Photography 101 questions

**postman22** · 10-10-2006, 01:50 PM

Bought a Canon Eos 30d about 4 months ago.

I'm having a lot of trouble taking action shots in the woods specifically biking.

I find that if I take a flash to get better light I can't take multiple shots.

If I don't take a flash my pictures are fuzzy.

Can anyone explain from experience what the optimal shutter speed/aperature settings for biking in woods with limited light is

Here are two pictures I took the other day

One is with a flash the other isn't

**pechelman** · 10-10-2006, 01:52 PM

sounds like you're using the auto exposure
set it to a Shutter priority and shoot
depending on what effect you're looking for, anywhere from 1/125 to 1/500 or even higher should suffice
from that distance a camera flash wont do a whole lot
if your lens isnt fast enough to expose correctly, bump up your sensor speed rating, ie change from 100 to 400.

go play and experiement with what you like

edit: re aperature which I forgot to answer. Its convinient to shoot with a higher f-stop so you have more distance thats within your cameras focal plane. But with a good autofocus its usually not a huge deal. Otherwise unless you're going for some special depth-of-field, shoot wide open if your lens is sharp.

also one thing to remember is that your subject is the rider and not the woods. depending on what you want to do of course, but expose the shot for the subject. you can generally let the camera take care of this by changing how your camera meters light, ie center-weight vs avg etc

**The AD** · 10-10-2006, 01:53 PM

Shoot with aperture priority and use the widest aperture (smallest number) possible. This will require the shortest shutter speed possible and your photos will be less blurred. You can also try to pan some shots. I'm not a fan of the unnatural lighting a flash gives.

The larger aperture will also serve to reduce the depth-of-field and the subject will "jump out" more because the background will be out of focus.

**Tippster** · 10-10-2006, 01:56 PM

Track the biker. This will blur the forest relative to them and give the impression of speed.

Also, if you want to use flash in that scenario you'd need a fast cycling power source for multiple exposures. Get an external battery for your flash - you're not trying to use the built-in one, are you?

You could also try either bumping up your ISO setting to tell your camera to be more light sensitive, thus allowing you to shoot at your fastest f-stop (lowest number - most open) with a faster shutter speed. Try to get into the 1/250 range at least... 1/500 if they're really hauling ass.

**mtbakerskier** · 10-10-2006, 02:00 PM

Try F8, Iso 100 Shutter speed at 1/250 and postion the flashes so that they provide enough light to give a meter reading of F8 at half power or less.

Basically, you need to use a flash to stop the action, and set the camera's shutter speed as fast as possible as the flash synch will allow to create a 1~2 stop differnce between the flash and ambient light.

You will need a good incident meter that also measures flash.

**cab9** · 10-10-2006, 02:06 PM

That looks a lot like Squamish riding. You probably don't have flashes powerful enough to freeze the action, unless you spent $3000+ so work with a higher shutter speed. You will have to bump up your iso to 400 and if you want to shoot in the trees, try to shoot when its not bluebird, since you get "hot spots" through the spaces in the trees.
Shutter priority or manual to get the right shutter speed ie 1/250 bare minimum, I would go 500 +.
WIth the flash you have you could get closer to the rider and pan with the flash and it might freeze the action and the background will be blurred.
I know how much of a pain in the ass it is to shoot in the trees, just keep experimenting.
Hi speed B&W makes for cool effects, ie 1600 iso.
Is it Squamish? The Shore?

**Staggerwing** · 10-10-2006, 02:07 PM

Give yourself a break, while not too difficult, its not intuitive. Of course, with digital, you won't have to pay for film and developing like us old timers.

A couple of things. You are likely going to need a shutte speed in the 1/500 range, or possibly faster to freeze a fast moving biker. But, in the dappled light you show, you may not have enough light to achieve high shutter speeds, with a reasonable aperture. In addition, to me, a completely frozen rider looks artificial. If thats what you want, you can try operating in shutter priority mode, and keep dialing up the effective film speed (ISO setting) to get workable apertures. You can also try slower shutter speeds, but panning with the subject. Its best if you lock onto your subject well before you intend to take the shot, hit the shutter at the right moment, and continue to follow through. Think smooth, sweeping motions.

I would suggest panning, with shutter speeds in the 1/30-1/250 range, in conjunction with your flash, setting the sync to "slow/rear curtain." Slow means the the primary exposure is still from ambient lighting, with the flash just providing fill, and rear curtain sync sets the flash off just before the shutter closes. You should get some blur in the background and wheels, with a sharp core.

**mtbakerskier** · 10-10-2006, 02:08 PM

[QUOTE=cab9;936287]That looks a lot like Squamish riding. You probably don't have flashes powerful enough to freeze the action, unless you spent $3000+ so work with a higher shutter speed. QUOTE]

A couple of Vivitar 283's or 285 can easily provide enough light and there less than 75.00 a pop

**cab9** · 10-10-2006, 02:11 PM

Ya Grant, but I am assuming he is only shooting an on camera flash, trying to illuminate(like that) the whole scene or at least more of it.
With out PW's and multiple flashes, thats a hard scene to light up in daylight.
Congrats on the RedBull comp.

**cj001f** · 10-10-2006, 02:12 PM

Get some pocketwizards http://www.pocketwizard.com/HTML/plus.asp and some cheap/bright flashes to go with. Some of the Sekonic lightmeters will allow to control/test the pocketwizard'd flashes.

**dima** · 10-10-2006, 02:14 PM

whats your lens, stock? 17-55?

2 options:
no flash: (high sutter speed, wide appreture, high ISO) in general
external fast cycling flash like 580ex or something (though you dont have to go top of the line) you can pretty much do what you want with this.

