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  1. #1
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    I need guidance on a couple things

    Dear TGR,

    Couple questions today.....

    If your current special lady friend says that smoking butts is "a deal-breaker" with her, is it okay to decide to smoke again to make it easier to "break the deal" or is that just a super weak cop-out? Or both?

    Why do you divide by (n-1) to get sample variation? shouldn't it just be divide by (n)? I don't get that.

    Is turkey bacon TRULY evil? I had some this past weekend and it was kinda good. Even cold it was kinda good.

    Is there any difference between extra-sharp Vermont cheddar cheese and extra-sharp New York cheddar cheese, is it just where it's made?

    Thank you,

    Vinzclortho
    thats new hampshire as fuck


    We ain't eager to be legal, so please leave me with the keys to your Jeep Eagle.

  2. #2
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    Man up and get 'er done. Sounds like you get the better end of the deal if you come out not smoking...

  3. #3
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    You divide by (n-1) because your looking for the variation from your number, of all the samples not including yours. If you divided by just (n), it would throw off the variation. Or something like that.

  4. #4
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    Dividing by n would make it an biased estimator.

  5. #5
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    Hilarious that you posted this here.

    Yes, it is okay to fervently adopt habits that annoy a special lady friend in order to encourage the inner voices of said friend to rationalize the ultimate demise of the relationship.

    A cop out? Are you kidding son? It's being yourself!

  6. #6
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    Talking

    If you can quit again after she bails, then yes... I haven't been able to yet. I don't mind turkey bacon for lunch but breakfast has to be the real deal. I actually prefer Tillamook cheddar. ....

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by vinzclortho View Post
    If your current special lady friend says that smoking butts is "a deal-breaker" with her, is it okay to decide to smoke again to make it easier to "break the deal" or is that just a super weak cop-out? Or both?
    yes it is a cop out. just man up and end it in person, with grace and humility, in a way that honors what you had.

    Quote Originally Posted by vinzclortho View Post
    Why do you divide by (n-1) to get sample variation? shouldn't it just be divide by (n)? I don't get that.
    It has to do with degrees of freedom.

    When you have the actual standard deviation of a distribution, you can divide by n.

    However, when you estimate the standard deviation of a distribution by calculating the sample standard deviation (just looking at the samples you have in front of you that are drawn from some theoretical distribution), you have to divide by (n-1). It's sort of like compensating for uncertainty (dividing by n would be too "incestuous," given the fact that you're estimating using the sample).

    here is a more detailed answer for you taken from one of my favorite math sites:

    "Possibly the most frequently asked and least frequently answered question is why does the definition of the standard deviation involve division by n-1, when n might seem the obvious choice. This is a question which perplexes introductory statistics students and calculator manufacturers alike. The explanations given in calculator manuals tend to range from obscure to fanciful, and both options are given on the keypad, usually labelled sn-1 and sn to add to the confusion. (The symbol s is reserved for the standard deviation of a random variable or a population/distribution, an entity which lecturers valiantly try but usually fail to keep distinct from its sample counterpart.) Australian students first meet the standard deviation in secondary school, where the definition given does indeed involve division by n. This definition is preferred to avoid the question about the n-1 being raised it would seem. Secondary school teachers have a hard enough life as it is. And it must be remembered that the difference between the two definitions is largely academic for all but the smallest of sample sizes (say, less than 10 observations). So, don't get too agitated by the revamped definition. The truth can be told but the telling usually quells the desire to know. If the fire still burns in your belly, read on.

    The most widely accepted explanation involves the concept of unbiasedness, and I see some have stopped reading already. If you fire arrows at a target and consistently hit a mark 5 cm to the left of the bullseye, there is something wrong with your aim. It shows a bias. The definition of the sample variance which involves division by n has this flaw. It consistently underestimates the variance of the population/distribution from which the sample was drawn. The n-1 formula fixes the astigmatism. Compelling and relatively simple as this argument is, it doesn't quite ring true. Both definitions of the sample standard deviation produce biased estimates of the standard deviation of the population/distribution, although the n-1 alternative is less biased. If you're after unbiasedness, why not use a definition which gives you unbiasedness where it's needed - on the original scale of measurement, rather than on the squared scale. Such a contender exists, but it involves gamma functions in the definition, and I see quite a few more people have drifted away. (Gamma functions extend the concept of factorials to non-integers.)

