Ski industry questions:

[alto]

Why do you want to know who owns skiing? Are you going to follow the yellow brick road so you can pull back the curtain and meet the wizard?

What would you say to the wizard if you got to meet her? I'm quite curious.

I heard Greg Stump is The Wizard.

[mr_gyptian]

The Rossi thing is surprising to me too... They seem pretty successful, as always.

How about this angle. Who are the landowners? Up in LCC Dick Bass owns lots of mf'ing land. Not just what Snowbird sits on, but a substantial chunk of backcountry.

Over in Park City the United Park City Mines Company owns a ton of that property: http://www.business.com/directory/re...mines/profile/

Basically I'm just trying to get an idea of who owns skiing.

"Can anyone own skiing?" -Chief Jong

[iceman]

What would you say to the wizard if you got to meet her?

"I put on my robe and wizard hat.", duh.

[Yossarian]

"I put on my robe and wizard hat.", duh.

[Tatsuno]

You took the podium dood, I think YOU OWN skiing.

Hahahahaha...werd. Fo sho...fo sho

[powski3]

Powdr sucks, from what they demonstrate at Bachelor.

[Arty50]

Dear Filthy Ski Bums,

We hear your concerns and feel troubled by what's going on the industry. I mean, you guys actually want us to pay you something above a slave wage or even accept said slave wage but demand that you be able to ski also. I mean what are you thinking. You'll get nothing or like it! Or else we'll replace you with workers of questionable immigration status. Our Hispanic friends love the snow. Also, since it's not so hot in the mountains, we don't need to give them a siesta in the afternoon.

Oh and as for real estate, we should be able to build whatever we want wherever we want. Oh and how can you argue with Starbucks. It appeals to Americans sense of mediocrity. Damn the local coffee shops. And Cinnabon is great too. Nothing says "I'M AWAKE" like a nice sugar crack laden cinnabon and a grande non-fat half-caf double soy latte ginger mocha!!!

Oh and we take special exception at all the bitching that goes on here about Kirkwood. So what if the lifts are ancient. We don't care about the hippies from the bay area or meth heads from Stockton. It's all about selling real estate and then plowing all the money back into Durango Mountain Resort (Purgatory was just not a family friendly name), cause everyone knows that Texans have all the money and they love Coloradee...yeeeehaaaaawwwww!!! So quit bitching about lifts that shut down every 5 seconds or run at 1/4 speed. Just be happy we don't raise the pass price back up to Squaw levels. Not that we'd replace the lifts then anyway.

Sincerely,
CBSAA - Cheap Bastard Ski Area Association

[hway2]

its oldish news, but K2, Inc. is in the process of being sold (or has alread been sold) to Jarden for $1.2b.

[alto]

hmmmm.... jarden.com

Overview
Jarden Corporation is a leading provider of niche consumer products used in and around the home. Jarden operates in three primary business segments through a number of well recognized brands, including: Branded Consumables: Ball®, Bee®, Bicycle®, Crawford®, Diamond®, First Alert®, Forster®, Hoyle®, JavaLog®, Kerr®, Lehigh®, Leslie-Locke®, Loew-Cornell® and Pine Mountain®; Consumer Solutions: Bionaire®, Crock-Pot®, FoodSaver®, Harmony®, Health o meter®, Holmes®, Mr. Coffee®, Oster®, Patton®, Rival®, Seal-a-Meal®, Sunbeam®, VillaWare® and White Mountain™; and Outdoor Solutions: Abu Garcia®, Berkley®, Campingaz®, Coleman®, Fenwick®, Gulp®, Mitchell®, Stren® and Trilene®. Headquartered in Rye, N.Y., Jarden has over 20,000 employees worldwide.

20,000 emps? I only need two dudes to make my skis.

[fullers2oh]

the question i have is what are you goin ta do once you figure out who owns what?

get out of the resort world and ride more backcountry! no matter how much changes at the one lift serviced mtn i do ride regularly - mammoth - i take solace in knowing there are sooooo many other peaks out there just waiting to be ridden and no stinking corporation is gonna change any of that!

