

**Telepath** · 12-12-2003, 08:04 AM

Without having read anything of the above thread except the original question I`ll enter this from my experiences of working with french mountain security over the years.

Recco works really well in order to recover corpses! Seldom (though it does happen) are the rescue people at the scene with Recco gear fast enough to recover anyone alive. But when the Recco people show up the find people really fast and efficient. Therefore I have recco thingies on all my boots and on my transceiver straps; it`ll make it easier to recover me should anything serious happen. Mostly because I don`t fancy spending a lot of years being deepfrozen should I end up somewhere stupid, so it`s mostly as a sort on consolidation to tose around me. I wouldn`t expect the Recco thingies to ever save my life. But at 20usd a pair, why not have them?

**Hacksaw** · 12-14-2003, 01:12 PM

FYI, the Recco Systems website address is:

www.reccona.com

Cheers,
Halsted

**summit** · 02-05-2004, 07:20 PM

Recco was used to locate people in the last year in Europe.

I person was found at ~17ft by Recco reflecting off diodes in their cellphone.

Another person was found at less than 15ft by Recco reflecting off diodes in their digital camera.

SUMMIT COUNTY SKIERS: SUMMIT COUNTY RESCUE SOP NOW IS TO DEPLOY RECCO ASAP ON ALL AVALANCHE CALLS

So get something with a Recco reflector!

**Ripzalot** · 02-06-2004, 06:32 AM

Originally posted by SummitCo 1776
Recco was used to locate people in the last year in Europe.

I person was found at ~17ft by Recco reflecting off diodes in their cellphone.

Another person was found at less than 15ft by Recco reflecting off diodes in their digital camera.

SUMMIT COUNTY SKIERS: SUMMIT COUNTY RESCUE SOP NOW IS TO DEPLOY RECCO ASAP ON ALL AVALANCHE CALLS

So get something with a Recco reflector!

why? i normally have a cell phone AND a digital camera. i'm already double-covered.

but hey, wait a minute! that means if i have them in my pack, and my pack gets separated from me in an avy (like you're supposed to do), you guys are going to be digging out my pack first.

**summit** · 02-06-2004, 11:39 PM

Why? Because a Recco diode is detectable at TEN TIMES the range of the diodes in your diigital devices.

We would dig up whatever we hear...

Recco is another component of the search...

visual search, beacon search, scuff search, dog search, hasty probing, and oral search will be employed as always!

edited to add:
Your pack may be ulled off of you by the forces of the slide but...

YOU SHOULD NEVER DITCH YOUR PACK IN AN AVALACHE! EVER!

ALL OF YOUR GEAR IS IN THERE!

Shovel and probe to find your buddies incase you aren't fulyl burried...

medical, clothing, food, and water to sustain you until help arrives if you or your buddy are hurt. commo gear to summon help

The pack also provides spine protection!!!

**iceman** · 02-06-2004, 11:57 PM

Take a breath, dude.

**Ripzalot** · 02-07-2004, 06:46 AM

Originally posted by SummitCo 1776

YOU SHOULD NEVER DITCH YOUR PACK IN AN AVALACHE! EVER!

ALL OF YOUR GEAR IS IN THERE!

Shovel and probe to find your buddies incase you aren't fulyl burried...

medical, clothing, food, and water to sustain you until help arrives if you or your buddy are hurt. commo gear to summon help

The pack also provides spine protection!!!

every avy book and course i've seen has said to ditch your pack and skis if caught in a slide. when travelling thru potentially dangerous zones, you should always unbuckle your pack as prep to ditch it in an emergency.

Example: "Remove any and all cumbersome items such as your backpack, ski's, and ski poles. The extra weight of these items is not only cumbersome but can also weigh you down when trying to swim and stay above the snow."
http://vava.essortment.com/howdoisurvive_rgmv.htm

i can see your point about wanting to have the gear in your pack for your buddies' rescue, but the idea is that <i> you are the one in the slide </i> and you need to do everything possible to keep yourself on top. there are an infinite number of possible avalanche scenarios. these are all just general guidelines. we can all come up with specific situations where one or the other may or may not be correct.

regarding recco, i'm not dissing it completely. for $25 it serves its purpose. the real question is how fast someone with the receiver gear can get to you. for inbounds avys, this may be possible. out-of-bounds this is probably questionable. i think the real push should be to get beacons to be commonplace. you have much more chance of survival if the people you are with can perform a near instant recovery mission instead of waiting X minutes for the recco team to show up.

$.02

**Tippster** · 02-07-2004, 10:01 AM

Some dude from Recco was walking around at Alf's Restaurant deck yesterday scanning the crowd. He said they're stationing the hand-held locators all over the mountain at most major resorts.

Hey, for $20, why not? Nearly weightless and you'll never know they're there until you need them He said all Killy gear has them in the lining...

**summit** · 02-07-2004, 06:51 PM

Ripzalot... I agree beacons are the best route... as I said... a recco reflector is no subistute for a beacon... only a suppliment. For a near weightless nonbattery powered $25 sytem, eveyone should have one of those too!

Poles and skis? Ditch em! Pack?

"Whether or not a pack should be discarded is an open question. A bckpack limits maneuverability in flowing snow (particularly if heavy), but it prevents back injuries if obstacles are hit. Dropping a pack results in loss of rescue and first-aid equipment and clothing that might be needed later."

-The Avalanche Handbook by David McClung & Peter Schaerer, page 178
Survival Stratey Strategy when Caught Unprotected

(The Avalanche Handbook is pretty much the endall textbook on the subject)

"If Possible discard cumbersome gear such as skis, ski poles, and pack (if it is heavy) although this is much easier said than done... You might, however want to keep a light pack with you as it may help protect your back and the gear in it will probably be helpfull in an emergency situation."

-Snow Sense by Jill Fredston & Doug Fesler, page 104 revised edition
Rescue Plan - As a Victim

"4. Do not wear ski safety straps and ski pole wrist loops; skis and poles attatched to a person hold a body down in an avalanche. In addition, atatched skis and poles can cause injury by snagging trees and rocks or hitting their owner during descent in an avalacnhe. All skis used in potential avalanche terrain (including telemark and cross-country skis) should have release bindings"

-The Avalanche Handbook by David McClung & Peter Schaerer, page 175
Precautions When Traveling - Backcountry Travel

Those airbag packs would have all your gear in em too...

Many resorts have Recco detectors including Vail, Breckenridge, Copper Mountain, Loveland, Aspen, Snowmass, Aspen Highlands, Alpental, Wolf Creek, and many more throughout Colorado... I don't kjnow what their deployment plans are for their recco detectors in the case of a slide.