    The real reason is a simple housekeeping issue. If you deal with the n-1 straight away in the definition of the standard deviation, it doesn't keep popping up in every subsequent procedure involving the standard deviation, to the increasing annoyance of all concerned. The subsequent procedures in question involve the definition of the t and c2 distributions where the issue of degrees of freedom arises. Degrees of freedom means what it says - in how many independent directions can you move at once. If you're a point moving on a page, you are moving in two dimensions and you have correspondingly two degrees of freedom. The freedom to move up the page and the freedom to move across it. Any motion on a page can be described in terms of these two independent motions. Now consider a sample of size n. It inhabits an n dimensional space. There are n degrees of freedom in total. Each sample member is free to take any value it likes, independently from all the others. If however, you fix the sample mean, then the sample values are constrained to have a fixed sum. You can let n-1 of them roam free, but the value of the remaining sample value is determined by the fixed sum. The space inhabited by the deviations from the sample mean is thus n-1 dimensional rather than n dimensional, since the deviations must sum to zero. The sum of the squared deviations, although looking like a sum of n things is actually a sum of only n-1 independent things, and its natural divisor - its degrees of freedom - is also n-1.

    But wait, there's more. Degrees of freedom will return to haunt you if and when you do analysis of variance (ANOVA to its friends). You will be ahead of the game if you grasp the concept now. Degrees of freedom can neither be created nor destroyed. You start off with n, the sample size. You use up a few trying to estimate the structure of the mean. For example, the mean could be a straight line, as in simple linear regression. You need two degrees of freedom to estimate the two characteristics possessed by all straight lines - a slope and an intercept. These characteristics are called parameters. So, two degrees of freedom have gone into the mean. This is the signal. Everything else in this model is noise. The remaining n-2 degrees of freedom go into estimating the one parameter which describes the noise - the variance. If you're not part of the solution (the signal or mean) you're part of the problem (the noise). The simplest model is the one which says the mean is a single constant, ably estimated by the sample mean. Everything else is just inexplicable variation about that constant. That's n-1 degrees of freedom's worth of noise, all kindly donated to the sample variance."

    Quote Originally Posted by vinzclortho View Post
    Is turkey bacon TRULY evil? I had some this past weekend and it was kinda good. Even cold it was kinda good.
    i am a big fan of turkey bacon, particularly trader joe's brand... made some BLT's with it this weekend ... with tomatos from the farmer's market. I cook it by the Dufrense method, in an oven at 400 degrees for about 15 minutes (8 on one side, flip, 7 on other side). It comes out great, not too crispy and not too flabby.

    Quote Originally Posted by vinzclortho View Post
    Is there any difference between extra-sharp Vermont cheddar cheese and extra-sharp New York cheddar cheese, is it just where it's made?
    I think it's just where they are made. Cheddar is from England anyways (village of Cheddar!) and has since been brought to the US. If you're going to get any, I recommend the Cabot 18mo sharp cheddar that comes in the black wax.... had some at Sugarloaf last season SO FREAKING GOOD. They sell it at trader joes.

    Quote Originally Posted by vinzclortho View Post
    thank you
    my pleasure

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeanDip4All View Post
    yes it is a cop out. just man up and end it in person, with grace and humility, in a way that honors what you had.



    It has to do with degrees of freedom.

    When you have the actual standard deviation of a distribution, you can divide by n.