[alto]

the question i have is what are you goin ta do once you figure out who owns what?

get out of the resort world and ride more backcountry! no matter how much changes at the one lift serviced mtn i do ride regularly - mammoth - i take solace in knowing there are sooooo many other peaks out there just waiting to be ridden and no stinking corporation is gonna change any of that!

True.... But riding lifts is REALLY GODDAMN FUN. And not so rich families from all over the goddamn place should be able to do it. Which is who have been handily eliminated.

[Atrain505]

Alto, Tats you need another warrior?

Because I'm ready to join.

[alto]

Tatsuno will be contacting you with further instructions, atrain.

[Cliff Huckable]

Basically I'm just trying to get an idea of who owns skiing.

Those who come to mind...

Hugo Harrison
Shane McConkey
Glenn Plake
Eric Hjorleifson
Doug Coombs
Ingrid Backstrom
Candide Thovex
CR Johnson
Shroder Baker
Seth Morrison
Marc-Andre Belliveau
Alison Gannet
Peter Olenick
Mike Douglas
Kim Reichhelm
Rory Bushfield
Wendy Fisher
Sage Cattabriga-Alosa
a couple of Tanners
anyone ripping it in the comps
maybe even some racers

[Atrain505]

Tatsuno will be contacting you with further instructions, atrain.

Word. I eagerly await them.

[rideit]

Skiing is the golden cash cow, it has been proven over and over again. Never has there been a failed ski resort, in my memory.

Never has there been one owned purely for ego/passion.

Never has one gone under and sold for pennies due to under-capitalization or slack management.

Never has low snow seasons killed a 'too good to be true' project in this industry.

Never have environmental regulations interfered with a sound business plan.

Never have local anti-growth groups made projects come to a halt, or compromised to the point of no profitability.

Never has dreams of being a 'core' skier mountain been compromised by the reality that real estate sells, but lift ticket revenues are actually a joke.

Never has 'summer golf course!/Mt. Bike trails!/Alpine slide!/Spa amenities!/restaurants!/etc' not turned out to be sad pitches for overpriced condo sales to a public that becomes indifferent to those said local amenities, and seek more (expensive and dramatic) recreational opportunities elsewhere.

Questions?

[powdork]

Questions. Yeah. How do you explain this

[gimpy]

i totally agree that resorts are forgetting the little guy. don't know if it still exists but growing up in vt we got out of school for a half day for free skiing and lessons (jisp program). kids that couldn't afford equipment were hooked up and EVERYONE got the chance to learn to ski. here in south tahoe, i'd guess its close to 50% of all school age kids have never set foot at a ski resort or climbed a mtn. sad state but there's just too much bullshit, restrictions, and assholes for my taste so like fullers said the bc is where its at. obviously we're not alone in that bc use at least in tahoe has gone through the roof and i think its a great thing. thats where the soul of skiing is right now.

guerilla tactics ain't gonna change shit. look at the vail fire years ago. all that did was create sympathy for vail resorts and made environmentalists look bad. boycotting resorts is the only option i see but again it won't hurt their wallets much as real estate is king and will always drive the resort juggernaut. good luck on whatever it is you're doing.


now, most importantly, hook a brother up powdork . my knees are ready for some old man sports this summer and always wanted to play bushwood.

[powdork]

don't know if it still exists but growing up in vt we got out of school for a half day for free skiing and lessons (jisp program). kids that couldn't afford equipment were hooked up and EVERYONE got the chance to learn to ski. here in south tahoe, i'd guess its close to 50% of all school age kids have never set foot at a ski resort or climbed a mtn.

There's still lots of good things going on. Heavenly allows a week of skiing (during school) for all 5th graders going to school here on the south shore, including lessons (read:supervision). Sierra gives season passes to all kids with straight A's. kirkwood allows free skiing on Sundays for 2 kids with adult purchase (that even works with a season pass). It's true though, most don't take advantage of what we have here but we still see a lot less overweight kids here than when I head off the hill in any direction.

And I'll keep you in mind.

