Care and feeding of your Dukes or Barons

[Spats]

Here are some helpful hints I've discovered or collected for keeping Dukes or Barons happy and functional. Please post yours!

1) The center screw keeps the toepiece anchored, and there is a lot of stress on it. If this screw spins or is weak, it can come out. Then the toe plate will snap and leave you stranded.

First, I recommend hand-mounting them yourself. How to screw in binding screws: DO NOT USE A DRILL OR SCREW SHOOTER! Use a #3 Posi or Phillips, and push down HARD on the screwdriver as you start the threads into the ski. Push down as hard as you can, turn slowly, and keep pushing as you tighten the screw. This will ensure that the screw cuts threads cleanly into the ski, so it won't pull out.

I don't use glue or epoxy, I always use a 5/32 bit, wood or metal, and I've never, ever spun a screw in any ski or had a screw pull out...even when I skied an entire day with screws I forgot to tighten down and there was about 1/8" of air underneath the binding

I've never seen a shop do this...just BRAAAP BRAAAP with the screw shooter. This is why those center screws come out.

UPDATE: the new Duke and Baron EPF (the ones with the wider mounting pattern) do not have a slot for the middle screw. Just tighten it down like you do the others.

Legacy hint for first-generation Duke and Baron, with the slot for the center screw: Do *not* tighten the center screw down hard. You'll notice that the toe plate has a slot for this screw, because it's designed to allow that part of the baseplate to move somewhat when the ski flexes. (Otherwise deeply flexing the ski would break the toe plate, a problem some people have had.) There's an official torque spec of 4.5nm, but most of us don't have a torque wrench...it should be snug enough to keep the toe plate from lifting up, but not so tight that it can't slide back and forth. (Special thanks to 1000-oaks for the above bit of engineering detective work.)

2) Setting toe height is tricky. The boot toe wants to sit down against the AFD when it's in the binding, so you might think the toe is tight when there's still a huge amount of space. This will cause slop and prereleases.

You must push the boot toe upward, so that it's flush with the top of the toepiece, before checking the clearance under the toe.

I believe not doing this is the cause of most AFD breakage. People complain that the AFDs are weak, but if your toe height is too high, you'll be directing a lot of sudden impacts onto the edge of the AFD platform as your toe rattles up and down.

3) It's tough to get the boot into the binding when the forward pressure is set correctly: you have to push the dildo all the way down onto the ski, and even then it scrapes a bit on the way in. That's just how it is.

4) If you can't easily flip the binding back into ski mode, DO NOT FORCE THE LEVER. (This is how you bend or break it, and it also causes increased fore-aft slop over time.) Most likely there is snow or ice under the rails of the heel plate that's mounted to the ski. It doesn't take much.

Use the end of a zipper pull or your keys to scrape the snow out from under the rails, and the binding should easily lock into ski mode. Snow on the toepiece rails doesn't seem to matter so much.

If the binding still won't budge and there is no snow or ice in the mechanism (i.e. you're inside and it's warm and dry), one of the toepiece screws might have backed out just a little bit. If any of these screws aren't tightened down flush, they'll stick up and jam the toepiece. Try tightening all the toepiece screws.

5) Does your binding have fore-aft slop even when you're clicked into it? Usually this is because the holes for the rivets that anchor the walk lever to the toe plate become enlarged over time. If you're out of warranty, jondrums has a solution in this thread:
http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...d.php?t=140370

However, it's best to follow the advice in 4. above (DO NOT FORCE THE LEVER), because that's most of what rounds out the holes! I've always been very careful with mine, and there's only a couple mm of slop after many seasons of skiing.

6) Over several seasons, the plastic/plastic interface between the heel track and the heel plate wears slightly and gets looser over time, resulting in torsional slop. You can build up the heel plate rails with some cyanoacrylate (Krazy Glue). Just drip a bead on each of the four parts of the rail, smooth it out with a piece of paper (do not use your finger or you will become permanently stuck to the next thing you touch!), let it dry, smooth any rough parts out with sandpaper, and repeat until the track isn't sloppy anymore.