    However, when you estimate the standard deviation of a distribution by calculating the sample standard deviation (just looking at the samples you have in front of you that are drawn from some theoretical distribution), you have to divide by (n-1). It's sort of like compensating for uncertainty (dividing by n would be too "incestuous," given the fact that you're estimating using the sample).

    here is a more detailed answer for you taken from one of my favorite math sites:

    "Possibly the most frequently asked and least frequently answered question is why does the definition of the standard deviation involve division by n-1, when n might seem the obvious choice. This is a question which perplexes introductory statistics students and calculator manufacturers alike. The explanations given in calculator manuals tend to range from obscure to fanciful, and both options are given on the keypad, usually labelled sn-1 and sn to add to the confusion. (The symbol s is reserved for the standard deviation of a random variable or a population/distribution, an entity which lecturers valiantly try but usually fail to keep distinct from its sample counterpart.) Australian students first meet the standard deviation in secondary school, where the definition given does indeed involve division by n. This definition is preferred to avoid the question about the n-1 being raised it would seem. Secondary school teachers have a hard enough life as it is. And it must be remembered that the difference between the two definitions is largely academic for all but the smallest of sample sizes (say, less than 10 observations). So, don't get too agitated by the revamped definition. The truth can be told but the telling usually quells the desire to know. If the fire still burns in your belly, read on.

    The most widely accepted explanation involves the concept of unbiasedness, and I see some have stopped reading already. If you fire arrows at a target and consistently hit a mark 5 cm to the left of the bullseye, there is something wrong with your aim. It shows a bias. The definition of the sample variance which involves division by n has this flaw. It consistently underestimates the variance of the population/distribution from which the sample was drawn. The n-1 formula fixes the astigmatism. Compelling and relatively simple as this argument is, it doesn't quite ring true. Both definitions of the sample standard deviation produce biased estimates of the standard deviation of the population/distribution, although the n-1 alternative is less biased. If you're after unbiasedness, why not use a definition which gives you unbiasedness where it's needed - on the original scale of measurement, rather than on the squared scale. Such a contender exists, but it involves gamma functions in the definition, and I see quite a few more people have drifted away. (Gamma functions extend the concept of factorials to non-integers.)

    The real reason is a simple housekeeping issue. If you deal with the n-1 straight away in the definition of the standard deviation, it doesn't keep popping up in every subsequent procedure involving the standard deviation, to the increasing annoyance of all concerned. The subsequent procedures in question involve the definition of the t and c2 distributions where the issue of degrees of freedom arises. Degrees of freedom means what it says - in how many independent directions can you move at once. If you're a point moving on a page, you are moving in two dimensions and you have correspondingly two degrees of freedom. The freedom to move up the page and the freedom to move across it. Any motion on a page can be described in terms of these two independent motions. Now consider a sample of size n. It inhabits an n dimensional space. There are n degrees of freedom in total. Each sample member is free to take any value it likes, independently from all the others. If however, you fix the sample mean, then the sample values are constrained to have a fixed sum. You can let n-1 of them roam free, but the value of the remaining sample value is determined by the fixed sum. The space inhabited by the deviations from the sample mean is thus n-1 dimensional rather than n dimensional, since the deviations must sum to zero. The sum of the squared deviations, although looking like a sum of n things is actually a sum of only n-1 independent things, and its natural divisor - its degrees of freedom - is also n-1.

    But wait, there's more. Degrees of freedom will return to haunt you if and when you do analysis of variance (ANOVA to its friends). You will be ahead of the game if you grasp the concept now. Degrees of freedom can neither be created nor destroyed. You start off with n, the sample size. You use up a few trying to estimate the structure of the mean. For example, the mean could be a straight line, as in simple linear regression. You need two degrees of freedom to estimate the two characteristics possessed by all straight lines - a slope and an intercept. These characteristics are called parameters. So, two degrees of freedom have gone into the mean. This is the signal. Everything else in this model is noise. The remaining n-2 degrees of freedom go into estimating the one parameter which describes the noise - the variance. If you're not part of the solution (the signal or mean) you're part of the problem (the noise). The simplest model is the one which says the mean is a single constant, ably estimated by the sample mean. Everything else is just inexplicable variation about that constant. That's n-1 degrees of freedom's worth of noise, all kindly donated to the sample variance."



    i am a big fan of turkey bacon, particularly trader joe's brand... made some BLT's with it this weekend ... with tomatos from the farmer's market. I cook it by the Dufrense method, in an oven at 400 degrees for about 15 minutes (8 on one side, flip, 7 on other side). It comes out great, not too crispy and not too flabby.