[focus]

Just b/c Quiksilver's profitable doesn't mean that Rossignol is. It's often difficult to seperate the two -- Daimler and Chrysler is another good example of this. In this case, I'd say being owned by a profitable parent company does nothing but help.... It's been a while since the "soul" of the sport was captured in any of the major brands... the masses need to be fed.

From the WSJ, regarding Quiksilver and Rossignol:

Quiksilver Asks Investors to Hang In
Warm Weather Deals a Blow
To Snow-Gear Division's Sales;
Firm Says Growth Plan on Track
By STEPHANIE KANG
March 16, 2007

Quiksilver Inc. wiped out in one of its first winters since acquiring Skis Rossignol SA, the European ski-equipment maker. Now, some investors are wondering whether to take another run down the slope.

In December, Quiksilver was riding high, buoyed by strong fiscal-fourth-quarter results and the announcement that it had nearly completed the integration of Rossignol, which was acquired in July 2005 for about $305 million. Quiksilver's stock reached a 52-week high. The company houses lifestyle brands rooted in surfing, skateboarding and snowboarding in more than 90 countries under names like Roxy, DC shoes and Hawk clothing, endorsed by skateboarding legend Tony Hawk.

Based in Huntington Beach, Calif., Quiksilver acquired Rossignol to broaden its reach into snow sports, part of a bigger bid to jump into the $47 billion-a-year outdoor market. It also saw an opportunity to extend its popular Quiksilver and Roxy apparel brands into equipment and to similarly introduce a more fashionable line of Rossignol-branded ski jackets, pants and accessories.

But last week, Quiksilver, which has a market value of about $1.4 billion, said that net income plummeted 86.7% in its fiscal first quarter, as an unseasonably warm winter, particularly in Europe, drove retailers to deeply discount goods and pull back on new orders.

Quiksilver Chief Executive Robert McKnight Jr. said Rossignol orders are now down 20% to 25%, telling analysts that some retailers are packing away this winter's Rossignol products and saving them for next year.

The news drove several analysts to downgrade Quiksilver's stock, sending the shares skidding to a 52-week low of $10.90 the day after the company reported its results. Overall, the company's shares, which trade on the New York Stock Exchange, are down 32% since December. The stock ended yesterday's session at $11.40, up 20 cents.

The shares trade at about 20 times estimated per-share earnings for 2007, says Wedbush Morgan Securities analyst Jeff Mintz. That is slightly richer than the overall apparel sector but cheaper than Quiksilver's closest competitor, Volcom Inc.

In a statement, Mr. McKnight maintained that the disappointing results stemmed from "one of the worst snow seasons in history." "While we are obviously not satisfied with our recent results, we remain very confident about our prospects for the future. The integration of Rossignol is on track, and our core brands such as Quiksilver, Roxy and DC are all performing very well."

Overall, the season -- with a lack of snow in many European and some U.S. resort areas -- is taking a toll on nearly everyone in the business. Quiksilver President Bernard Mariette says the overall snow-sports industry is expecting significant declines in orders, including a 5% to 15% drop in snowboard orders, a 10% to 20% decrease in demand for alpine skis and a 20% to 30% decline in cross-country gear world-wide.

The poor ski conditions are overshadowing more positive developments. Sales from its Quiksilver, Roxy and DC brands jumped 17% to $409 million in the fiscal first quarter. But equipment sales, which include Rossignol and club maker Cleveland Golf, dropped 25% to $143 million. Quiksilver also missed its already-once-lowered guidance for the quarter and reduced expectations for the fiscal year.

Retail analyst Todd Slater of Lazard Capital Markets agrees that Quiksilver's woes stem from unfavorable winter weather, and he expects strong sales from Quiksilver's "cross-pollenization" efforts like Roxy snowboards and Rossignol apparel. While he is disappointed with the results, he sees the falling stock price as a good chance for investors.

"When you have the opportunity to buy great brands at discounted prices, I like to do it," says Mr. Slater, who has a "buy" rating on the stock and a 12-month price target of $16. Neither he nor Lazard own the stock and Lazard doesn't do business with Quiksilver.