P.S. with that lens I would pre focus on where the subject will pass.

**postman22** · 10-10-2006, 02:16 PM

thanks for all the suggestions. i will try shutter speeds in the 1/250/500 range and just keep playing around with it

yeah thats diamond head on squamish. the trail is upper ditch pig. the drop is about 16 feet to a 20 foot gap. my buddy is good enough to get sponsered so im tyring to get him some photos i just dont have a damn idea what im doing when im in the trees

**mtbakerskier** · 10-10-2006, 02:16 PM

Cab9, good points. And I second Cj' suggestion of some pocketwizards, but this is for the ideal (read not cheap) solution.

**cab9** · 10-10-2006, 02:55 PM

Your buddy must be really good if he is gapping 20' on the ditch pig gap, since the transition will be 5' behind him........sorry man had to give you a hard time on that one.........

**postman22** · 10-10-2006, 03:30 PM

Originally Posted by cab9

Your buddy must be really good if he is gapping 20' on the ditch pig gap, since the transition will be 5' behind him........sorry man had to give you a hard time on that one.........

haha first time he did he overshot the damn thing by about 15 feet and broke his foot

hes still clearing it by a good amount

**AstroPax** · 10-10-2006, 04:57 PM

Originally Posted by postman22

Can anyone explain from experience what the optimal shutter speed/aperature settings for biking in woods with limited light is

The "optimal shutter speed/aperature setting" is whatever ends up looking best to you...because photography is art...and it's all very subjective.

I think you need more light.

Go here and rent the 10 ton grip package, and a bunch of lights to go along with it:

http://www.cinelease.com/rentalequip...ckpackages.htm

That should solve most of your problems.

-Astro

**Atrain505** · 10-10-2006, 09:05 PM

And he does it on a hardtail. That crazy Mullet!!

**ak_powder_monkey** · 10-10-2006, 09:11 PM

apeture priority, or shutter priority for sure, alsu use exposure compensation and make it up to -1 ev so you will meter for a better freeze frame. Also use the highest iso that you can get away with

**SherpaStyle** · 10-10-2006, 09:13 PM

Good info here, but check out Canon's Tutorial page . There's a lot of camera specific/technique info that's pretty helpful.

**midget** · 10-10-2006, 09:39 PM

I hate to do this but don't listen to what AKPM just said. You will end up with some shitty photos going with that method. If you use a flash you are most likely going to have one shot at things per run through since it takes time for the flash to recycle it's power. Also, you will find that flash either the one that's built on your camera (popup) or if you get one and mount it to your hotshoe on camera is going to not look very good.

For flashes to work well in action you really need to go with a wireless system to get the flashes off the camera and make things look good. Of course that sucks since it costs lots of money. If you are going to shoot in the trees go with what Cab9 and Grant said......either cloudy, start panning with the action or get going with flashes. Of course it just depends on how good of photos you are looking to get too.

Shooting outside the trees, well that's a different story.

Revisiting the shutter speed thing if you are shooting at a side angle and are looking to freeze the action, you will need a higher shutter speed to freeze things, then when you are shooting head-on to the action to stop things. Of course it all depends on speed, but in the situation above it's probably i nthe 1/500-1/1000 range as he shouldn't be going that fast.

Hope that helps.

4-TEEF · 10-10-2006, 10:07 PM

My 2 cents...

I agree with the advice about using a faster shutter speed. Read the manual, figure out how turn up the ISO of your camera and shoot in Shutter Priority mode with a speed of at least 1/500. I also think you could get some neat panning shots with a slow shutter speed too - but you might want to be more "side on" for panning...

A number of pros here have given you good advice on using flashes and I think they are key to REALLY nailing the shot. I do think that you can get a perfectly acceptable shot without flashes though.

Looking closely at your pics I think you are also overexposing a little bit - especially the first one - because the highlights on the take off ramp look totally blown out. In tricky light with a lot of dark trees like this I like to shoot in Manual mode and underexpose by 1 to 1.5 stops. My 20D(probably your 30D too) shows how much you are over/under exopsed in the viewfinder so you can adjust shutter speed to get were you want.

You are probably going to need to spend a LOT of time sitting at home, fiddling with the camera and reading the manul before you figure all this shit out. Best of luck!

**midget** · 10-10-2006, 10:27 PM

shit, that's the best advice yet. learn the manual functions of your camera first!

**wanghoeby** · 10-10-2006, 10:40 PM

Sorry, for the hijack here.

When I was in the forests of Warshington this summer, there were a lot of photos that turned out like the attached; areas where it was over saturated. I just started getting to the point this summer where I always use manual aperture and shutter speed but have left the ISO on auto.

My hunch is that the auto ISO had something to do with this; opinions?

**Deep Days** · 10-10-2006, 11:09 PM

Shooting with my Canon S2, I find that high ISO tends to come out really noisy. Is this a function of the specific camera, or is this true will all cameras at higher ISO (mine only goes to 400).

My philosophy thus far has been to crank down the ISO as far as I can get away with while obtaining what I feel is correct exposure in order to keep picture quality higher and pixellation lower. Where do you guys draw the line of sacrifice between pixellation and blurring if you have to choose one of the two?

**midget** · 10-10-2006, 11:18 PM

Originally Posted by wanghoeby

Sorry, for the hijack here.

When I was in the forests of Warshington this summer, there were a lot of photos that turned out like the attached; areas where it was over saturated. I just started getting to the point this summer where I always use manual aperture and shutter speed but have left the ISO on auto.

My hunch is that the auto ISO had something to do with this; opinions?

Saturation looks fine to me. Have you looked at those on another monitor? Also you might have saturation settings in your camera's options depending on what you have.