    I think it's just where they are made. Cheddar is from England anyways (village of Cheddar!) and has since been brought to the US. If you're going to get any, I recommend the Cabot 18mo sharp cheddar that comes in the black wax.... had some at Sugarloaf last season SO FREAKING GOOD. They sell it at trader joes.



    my pleasure

    I don't get it.
    Wait a minute. I don't fucking get it.
    If it weren't for serendipity, there'd be no dipity at all

  9. #9
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    "taken from one of my favorite math sites"

    something is very wrong with that statement

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by train07 View Post
    I don't get it.
    Wait a minute. I don't fucking get it.
    Here's another way to put it:

    It's because you're creating an estimate, not calculating the real thing.

    If you could have the data to calculate the real deal, you'd divide by n.

    But you don't, you're estimating, from a sample.

    So, first you estimate the mean, right? And right there, because you're not calculating the real mean, you're estimating an estimated mean, you use up a little of your estimation Ju-Ju.

    So then when you go on to estimate variation, you've got a little less estimation Ju-Ju left.

    Does that help?

    It's really all about the Ju-Ju.
    Everything is coming up Brady.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by mackstraw View Post
    "taken from one of my favorite math sites"

    something is very wrong with that statement
    dude, everyone here...EVERYONE has a favorite math site, that's how we roll.

    so to follow up, Population variance is divided by (N) because it's the whole where-as dividing by (n-1) gives you a sample (of the population) variance right? trying to wrap my head around stats these days. I'll report back prolly sunday when I have to do my take-home mid-term.

    I know it's blaphemous here, but I think I prefer turkey bacon....all the fat and grease and shit in regular bacon grosses me out kinda...I still like regular bacon but I think I may actually prefer turkey bacon. I am ready to stand up for the rights of turkey bacon lovers and to represent us as a people! Why can't we co-exist with our porkbelly loving brothers and sisters like skiers and boarders have learned to coexist? I'm tired of being discriminated against. FIGHT THE POWER

    we'll see what happens with the girl, I won't use smoking butts to distance her mostly because I don't want to smoke butts anymore...though they are delicious....

    good cheddar talk....

    thanks for the help. we'll continue this conversation later. right now I gotta find some missing hard drives in the warehouse so if anybody knows where they are that would be great....they are IBM IC25N020ATCS04-0 285274-001 07N8325 2.5inch ata 9.5mm...anybody seen them around?
    thats new hampshire as fuck


    We ain't eager to be legal, so please leave me with the keys to your Jeep Eagle.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Knight View Post
    And right there, because you're not calculating the real mean, you're estimating an estimated mean...

  13. #13
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    Laughing really hard here.....this turned into a very hilarious thread.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Knight View Post


    It's really all about the Ju-Ju.
    Actually, it's really all about the fucking bagels.
    If it weren't for serendipity, there'd be no dipity at all

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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeanDip4All View Post
    BeanDip - you are out of control. Please tell me you copy and pasted that from somewhere! I was just going to say "degrees of freedom" and let it go.

  17. #17
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    My next question is this:

    does the strike zone in baseball change depending on the height of the batter? if it does change, couldn't a team hire a midget to pinch hit because the strike zone would be so small and close to the ground that a midget would be walked every single time? once the midget got walked, couldn't a pinch runner (non-midget sized) take over at first? I mean it seems like a great way to a) guarantee a player on first and possibly walk in a run, every time and b) see midgets all summer. OH AND, imagine how awesome it would be when there was a bench clearing brawl and the team's two midgets had to fight eachother OR a midget charging the mound?!?!? that's it, I hereby give up my post as head Knights Templar of the L.O.T.B.S. (League Of Turkey Bacon Supporters) and I am going to follow my true calling as a midget baseball agent. BOOYAH!!!!
    thats new hampshire as fuck


    We ain't eager to be legal, so please leave me with the keys to your Jeep Eagle.