Regardless of weather conditions, some observers say the Rossignol acquisition will continue to be difficult for the company to manage. Analysts have noted that Quiksilver faces tough competition in the ski-equipment business. And, while 100-year-old Rossignol has strong brand recognition in Europe, it is less well-known in the U.S., where Quiksilver maintains some of its strongest retail relationships. Some are concerned that Quiksilver might not generate enough cash to significantly pay down the company's $1 billion of debt, especially if demand for core brands like Quiksilver or Roxy slows.

While still small, Rossignol's apparel operation, which includes a collaboration with fashion house Pucci, has proved successful. The high-end fashion brand, under the direction of Christian Lacroix, has splashed its trademark colorful swirly patterns onto Rossignol ski suits and accessories, along with skis.

The product-extension playbook has paid off for Quiksilver in the past. Founded in 1976 as a surf-wear brand, Quiksilver rocketed to $2.4 billion in sales in 2006 by consistently expanding beyond its surf roots. Its three core brands -- Quiksilver, Roxy and DC -- are sold in a variety of stores, from upscale shops like Neiman Marcus to California surf shops.

Analysts who downgraded the stock say they plan on waiting on the sidelines until they see signs of a better ski season next year.

While impressed with Rossignol's apparel collection, Mr. Mintz, of Wedbush Morgan, says "it doesn't answer the near-term question of the company's ability to manage the hard-goods business." Mr. Mintz downgraded Quiksilver to a "sell" recommendation from a "hold" earlier this month. He doesn't own the stock. Wedbush doesn't own any Quiksilver shares nor does it do business with the company.

[verbier61]

tecnica group too - Tecnica, nordica, blizzard, dolomite(?) think some other stuff....

... marker, lowa....

[verbier61]

The Compagnies des Alpes (or other similar companies) does not own any resort, in the US sense. They operate (in France) and own (in Italy or Switzerland only) the lift system and are responsible for grooming, pass sales etc. The Compagnie does not "own" the resort, the shops, the ski schools etc...

in switzerland, CdA has relevant stock, but no more than 49% of the lift system of spots like verbier and saas-fee

[philippeR]

Just b/c Quiksilver's profitable doesn't mean that Rossignol is. It's often difficult to seperate the two -- Daimler and Chrysler is another good example of this. In this case, I'd say being owned by a profitable parent company does nothing but help.... It's been a while since the "soul" of the sport was captured in any of the major brands... the masses need to be fed.

From the WSJ, regarding Quiksilver and Rossignol:

Interesting read, thank you.
Here's a centenarian compagny, basicaly profitable but operating on a seasonal field, going through a tough season and every analyst is going amok. Way to ruin a good brand by focusing on short term benefit.
All that speak about wear is really typical. The plan is to use rossi credibility, built for decades of ski making, to sell clothes. That may be fashionable for 2 or 3 seasons and generate huge benefits, then that will become lame and has-been. As the brand itself. That will be dropped.
I'm rather surprised to hear that the Rossignol brand is "less well known" in the US though. "Less" like "not" ?

[philippeR]

in switzerland, CdA has relevant stock, but no more than 49% of the lift system of spots like verbier and saas-fee

Correct. I heard they were not too thrilled in Verbier at the time...
They control Courmayeur in Italy, and have gain control of Sofival earlier this month. Sofival own the STVI which operate in Val d'Isère and thus the CdA now control all the Espace Killy, as they already operated in Tignes. (Sofival also run Avoriaz)
CdA also runs theme parks, like the parc Asterix.

Someone stops them, quick !

[verbier61]

Correct. I heard they were not too thrilled in Verbier at the time...

right now CdA has about 20% of televerbier stock. 30% or so is spreaded and the remaining 50% is in the hands of some swiss people (some 4-5 or so local families). The commune de bagnes has some 5%. Overall, it has been a decent blend so far, with CdA money for big investments (and televerbier has actually made some big tech improvements in recent years) and some local hands on the helm... let's hope for the best for the future