Do you have more advice? Post it here.

[skiingsamurai]

thanks, ive noticed a lot of slop in the toe pressure, ill set it with this in mind

[Sirshredalot]

The little pointy tip of my BD flicklock poles fits into the heel track to clean ice/snow very well.

[AsheanMT]

Good advice on the toe height adjustment (although a competent tech will always do that).

I ALWAYS mount by hand the way you describe (i've got a gnarly blister on my hand from the 15 mounts I did the other day to prove it) BUT I ALWAYS use glue. I use glue for two reasons; 1)To lubricate the threads of the screw as they make their way in and 2) To insure that water can't seep down the threads into the core of the ski.

Honestly, I'm pretty shocked that you don't use glue and think its unacceptable.

[hutash]

Never, ever feed them after midnight.



Oh wait! that's for gremlins.

[critical-motion]

I always use 5-minute epoxy when mounting skis because I've found that it's damn strong, but not so much that the screws can't easily be removed when needed. Also, silicone spray is a great way to lube up the track on the Dukes and reduce snow buildup without collecting gunk.

[Spats]

Honestly, I'm pretty shocked that you don't use glue and think its unacceptable.

That's not what I was trying to say...there are good reasons to use glue, as you rightly point out. I was just noting that when you start and tighten the screws the right way and by hand, the mount is strong enough that you can skip or bobble some of the other steps without a disaster.

[F.D.V.]

Hmmm...I think you are crazy for not using glue. Just my opinion, but, the glue is necessary for the reasons AsheanMT pointed out.

Also, if you run these binders with Spirit 4s, they will be a pain to get in and out of due to the Vibram sole "catching" on the heel lockdown mechanism. Best best is to actually put your foot in the boot, step into the binding, then adjust the BSL screw to be flush, as per instructions.

Hand screw those babies in as already stated! A little steel wool and extra glue for that center screw doesn't hurt anything either!

Also, I prefer not to use a 5/32 bit..better off with a 3.6x9 with the collar so you don't drill too deep!

Good advice though...

And, always remember to recheck your binding setting before each outing!

I also don't trust those templates! I mounted a pair of Dukes last weekend using the template, calipers, and a ton of measure then remeasure and after the mount was done my rear baseplate on both skis (used two different templates also) was off by 1mm for both skis in the same direction. I mean, what is 1mm in the end? Doubt most people would notice, but, something is up with the templates.

[ill-advised strategy]

I strongly agree with ashean

[jondrums]

after the mount was done my rear baseplate on both skis (used two different templates also) was off by 1mm for both skis in the same direction. I mean, what is 1mm in the end? Doubt most people would notice, but, something is up with the templates.

hmmm... 1mm -> that's about half the width of a sharpie marker line. you can't seriously be concerned about that without triggering my internal obsessive compulsive disorder warning buzzer.

[ill-advised strategy]

no way dude...wanting your mount to be precise gets an OCD exemption. That's a standard exemption.

[F.D.V.]

I have to agree with YetiMan...1mm is was unacceptable.

Would I feel it skiing on it...probably not, I'm not stellar skier anyway but I do have some serious OCD when it comes to my mounts. Basically, I want to KNOW it is my fault that I suck and not the skis.

no way dude...wanting your mount to be precise gets an OCD exemption. That's a standard exemption.

[squatch]

heli-coiling that center screw is not a bad precaution.

[F.D.V.]

Yeah, it isn't, but it is unnecessary providing you mount it properly and don't over torque.

heli-coiling that center screw is not a bad precaution.

[squatch]

Yeah, it isn't, but it is unnecessary providing you mount it properly and don't over torque.

Well fuck, they're my skis, I can do all the unnecessary shit I want.

Expensive skis + my fat ass + time and resources = completely overboard mounting job, which I'm fine with.

[jondrums]

no way dude...wanting your mount to be precise gets an OCD exemption. That's a standard exemption.