  18. #18
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    Hey vinz...

    First, der poopenhausen, and then roll over and light up an unfiltered Camel.
    Quando paramucho mi amore de felice carathon.
    Mundo paparazzi mi amore cicce verdi parasol.
    Questo abrigado tantamucho que canite carousel.


  19. #19
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    WOW. If you just google image "midget" you get some awesome shit...














    Pretty sure this is basom partying with midgets. Go basom!
    thats new hampshire as fuck


    We ain't eager to be legal, so please leave me with the keys to your Jeep Eagle.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by irul&ublo View Post

    First, der poopenhausen, and then roll over and light up an unfiltered Camel.

    for once I agree with you. I like where your head is at.
    thats new hampshire as fuck


    We ain't eager to be legal, so please leave me with the keys to your Jeep Eagle.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by vinzclortho View Post
    My next question is this:

    does the strike zone in baseball change depending on the height of the batter? if it does change, couldn't a team hire a midget to pinch hit because the strike zone would be so small and close to the ground that a midget would be walked every single time?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_Gaedel



    On the same note, couldn't the Colorado Avalanche just drop this guy in front of their goal?


  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by vinzclortho View Post
    My next question is this:

    does the strike zone in baseball change depending on the height of the batter? if it does change, couldn't a team hire a midget to pinch hit because the strike zone would be so small and close to the ground that a midget would be walked every single time? once the midget got walked, couldn't a pinch runner (non-midget sized) take over at first? I mean it seems like a great way to a) guarantee a player on first and possibly walk in a run, every time and b) see midgets all summer. OH AND, imagine how awesome it would be when there was a bench clearing brawl and the team's two midgets had to fight eachother OR a midget charging the mound?!?!? that's it, I hereby give up my post as head Knights Templar of the L.O.T.B.S. (League Of Turkey Bacon Supporters) and I am going to follow my true calling as a midget baseball agent. BOOYAH!!!!
    The strike zone is from the shoulders to the knees so if you have shorter legs, or short overall then your strike zone is smaller, or if you bend at the waist and lower your shoulders in your stance then the same thing happens. I think it was the promotions machine- Bill Veeck owner of the Chi White Sox (and other teams in his life), that years ago actually did hire a little person (as they prefer to be called over midget) and put him in for an at bat. He was under 4 foot tall and walked on 4 pitches. This was under Veeck's ownership tenture of the St. Louis Browns.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_Gaedel
    Last edited by RShea; 10-20-2007 at 01:38 PM.

  23. #23
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    1.Just weak
    2.Math blows and who really needs it
    3.turkey is just a foul beast that farmers have sex with.
    4.There is no difference both are made in china and contain lead

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeanDip4All View Post
    It has to do with degrees of freedom.

    When you have the actual standard deviation of a distribution, you can divide by n.

    However, when you estimate the standard deviation of a distribution by calculating the sample standard deviation (just looking at the samples you have in front of you that are drawn from some theoretical distribution), you have to divide by (n-1). It's sort of like compensating for uncertainty (dividing by n would be too "incestuous," given the fact that you're estimating using the sample).

    here is a more detailed answer for you taken from one of my favorite math sites:
    Math is SOOOO hot right now.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by iceclimb View Post
    Math is SOOOO hot right now.
    true.

    today's question, when using a random number generator, where N=95 and you want 10 random numbers, does the number "01" count as a valid random number or do you skip it and go to the next one. I've checked 2 of my favorite math sites and can't find anything.

    the other conundrum today is where the FUCK do I find a good sandwich near Pickering Wharf in Salem? Cross-eyed Jimmy across the street is just gross, the place down the street has good sandwiches but they skimp on the fillings...lil help?
    thats new hampshire as fuck


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