I'm a perfectionist too! but keep it in check -
dig in your pocket and pull out a dime. That's the thinest piece of change, and its thicker than 1mm wide (1.25mm). Ain't nobody out there that can hand drill a hole in a ski with a tighter tolerance than 1mm. For christ sake, the standard tolerance for a threaded hole using a CNC mill is barely under 0.5mm!

[ill-advised strategy]

fair enough jon, that's a point well made

[jondrums]

now then - 2mm off and we got something to commiserate about...

[F.D.V.]

You really think that 1mm wont make a difference in terms of performance?

Look, I am borderline OCD when it comes to my gear. I like it mounted perfectly straight and perfectly on my BSL. Anything less is just criminal, at least, in my mind.

But you do bring up an interesting point (now pulling thread off topic). What different would 1 mm actually make in a binding mount to a ski? I guess it would depend on the skier. To a professional racer who is on hardpack, then I guess it would matter a lot. For your non-racing/powder whore types it might not be that bad, if even noticable. My only thought we that maybe it would push one ski in (or away) from the other causing bad form, but then again, the snow surface where I ski (Wolf Creek) is never perfect so likely I would be transitioning between keeping the bases flat and transferring to the edges enough that I would never notice.

Would like to see what some others have to say about this.

now then - 2mm off and we got something to commiserate about...

[toast2266]

1mm seems like its within the realm of the slop inherent to any binding mount. I know that I can affect where the binding ends up just by pushing it to one side or the other while tightening the screws down. The conical heads on the screws limits this, but I would say that (at least with some bindings) I can get 1mm of change in the final position of the binding just by shoving it one way or the other while tightening the screws.

[BSS]

Why is the center screw so crucial?

[nick > jesus]

Why is the center screw so crucial?

1) The center screw keeps the entire binding together, and there is a lot of stress on it. I recommend hand-mounting them yourself, because if this screw spins or is weak, it can come out and leave you stranded.

.........

[khyber.pass]

2) Setting toe height is tricky. The boot toe wants to sit down against the AFD when it's in the binding, so you might think the toe is tight when there's still a huge amount of space. This will cause slop and prereleases.

You must push the boot toe upward, so that it's flush with the top of the toepiece, before checking the clearance under the toe.

I use a piece of paper to check AFD, which works fine when adjusting for a DIN sole. However this is tricky with AT soles, and I've found with Scarpa Spirit 4s, for example, that the curve in the Vibram sole will rip the paper before the AFD plate is tight enough. I found this out when I thought I had it good, but the boot 'clicked' in the toepiece when touring, and shifted forward and down slightly. I tightened up the AFD a few mms, and it was now much more solid, even though the paper test was no longer good (the paper ripped).

As for pulling the boot UP, I've never done that. It makes sense given what I've described above.

3) It's tough to get the boot into the binding when the forward pressure is set correctly: you have to push the dildo all the way down onto the ski, and even then it scrapes a bit on the way in. That's just how it is.

YES. It's a very tight fit when checking by hand / not wearing the boots. The worm screw should be flush to the casing.


So far so good with my Dukes.

[BSS]

.........

No, I saw that. That's why I'm asking why. As far as I can tell, the center screw is attached to the same plate as the four other toe screws. (Kinda like not using the fifth screw on a 916 heelpiece?) If the center screw strips, is the plate going to move? Would the touring lever (moving back and forth) snap the plastic plate? How does it "hold the entire binding" together? I'm sure there's something pretty simple here that I'm just not grasping.

[Spats]

Thanks for the input, everyone! I think that proper care and feeding can prevent most of the problems people have with their Dukes or Barons.

Why is the center screw so crucial?

The entire binding slides back and forth on the toepiece rails, and that center screw is the only thing holding it in place. If that screw goes, the binding will slide entirely off the rails, and the ski.

This means that 100% of the forward and backward force on your boot goes straight into that screw, as does 100% of the force from flipping the ski/walk lever up and back. It's easy to put a lot of stress on the lever if you try to lock it into ski mode with snow in the rear track. There's a reason they give you a special big-headed screw for that hole.

It's fine if the screw is properly installed...but as has been said, that's usually not the case with shop mounts.